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consumedconvert
Guest
I think you here make the mistake of assuming you know what God wants in this particular situation.
Who can know the mind of God?
Except, that is, through the Church.
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Who can know the mind of God?
Except, that is, through the Church.
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consumedconvert
Guest
We don’t borrow Luther’s theology. Consider his most famous hymn:
A mighty Fortress is our God
A bulwark never failing.
Our helper he amidst the flood,
Against all mortal ills prevailing.
But still our ancient foe
Doth seek to work us woe
His craft and power are great
And armed with cruel hate;
On earth is not his equal.
What is in this hymn for a Catholic to object to? The lyrics are triumphant, the tune is powerful, it’s fantastic!
Who cares if Luther wrote it? It’s a great song!
It is quite true that Luther was a heretic, and quite true that he was a terrible thing for the Church. I’ve heard it expressed that he was God’s punishment his people for their wordliness duirng the High Middle Ages. Who knows.
But gifted men who care nothing for the Church can create fantastic Religious Art. Just look at the great Renaissance Artists. Most of them were not shining examples of Catholic piety; yet we use their works in our older sacred spaces and admire them. This is as it should be; their gifts are from God. As Martin Luther’s gift for hymnody originated with God.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Has anyone really read the Battle Hymn of the Republic?
I am very Southern United States and it is a beautiful tune but the words offend me and often turn my stomach.
Slavery is rampant is this song. My Grandmother loved to play it on her pump organ. She was born in 1885 so you can guess where she came from.
I do like Amazing Grace. I was once lost but now am found.
Hear it with bagpipes. I want it at my funeral. And my husband’s.
Any good God type places in Scotland?
The BHOTR is entirely out of place in the Liturgy. Anything taken up with earthly rivalries is: our homeland is Heaven, not earth. Besides, the Church should be one in heart when gathered to worship God, & we can’t be that if we are separated by hymns - or anything else.
What do you mean by a “God type place” ?I loathe “Amazing Grace” on the pipes: & the bagpipes are war-pipes anyway
- so stuff like that is completely inappropriate. It’s a good hymn - but it’s not fit for the bagpipes. It’s as corny, played on them, as those tartans invented for people with not a drop of Scots blood in their veins 
If the tune for the BHOTR could be re-arranged, & fitted for a hymn to be sung to it, it might not be secular any longer, & might be approriate for the Church’s Worship. Guitars - & tambourines - should be banned
For ever.
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latinmass
Guest
I am speaking from what the Church has stated, in the N.O. there has been occassions of rock music etc. which goes against the rubrics of the Mass and are illicit, but “the people” wanted it. I am sure you are aware of the abuses that have happened in N.O. from crazy “music ministers” sometimes we have the tail wagging the dog in the N.O.
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latinmass
Guest
Who cares if heretics who have been excommunicated play a part in our Mass? God does. Don’t disrespect what His son has done for us by allowing those who have disregarded His presence in our mass, to now play a part in it. Thank you for a perfect example of relativism.
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Cat
Guest
I’ve been thinking a lot about this over the past several days. You see that I haven’t posted in this thread because I wanted to really mull over it.
I’ve been examining my conscience to see if I am practicing “reverse snobbery,” i.e., glorifying in being “common.”
I stand my my original post. I have no qualms of conscience or conviction of any sinful attitude in my heart.
I just a read a post on another thread in which the poster denounced Novus Ordo, charismatic movement, and Life Teen as “dumbing down.” To me, this reinforced what I was saying. Many Catholics don’t seem to realize that others aren’t like them. We are all different, we all have different levels of comprehension and appreciation of various music forms, and that’s OK.
I consider the NO, the charismatic movement, and the Life Teen program rich and of great value to our souls. The Church has pronounced that all of the above are good. In fact, the Church places the Novus Ordo Mass on equal footing with the TLM.
Today I also talked with several older Catholics, including a priest, that I admire a great deal because of their sacrificial life. I picked their brains, so to speak, and tried to assess my own opinions in the light of their older and more experienced Catholicism.
They love the “modern” music and the OF of the Mass. They love Protestant hymns if they do not contradict Catholic teaching. They gave me their personal testimonies of what these things mean to them. They want to see these things continue.
If I sounded like I was criticizing those who like more ancient music styles and Mass forms, I do apologize. I respect everyone’s personal preference in musical styles. I myself was trained as a classical pianist. I am an active member of the local music club and our goal is to keep chamber music alive and thriving in our region. I am the chair of a classical music scholarship competition in my city that attracts over a hundred young musicians.
I am very fortunate that in our diocese, indeed, in our city, both forms of the Holy Mass are available on a daily basis. My personal belief is that the Catholic Church should strive to offer both forms in the U.S. in as many dioceses, cities, and parishes as possible. I realize that because of expenses and human limitations, this isn’t always possible.
I sympathize with those who really hate the Mass where they live, and I feel that if someone is actually suffering in their faith and considering quitting the Catholic Church or joining a schismatic group or a Protestant fellowship because of the lack of their preferred Mass form and musical styles, that the person should make every effort to pick up stakes and move to a location where they can be fully satisfied. I realize that young people still living at home cannot do this, but I hope that they will stick it out at their Mass until they are old enough to move away to a place where their preferred Mass is offered.
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maryanna36
Guest
I’m with you, Cat… I want people to have the Mass that will bring them closer to God; whether it is the TLM or the NO. Having both forms of the Mass reaches people from the entire Catholic spectrum from traditional to progressive. Isn’t that what all of us want? That we are ONE?
We need to stop cutting people down and throwing them into the fire just because they prefer one type of Mass over the other. Or one type of music over another. There is room in the Catholic Church for all of us.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I am curious why you would not put Tertullian and Origen in the same class as Luther.
I thought that there were certain prayers in the Mass written by Tertullian and Origen (as many of the prayers at Mass are taken from the writings of the early Church Fathers). I know that, at the very least, there are some quotations from Origen in the Litrugy of the Hours.
Even so, Benedict XVI saw fit to include both Tertullian and Origen in his recent series of Catechesis on the Fathers of the Church.
I’m not sure why we have to discard everything that was written by a non-Catholic solely because they are not Catholic. Such an approach would certainly hamper any ecumenical efforts. Of course, I am not trying to say we water down the faith or dismiss differences. But part of our evangelization of other people requires that we affirm the truth, beauty, and goodness of what they already have.
I’ll take “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” over “Sing a New Church” any day.
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GemmaRose
Guest
I just found this thread last night and have read through every post.
Cat, your posts on this thread have been some of your very finest. I cannot find even one word with which to disagree. I am proud that you are my sister in Christ and in the Church.
Unfortunately, I feel as though I cannot say the same about many other posters. . .
Just the many different opinions in this thread proves we all have different tastes, in music, in Mass forms. Since we are not speaking of out-and-out abuses, but preferences, one preference is as valid as any other.
For those of you who seem to have no other life but to bash music from the 70’s and 80’s, I say: (1) go to a Mass which has music that you *do * like, and (2) are you saying that all of us “baby boomers” who do like such music at Mass should just leave the Church and take our preferences with us? (And, as I’ve said in other threads, many of those 70’s and 80’s songs are taken directly from Scripture, as opposed to some of the “traditional” dreck printed in so many hymnals.)
For those with a problem with hymns written by heretics, despite their being nothing wrong with the hymn itself, might I remind you that what caused the Reformation in the first place was the corrupt practices and clergy of HMC at the time? Martin Luther was not the *only * guilty party. (And yes, in case you’re wondering, I am a Cradle Catholic.)
For those who think Gregorian chant sounds “creepy” - that is a subjective opinion which is just as valid as those of the opinion that there should be nothing else but Gregorian chant.
What I find distressing and tiresome are posts such as:
None of Cat’s posts show anything but complete sincerity. This attack was thoroughly uncalled for and unfair.
Another favorite:
I would agree that sitting at Mass and “listening” to music might be distracting. However, that is not what one should be doing! Mass is the community worshipping together. From the very earliest days of the Church, worship was a community action, not a solo spectator sport. Therefore, when there is music, sing it! It is another form of participation in the Mass, another form of prayer. Sitting back and thinking, *“I don’t like this music” * is not praying.
There is so much truth in the following post:
Some seem incessantly displeased with everything.
And certainly let us not forget:
(I didn’t realize that we had amongst us someone privy to the mind of God.
)I seriously doubt that some posters have a clue as to the meaning of the 18th Chapter of Luke:
P.S. From what I see, most of the argumentative and divisive posts on this thread have not even tried to answer the OP’s question.
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Yeah, everyone who disagrees with you doesn’t have a clue. Real humble of you.
Seriously, if you want to join the debate, make your points and share your info. Heaping praise on one member and making snide remarks about everyone else is just a passive-aggressive way to be “argumentative and divisive” without seeming so.
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slyboots
Guest
Coming from a mainstream protestant church upbringing I have great love for many of the hymns I learned as a child. As a music major and chorister I loved to sing them even in college and even when I doubted my faith.
Charles Wesley’s hymnody is truly inspired.
cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/e/s/wesley_c.htm
Other hymns I was raised on:
hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh189.sht
cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/h/e/whenisur.htm
cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/oncetoev.htm
[cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/e/lettb(name removed by moderator).htm](http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/e/lettb(name removed by moderator).htm)
And there are many more.
Charles Wesley’s hymnody is truly inspired.
cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/e/s/wesley_c.htm
Other hymns I was raised on:
hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh189.sht
cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/h/e/whenisur.htm
cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/oncetoev.htm
[cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/e/lettb(name removed by moderator).htm](http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/e/lettb(name removed by moderator).htm)
And there are many more.
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ibkc
Guest
C
Cat
Guest
Thanks so much for your kind words.I just found this thread last night and have read through every post.
Cat, your posts on this thread have been some of your very finest. I cannot find even one word with which to disagree. I am proud that you are my sister in Christ and in the Church.
Unfortunately, I feel as though I cannot say the same about many other posters. . .
Just the many different opinions in this thread proves we all have different tastes, in music, in Mass forms. Since we are not speaking of out-and-out abuses, but preferences, one preference is as valid as any other.
For those of you who seem to have no other life but to bash music from the 70’s and 80’s, I say: (1) go to a Mass which has music that you *do * like, and (2) are you saying that all of us “baby boomers” who do like such music at Mass should just leave the Church and take our preferences with us? (And, as I’ve said in other threads, many of those 70’s and 80’s songs are taken directly from Scripture, as opposed to some of the “traditional” dreck printed in so many hymnals.)
For those with a problem with hymns written by heretics, despite their being nothing wrong with the hymn itself, might I remind you that what caused the Reformation in the first place was the corrupt practices and clergy of HMC at the time? Martin Luther was not the *only * guilty party. (And yes, in case you’re wondering, I am a Cradle Catholic.)
For those who think Gregorian chant sounds “creepy” - that is a subjective opinion which is just as valid as those of the opinion that there should be nothing else but Gregorian chant.
What I find distressing and tiresome are posts such as:
None of Cat’s posts show anything but complete sincerity. This attack was thoroughly uncalled for and unfair.
Another favorite:
I would agree that sitting at Mass and “listening” to music might be distracting. However, that is not what one should be doing! Mass is the community worshipping together. From the very earliest days of the Church, worship was a community action, not a solo spectator sport. Therefore, when there is music, sing it! It is another form of participation in the Mass, another form of prayer. Sitting back and thinking, *“I don’t like this music” * is not praying.
There is so much truth in the following post:
Some seem incessantly displeased with everything.
And certainly let us not forget:
(I didn’t realize that we had amongst us someone privy to the mind of God.
I seriously doubt that some posters have a clue as to the meaning of the 18th Chapter of Luke:
P.S. From what I see, most of the argumentative and divisive posts on this thread have not even tried to answer the OP’s question.
I try to be both honest and respectful in my posts, which is not always easy.
I am going to do something that I probably shouldn’t do. I’m going to write out the words to a song that I wrote back in the 1980s, long before I ever dreamed that someday I would be Catholic. It’s not a hymn suitable for congregational singing; it’s a solo piece or maybe children’s choir.
This is my husband’s favorite song that I have ever written. And after we became Catholic, he brought it to me and said, “See?! It’s the Mystery of Faith. You wrote it into a song and you weren’t even Catholic! How did that happen?”
It’s not exactly the mystery of faith, but’s it’s pretty close. And how, HOW did I ever write about “wrapping the Body of the Lord carefully?” Back when I was Protestant, no one considered this important. But I did. How? Why?
And how did I know that a colored light signifies that Jesus is present? Who taught me this? I hope that when next you see the read light burning next to the tabernacle in your church that you remember the words to my song.
We have seen this over and over again in my songs and in the songs of other Protestants. We believe that there is a longing in the hearts of Protestants for the truth of the Catholic Church, and it is in their music that this longing often is expressed. We believe that the Holy Spirit gives lyrics to Protestants that express the Truth of the Catholic Church, and that these songs are used by the Holy Spirit to bring Protestants HOME to the Catholic Church, as well as to minister to Catholics.
For this reason, I disagree strongly with the opinion that hymns and songs written by Protestants should be ignored or rejected. I believe that we need to examine the hymns that we sing, yes, and reject those that are contrary to Catholic teaching. But to throw out a song just because it was written by a Protestant would be to throw out songs like this:
Christmas Lights
Every Christmas Daddy brings
the lights down from their attic box.
And we watch him untangle strings
and check to make sure each bulb works.
Then Daddy hangs them upon the tree.
Glittering, shining, for you and me.
Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by,
“Jesus, the Light
of the world is born.
Hallelujah, Glory!”
God the Father looked through the dark
and saw His children, lost and sad.
So He opened up His heart, gave Jesus.
Children, be ye glad!
But we hung Him upon a tree,
Suffering, dying, for you and me.
Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by,
“Jesus, the Light
of the world has died.
Hallelujah, Glory!”
Take down the tree, wrap the lights carefully.
Hide them away 'til that wonderful day
When the lights once again
light the way for all men.
Children come!
Daddy’s done.
Gather close.
The Light arose!
Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by
"Jesus, the Light of the world is risen.
“Hallelujah, Glory!”
(Sharon Whitlock, 1985)
If you like the words to this song, I don’t mind if you print the poem and share it with people. I only ask that you add my name and the date, please. Thanks.
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pnewton
Guest
To the original post, I believe most refer to Protestant hymns as those frequently found in Protestant hymnals, even though today even many Protestants use hymns sparingly.
I had a neat opportunity for my mom to visit for her first regular Mass the other day. I could not resisit the and including a few traditional Baptist hymns from Gather, especially as they were very appropriate for the readings and not theologically objectionable. It is amazing how loud everyone sang and how many commented on it afterwards. We have a lot of converts in my parish. In fact, among the Anglo’s, we have more converts than cradle Catholics.
I had a neat opportunity for my mom to visit for her first regular Mass the other day. I could not resisit the and including a few traditional Baptist hymns from Gather, especially as they were very appropriate for the readings and not theologically objectionable. It is amazing how loud everyone sang and how many commented on it afterwards. We have a lot of converts in my parish. In fact, among the Anglo’s, we have more converts than cradle Catholics.
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Chris_McAvoy
Guest
Nothing wrong with using protestant hymns but to use Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic hymns is never remotely considered.
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slyboots
Guest
I guess I would assume that though the theology of EO or EC hymns would be in keeping with Catholic theology, perhaps the language barrier is the problem in some cases. Perhaps the hymns are written to be sung in the cultural language of the congregation?
My friend who is Antiochian Orthodox has remarked many of their songs are in Middle Eastern languages.
I don’t know if this is generally the case. Please let me know.
Edit: I see I was mistaken. And the words to this Christmas Hymn certainly could be sung by Catholics.
antiochian.org/sacredmusic/pdf/MGF_0064a_Nat(XC).H%20to%20Theo.A.pdf
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Joe_5859
Guest
Is this supposed to be tongue-in-cheek or are you serious? (Sometimes I miss these things!
) If you are serious, I’d be interested to hear your explanation of this.
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GemmaRose
Guest
And I suppose that all the other posters on this thread can claim humility as their greatest virtue? Oh, please! I can count on the fingers of one hand how many posters on this thread, and many other threads in this forum, post with humility, and apparently you seem to not have a clue either.
I stand by every word I said in my prior post and have a clear conscience.
I made many good points in my post. Obviously, you have chosen to ignore them.
I will try to rephrase and clarify my position.
Cat is a liturgical musician (as am I). Every post in this forum which touches on liturgical music contains rants about “Protestant” songs sung during Mass.
Cat asked a very legitimate question, especially in view of her ministry to HMC, as to which songs people would consider “Protestant” and why.
This thread (as so many others) has degenerated into a free-for-all bashing session of, among other things, Vatican II, the NO, those who prefer the NO, any musical piece written after 1962, anything written by a Protestant no matter the content of the song.
Very few have answered Cat’s initial question, which can be answered very simply and easily in the following manner:
I would call [such and such song] “Protestant” because [give your reasoning].
Short, sweet, and to the point.
Additionally, since you also seem to be clueless (I’m using your terminology, not mine) as to the Scripture reference, let me rephrase that also: Luke 18 -
Now, why doesn’t everyone calm down, think charitably, and post an answer to the OP’s question without bashing your fellow Catholic brother or sister.
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ibkc
Guest
Everyone is calm. The thread is over a month old, and it had not been posted to in quite a while before you pulled it back up to wag your finger at everyone.
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CradleCath
Guest
No, it was not a charitable way to make her point, nor was Gemma Rose’s post. It’s strange to see posters telling OTHERS to be kind & caring…when they are so insulting themselves.
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