Protestant hymns?

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My statement earlier was ment to highlight the tragedy of Eastern Catholic hymns in the vernacular being ignored at the expense of protestant hymns influence.

Simply because Protestants hymns have tremendous exposure in the english speaking world they become the influence on the Catholic Churches music. Not an influence of theological truth but an influence of cultural familiarity and convenience.

However in most of the Slavic Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches since the 1950’s there have been many translations of hymns into english. Today this has reached a point where most slavic churches use english are their entire hymnological and liturgical language. These beautiful hymns are not known by the west because the eastern churches are viewed as culturally peculiar even though their theology is as orthodox as can be.

Lex orandi legem statuit orandi - the theology of worship behind this oft-repeated tag is more profoundly appreciated in the east than in the west. Orthodox theology is right belief and right worship - they are inseparably two sides of the same coin. The worshipping community respect the divine glory by ritual action. Eastern Catholicism is ritualistic because it believes worship to be first and foremost doxology.
 
Here we present many splendid examples of both eastern and western chant sung in the vernacular english by hardworking monasteries, mission parishes and musicological experts.
by browsing sites such as these one can find entire sections dedicated to vernacular english chant:

musicarussica.com/disclist.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-layout=CD_Detail&-response=disclist.lasso&mus_rus_cat_no=I&activate=yes&-maxrecords=all&-sortfield=mus_rus_cat_no&-SortOrder=descend&-search
liturgica.com
monasterygreetings.com

Third Antiphon “This is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice and be glad in it”
“We have seen the true light; we have received the heavenly Spirit; we have found the true faith, as we worship the undivided Trinity; for the Trinity has saved us.”

Akathist of Thanksgiving - Kontakion 13 - All Bountiful and Life-Giving Trinity

O all bountiful and life-giving Trinity, accept this gratitude for all of Your mercies and make us worthy of your Divine gifts so that having multiplied the talents given us, we may enter into the eternal joy of our Lord with victorious praise: Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.

Akathist of Thanksgiving - Kontakion for the Holy New Martyrs of Russia

"Rejoice, O Life-Giving Cross” - Vespers Sticheron from Sunday of the Veneration of the Cross, Tone 5

“Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us” (Trisagion hymn)


"Let my prayer arise in Thy sight as incense, and let the lifting up of my hands be an evening sacrifice.

There is also a growing body of gregorian chant in the english vernacular coming into use among the benedictine and trappist abbeys. Here are a few examples which are spectular:

GATES OF HOLINESS: Lauds and Vespers sung by the Trappist Monks of St. Joseph’s Abbey

monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item2202_track2.mp3 - Opening Verse
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item2202_track3.mp3 - Hymn
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item2202_track4.mp3 - Psalm 117

GREGORIAN CHANT IN LATIN & ENGLISH, For Lent & Easter - St. Meinrad Archabbey
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item1998_track1.mp3
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item1998_track2.mp3
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item1998_track13.mp3
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item1998_track14.mp3

St. Meinrad has published over 2000 traditional gregorian chant melodies into english with translation superior to the anything done by the ICEL.

O Day of Resurrection; Liturgy of the Hours for Sunday - Monks of New Camaldoli Hermitage
monasterygreetings.com/sounds/item2677_track23.mp3

Hopefully the monasteries of the Latin Catholic Church will become bastions of orthodox beauty from which the parishners can discover the purest form of musical prayer.
 
“I know that this seems detestable in your sight because you are smarter. I ask you to try to come out of your tower and walk among the regular folks …”

I am sorry if this seemed uncharitable. I didn’t mean it to be.

Some people truly are smarter than others. I know a lot of people who are smarter than me (including my husband). No insult was intended by calling people on this board “smarter.” And of course for someone who is smart, lesser things may very well be hard for them to tolerate (detestable).

My husband gets very impatient when people do “stupid” things like forget to plug in their computer and then call him for help. And he is so intelligent that conversations about which quarterback will play for Chicago this year will not hold his attention. (Over the years he has learned to talk sports with other men in order to “fit in.” But he would rather discuss the history of language development in Europe.)

And the phrase “come out of your tower and walk among the regular folks” was meant to be a word picture, not an uncharitable taunt.

People who are smarter do walk in a different plain. It’s often difficult for them to see other points of view. Why do you suppose “brains” and “geeks” are often unpopular? While everyone is raving about a rock star and using “street language” to express their admiration, the “brain” is analyzing the star’s visual appeal, vocal techniques, chord sequences, variations of the pieces, and comparing and contrasting the star and their music to Berlioz. Say what?!

I find some of the discussions about chant and polyphony on this forum rather daunting. I don’t understand this form of music at all and would much rather listen to music that has more melody. But I get the feeling that some people with a lot of intelligence consider melody “low” music compared to chant and Palestrina.

Well, the Church has certainly elevated Gregorian chant to a place of honor, and so the claim that it is “higher” is justified. But that doesn’t mean that everyone will love it or understand it. I certainly don’t.
 
“I know that this seems detestable in your sight because you are smarter. I ask you to try to come out of your tower and walk among the regular folks …”

I am sorry if this seemed uncharitable. I didn’t mean it to be.

Some people truly are smarter than others. I know a lot of people who are smarter than me (including my husband). No insult was intended by calling people on this board “smarter.” And of course for someone who is smart, lesser things may very well be hard for them to tolerate (detestable).

My husband gets very impatient when people do “stupid” things like forget to plug in their computer and then call him for help. And he is so intelligent that conversations about which quarterback will play for Chicago this year will not hold his attention. (Over the years he has learned to talk sports with other men in order to “fit in.” But he would rather discuss the history of language development in Europe.)

And the phrase “come out of your tower and walk among the regular folks” was meant to be a word picture, not an uncharitable taunt.

People who are smarter do walk in a different plain. It’s often difficult for them to see other points of view. Why do you suppose “brains” and “geeks” are often unpopular? While everyone is raving about a rock star and using “street language” to express their admiration, the “brain” is analyzing the star’s visual appeal, vocal techniques, chord sequences, variations of the pieces, and comparing and contrasting the star and their music to Berlioz. Say what?!

I find some of the discussions about chant and polyphony on this forum rather daunting. I don’t understand this form of music at all and would much rather listen to music that has more melody. But I get the feeling that some people with a lot of intelligence consider melody “low” music compared to chant and Palestrina.

Well, the Church has certainly elevated Gregorian chant to a place of honor, and so the claim that it is “higher” is justified. But that doesn’t mean that everyone will love it or understand it. I certainly don’t.
What I don’t understand is why you would sell yourself short like this.

I guarantee you that you could become accustomed to chant and polyphony. I don’t understand how these things became so inaccessible. It’s not as if anyone is born knowing how to read chant notation. Everyone has to learn it at some point.

I really think you are underestimating your own intelligence with this post. I’m certain that if you made an honest effort to familiarize yourself with it you would not only develop an affinity for it, but you would also be able to perform it (aren’t you also a musician?).

Just my thoughts anyway.
 
What I don’t understand is why you would sell yourself short like this.

I guarantee you that you could become accustomed to chant and polyphony. I don’t understand how these things became so inaccessible. It’s not as if anyone is born knowing how to read chant notation. Everyone has to learn it at some point.

I really think you are underestimating your own intelligence with this post. I’m certain that if you made an honest effort to familiarize yourself with it you would not only develop an affinity for it, but you would also be able to perform it (aren’t you also a musician?).

Just my thoughts anyway.
I play piano. I assume piano and chant aren’t compatible, other than to give a starting pitch and perhaps practice the note line. I’ve done a few accompaniments for some Latin stuff that our parish has done–all I do is play the notes, and it really sounds bad, since they don’t know what’s going on and a piano is basically a “following” instrument, not a leading instrument like organ.
 
I find some of the discussions about chant and polyphony on this forum rather daunting. I don’t understand this form of music at all and would much rather listen to music that has more melody…
Well, the Church has certainly elevated Gregorian chant to a place of honor, and so the claim that it is “higher” is justified. But that doesn’t mean that everyone will love it or understand it. I certainly don’t.
And to this the other user responded that you may become accustomed to it and love it with more exposure.

These are true statements which many people agree with.
All that one needs is basic church music education, collaboration and compromise to produce the best results.

It is sad that Chant and older traditional styles of liturgical music have become unknown and foreign.

However if one simply visits an eastern catholic church or listens to the links I have posted they can see that there is immense variety in our traditional music and chant. And in the Eastern Churches the traditional music (frequently in english) is a not regarded as strange or foreign.

The variety is unlimited. If someone feels that there is less melisma and improvisation in the typical “Solesme” interpretation of gregorian chant they can try Marcel Peres, Corsican or perhaps even Anglican use interpretation instead.

There truly is no limit to our liturgical music. Ideally inculturation modifies chant to be whatever it has to be. All that traditionalists and Popes will ask is that one does not take the modern commercial rock music and replace the words “I love you baby” with “I love you Jesus”
 
I think diversity is great, but not every parish has to manifest every culture. My parish is mostly Protestant converts, hispanics and immigrants. We would not incorporated Slavic culture into our music. Instead, we use traditional Catholic hymns, acceptable Protestant hymns and some Spanish hymns. There are many Churches in Texas that are Slavic and I have heard such music, although I couldn’t sing them or understand them.
 
I think diversity is great, but not every parish has to manifest every culture. My parish is mostly Protestant converts, hispanics and immigrants. We would not incorporated Slavic culture into our music. Instead, we use traditional Catholic hymns, acceptable Protestant hymns and some Spanish hymns. There are many Churches in Texas that are Slavic and I have heard such music, although I couldn’t sing them or understand them.
I think that pnewton has raised a good point–culture. I and so many other Catholics are Protestant converts and we came out of that culture. I know that many converts love traditional Catholic music and immerse themselves in it.

I don’t hate traditional Catholic music at all. I love many of the hymns when they are sung in English. (I have always disliked songs in foreign languages, even when I was a child.)

We sang a lot of Catholic hymns in my Protestant churches. Yes, we did! “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” was one of the most frequently sung hymns in our “traditional” worship services. It’s in Christian and Missionary Alliance Hymnal (Hymns of the Christian Life), and this denomination is not exactly friendly towards Catholicism. All the words are the same. The thing we did differently in the Protestant churches is that we didn’t repeat the last phrase in the song. And we didn’t do that little grace note thing that Catholics do on the last syllable of “infinite” and on the first syllable of “domain.” I really don’t like that grace note thing. Just personal preference, but I think it sounds nervous. I don’t play it on the piano when we sing it in Mass.

Because I wasn’t raised on chant like some of you were, I don’t get the same feelings of “home” that many of you get when you hear it. It doesn’t conjure up images of safety and love and God and Church and holiness at all for me, whereas some of you consider it utterly sublime. That’s your “culture.” It’s hard for me to fit in with that.

OTOH, I get those feelings of “hearth and home” when I hear Sandi Patty anthems, “Just As I Am,” or some of the old Ralph Carmichael songs like “He’s Everything To Me.”
That’s MY culture, and many of you probably can’t see why I can possibly get weepy about this kind of music.

We’re just different, that’s all.
 
This is my husband’s favorite song that I have ever written. And after we became Catholic, he brought it to me and said, “See?! It’s the Mystery of Faith. You wrote it into a song and you weren’t even Catholic! How did that happen?”

It’s not exactly the mystery of faith, but’s it’s pretty close. And how, HOW did I ever write about “wrapping the Body of the Lord carefully?” Back when I was Protestant, no one considered this important. But I did. How? Why?

And how did I know that a colored light signifies that Jesus is present? Who taught me this? I hope that when next you see the read light burning next to the tabernacle in your church that you remember the words to my song.

We have seen this over and over again in my songs and in the songs of other Protestants. We believe that there is a longing in the hearts of Protestants for the truth of the Catholic Church, and it is in their music that this longing often is expressed. We believe that the Holy Spirit gives lyrics to Protestants that express the Truth of the Catholic Church, and that these songs are used by the Holy Spirit to bring Protestants HOME to the Catholic Church, as well as to minister to Catholics.

For this reason, I disagree strongly with the opinion that hymns and songs written by Protestants should be ignored or rejected. I believe that we need to examine the hymns that we sing, yes, and reject those that are contrary to Catholic teaching. But to throw out a song just because it was written by a Protestant would be to throw out songs like this:

Christmas Lights

Every Christmas Daddy brings
the lights down from their attic box.
And we watch him untangle strings
and check to make sure each bulb works.
Then Daddy hangs them upon the tree.
Glittering, shining, for you and me.
Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by,
“Jesus, the Light
of the world is born.
Hallelujah, Glory!”

God the Father looked through the dark
and saw His children, lost and sad.
So He opened up His heart, gave Jesus.
Children, be ye glad!
But we hung Him upon a tree,
Suffering, dying, for you and me.
Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by,
“Jesus, the Light
of the world has died.
Hallelujah, Glory!”

Take down the tree, wrap the lights carefully.
Hide them away 'til that wonderful day
When the lights once again
light the way for all men.
Children come!
Daddy’s done.
Gather close.
The Light arose!

Colored lights on a Christmas tree
Telling all who pass by
"Jesus, the Light of the world is risen.
“Hallelujah, Glory!”

(Sharon Whitlock, 1985)

If you like the words to this song, I don’t mind if you print the poem and share it with people. I only ask that you add my name and the date, please. Thanks.
Many of the Protestant denominations came from the Church, it isn’t that surprising that some of the symbolism which Catholics associate with Our Lord have remained in the Protestant traditions, even if in a subliminal/neglected way.

Many of those traditions also come directly from the Bible, Our Lord’s body being prepared for burial, the cloths which Simon Peter found at the empty tomb.

Again there are various times when the “light of Christ” is mentioned, either in the Bible or in the more traditional hymns which the Protestant tradition has retained.

To be honest with you even if we were to look at Pagan rituals or ceremonies and view them through the lens of Catholic symbolism we’d probably find a lot of points. For example Pagan ceremonies may involve waiting on the Sun to rise or coming to the ceremony in darkness, just as we do at the Christmas and Easter Vigil. They may involve incense and fire, they may have songs which can be construed, if looked at in a certain way, as speaking about Christ and His Resurrection. That doesn’t mean that when Pagans convert to the Church we should introduce Pagan rituals so they feel more at home, nor should we introduce hymns which are not entirely Catholic in nature.

It is not about saying this was written by a Protestant or this by a Catholic, its about saying whether this is an appropriate song for the Mass according to what the Church has said on it, and thats means going by the Church Documents and not what lay liturgical experts might have to say on it.

The song may be appropriate for a carol concert or a school concert, but I don’t think it should be used at a Christmas Day Mass or the Christmas Vigil.

The Church does not place a limit on what we listen to in our private time. When you go home you can listen to Protestant hymns till your hearts content, in the car you can play them, even in private prayer at home you could play it in the background. But when it comes to the Mass it should be the Catholic tradition and, to the fullest possible extent, the Catholic musical tradition which is heard, to dilute that with Protestant hymns, especially those which are doctrinally flawed is not appropriate.
We sang a lot of Catholic hymns in my Protestant churches. Yes, we did! “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” was one of the most frequently sung hymns in our “traditional” worship services. It’s in Christian and Missionary Alliance Hymnal (Hymns of the Christian Life), and this denomination is not exactly friendly towards Catholicism. All the words are the same. The thing we did differently in the Protestant churches is that we didn’t repeat the last phrase in the song.

And we didn’t do that little grace note thing that Catholics do on the last syllable of “infinite” and on the first syllable of “domain.” I really don’t like that grace note thing. Just personal preference, but I think it sounds nervous. I don’t play it on the piano when we sing it in Mass.

Because I wasn’t raised on chant like some of you were, I don’t get the same feelings of “home” that many of you get when you hear it. It doesn’t conjure up images of safety and love and God and Church and holiness at all for me, whereas some of you consider it utterly sublime. That’s your “culture.” It’s hard for me to fit in with that.
And what effect does missing out that repeat have? It decreases the emphasis which was obviously intended to be placed on the words.

What happened to you just being a pianist with no control over what you play? You have made an arbitrary decision based on your own judgment about changing something which is presumably in the arrangement the Church uses for it. So what happens if a very good singer comes over from a Methodist church, becomes a Cantor and decides she finds some of the words a bit “nervous” and so decides to change them as well? This is one example where you have just arbitrarily imported a Protestant practice, and yes in the grand scheme of things grace notes may not seem like much but whoever wrote them in probably had a far better understanding of the Catholic musical tradition and why they were there than anyone on here. This is precisely why we need to be careful when people expect the wholesale import of hymns they liked in their previous Church, we mustn’t be adding them at the expense of Catholic practices which actually belong there already.

It is part of the tradition of the Catholic Church and hence part of Catholic culture. And it is part of your culture since you joined the Church. That doesn’t mean you need to love it anymore than we are obligated to adore Eastern Catholic hymns or every hymn ever written. But it does emphasise the universal aspect of the Church, there may be differences but in the Mass those differences should not be constantly forced to the fore which is just what shall happen if you try to throw in a song or two for every ethnic or cultural grouping which might be members of a given Parish. If you can fit in with the Mass, the Sacraments and the other components of the Catholic Church then it should be fairly easy to ‘fit in’ with Gregorian Chant. Even if you don’t personally like it, you should just accept it as part of the Church something which is, and should remain, deeply embedded in the Catholic heritage just as the Church accepts that when you go home you might listen to Heavy Metal or Sandi Patty. Gregorian Chant, more than any other form of music developed with the Church. It used to be said that someone with reasonable familiarity with the TLM if transported back several hundred years would be able to recognise the Mass and follow what is happening. Similarly if we were transported back and heard Church music it should be something we can feel some familiarity with. Gregorian Chant is a very effective audio reminder of that link both to those who first used and introduced Gregorian Chant but also to those who used other Chants previously and indeed to the Jewish tradition which also used, and still uses, Chant.
 
Many of the Protestant denominations came from the Church, it isn’t that surprising that some of the symbolism which Catholics associate with Our Lord have remained in the Protestant traditions, even if in a subliminal/neglected way.

Many of those traditions also come directly from the Bible, Our Lord’s body being prepared for burial, the cloths which Simon Peter found at the empty tomb.

Again there are various times when the “light of Christ” is mentioned, either in the Bible or in the more traditional hymns which the Protestant tradition has retained.

To be honest with you even if we were to look at Pagan rituals or ceremonies and view them through the lens of Catholic symbolism we’d probably find a lot of points. For example Pagan ceremonies may involve waiting on the Sun to rise or coming to the ceremony in darkness, just as we do at the Christmas and Easter Vigil. They may involve incense and fire, they may have songs which can be construed, if looked at in a certain way, as speaking about Christ and His Resurrection. That doesn’t mean that when Pagans convert to the Church we should introduce Pagan rituals so they feel more at home, nor should we introduce hymns which are not entirely Catholic in nature.

It is not about saying this was written by a Protestant or this by a Catholic, its about saying whether this is an appropriate song for the Mass according to what the Church has said on it, and thats means going by the Church Documents and not what lay liturgical experts might have to say on it.

The song may be appropriate for a carol concert or a school concert, but I don’t think it should be used at a Christmas Day Mass or the Christmas Vigil.

The Church does not place a limit on what we listen to in our private time. When you go home you can listen to Protestant hymns till your hearts content, in the car you can play them, even in private prayer at home you could play it in the background. But when it comes to the Mass it should be the Catholic tradition and, to the fullest possible extent, the Catholic musical tradition which is heard, to dilute that with Protestant hymns, especially those which are doctrinally flawed is not appropriate.

And what effect does missing out that repeat have? It decreases the emphasis which was obviously intended to be placed on the words.

What happened to you just being a pianist with no control over what you play? You have made an arbitrary decision based on your own judgment about changing something which is presumably in the arrangement the Church uses for it. So what happens if a very good singer comes over from a Methodist church, becomes a Cantor and decides she finds some of the words a bit “nervous” and so decides to change them as well? This is one example where you have just arbitrarily imported a Protestant practice, and yes in the grand scheme of things grace notes may not seem like much but whoever wrote them in probably had a far better understanding of the Catholic musical tradition and why they were there than anyone on here. This is precisely why we need to be careful when people expect the wholesale import of hymns they liked in their previous Church, we mustn’t be adding them at the expense of Catholic practices which actually belong there already.

It is part of the tradition of the Catholic Church and hence part of Catholic culture. And it is part of your culture since you joined the Church. That doesn’t mean you need to love it anymore than we are obligated to adore Eastern Catholic hymns or every hymn ever written. But it does emphasise the universal aspect of the Church, there may be differences but in the Mass those differences should not be constantly forced to the fore which is just what shall happen if you try to throw in a song or two for every ethnic or cultural grouping which might be members of a given Parish. If you can fit in with the Mass, the Sacraments and the other components of the Catholic Church then it should be fairly easy to ‘fit in’ with Gregorian Chant. Even if you don’t personally like it, you should just accept it as part of the Church something which is, and should remain, deeply embedded in the Catholic heritage just as the Church accepts that when you go home you might listen to Heavy Metal or Sandi Patty. Gregorian Chant, more than any other form of music developed with the Church. It used to be said that someone with reasonable familiarity with the TLM if transported back several hundred years would be able to recognise the Mass and follow what is happening. Similarly if we were transported back and heard Church music it should be something we can feel some familiarity with. Gregorian Chant is a very effective audio reminder of that link both to those who first used and introduced Gregorian Chant but also to those who used other Chants previously and indeed to the Jewish tradition which also used, and still uses, Chant.
Actually, it is not me imposing my own “Protestant” interpretation on the hymn. The repeat of the phrase is NOT written in the hymnal. I have played out of several Catholic hymnals, including older Catholic hymnals not published by OCP, and that repeat is NOT–I repeat NOT in the music!

So I don’t play it. I play what’s there. I don’t make it up to suit myself. If the priest asked me to play it, I would obey him. But I have never been corrected for not playing a repeat that isn’t in the music.

It seems to me that somehow, the repeat in “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” has become part of “popular culture,” and I would suggest that the repeat is the “addition” to the Liturgy over the years. I don’t know who started doing it first.

Is the repeat there in the original poem? It is the “Te Deum”, isn’t it? What say the Latin experts?

Is the repeat written in the music in your hymnal? What say the music experts?

And the grace notes (or hiccups) are DEFINITELY not in the music. I’m guessing that they, too, were an addition added somewhere along the way. At one time in hymnody, “Scottish” themes were all the rage, with the little “jumps” in the music. Perhaps it was during this fad that the grace notes got added to the melody that is usually associated with “Holy God We Praise Thy Name.”

At any rate, I am not imposing my own ideas on the music to get rid of those grace notes when I play. I am playing what’s written.

And I am glad to know your opinion on the hymn, but that is not your decision not is it mine. It is up to the parish priest to decide which hymns, songs, instruments, etc. are appropriate, with the approval of the bishop.
 
MIt is part of the tradition of the Catholic Church and hence part of Catholic culture. And it is part of your culture since you joined the Church.
Incorporating culture is a Catholic tradition 2000 years in the making. Most holidays were an incorporation of pagan holidays. Polyphony was an incorporation of popular secular music. Even Mary apeared to the Mayans as a Mayan. Today, if you attend mass in Africa, you will find cultural elements used in worship, as you will in Latin America. None of this should preclude or overshadow the wealth of Catholic culture. But, hey, everything was new at some point.
 
Additionally, since you also seem to be clueless (I’m using your terminology, not mine) as to the Scripture reference,
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GemmaRose:
I seriously doubt that some posters have a clue
Actually, it’s *your *terminology. The second quote was from before I even posted in this thread 🙂
Now, why doesn’t everyone calm down, think charitably, and post an answer to the OP’s question without bashing your fellow Catholic brother or sister.
Let’s see, you have informed people that they don’t have a clue (at LEAST three times, explicitly), typed enormous walls of text that you call posts, and accused just about everyone of lacking humility while bragging about your own “clear conscience”.

Do you actually read over what you write? Or do you find that trying to sift through garbled hypocrisy and passive-aggressiveness becomes a teensy weensy tedious?
 
Incorporating culture is a Catholic tradition 2000 years in the making. Most holidays were an incorporation of pagan holidays. Polyphony was an incorporation of popular secular music. Even Mary apeared to the Mayans as a Mayan. Today, if you attend mass in Africa, you will find cultural elements used in worship, as you will in Latin America. None of this should preclude or overshadow the wealth of Catholic culture. But, hey, everything was new at some point.
Not in the way Cat and others seem to be advocating it. We have never just transported wholesale hymns which portray an image of Christianity which, even if not doctrinally flawed, nonetheless fails to manifest the fullness of Catholic belief.

Polyphony may have been an incorporation, eventually, but that was after it had been refined and judged suitable, it was actually explicitly banned for a time. To simply import contemporary musical styles to the Liturgy without that refinement is to import the worst excesses of contemporary music with none of the moderation which may be used a few decades down the line.

Mary has appeared to many people of many cultures in many different ways.

Where it has been part of the culture for centuries and has since been rendered appropriately for the Mass. It’s not a case of a group of African people or Latin Americans getting together 40 years ago inventing a genre which neglects many of the principal requirements of Sacred Music and then trying to force them into the Mass in homage to the ‘Spirit’ of Vatican II.

Which is precisely what it does in many places, and which should be avoided.
 
Let’s see, you have informed people that they don’t have a clue (at LEAST three times, explicitly), typed enormous walls of text that you call posts, and accused just about everyone of lacking humility while bragging about your own “clear conscience”.

Do you actually read over what you write? Or do you find that trying to sift through garbled hypocrisy and passive-aggressiveness becomes a teensy weensy tedious?
I did wonder if anyone would comment on that. Although for some reason I don’t think you’ll find her particularly receptive to your observations, no matter how accurate they are.

If I might add, she also seems not to have read her quote from Scripture in great depth. “For everyone who raises himself up will be humbled, but anyone who humbles himself will be raised up.” Particularly in light of such gems as “I made **many good points **in my post”.
 
And I am glad to know your opinion on the hymn, but that is not your decision not is it mine. It is up to the parish priest to decide which hymns, songs, instruments, etc. are appropriate, with the approval of the bishop.
It isn’t entirely the Priest’s decision actually, nor is it the Bishop’s. They are meant to work within what the Church has to say on it and the choices made should reflect that rather than some blatant appeal to pop culture.
 
Where it has been part of the culture for centuries and has since been rendered appropriately for the Mass.
But that is the case in America. Protestant hymnology is centuries old and is very much a part of my culture and many others around us. As much of argument can be made for this being part of our culture as anything else mentioned, since it dates from the 17th century and in America since its founding.
It isn’t entirely the Priest’s decision actually, nor is it the Bishop’s. They are meant to work within what the Church has to say on it,QUOTE] What the Church has said does not eliminate the way most of us use these hymns. There for, as long as it is done within the guidelines of the Church, such decisions are totally left up to the prudence of the local authorities.

Have you noticed there is not official Roman Catholic hymnal? There will probably never be. The Roman Catholic Church leaves such decisions to be made locally. I understand why some of you might not like these in your parish. Heck, many of these hymns might be bad for your parish. But if Rome has not forbidden them, the people present like them, those in charge deem them appropriate, then it really is no one’s business from other parts of the country (or world) to complain or meddle.
 
But that is the case in America. Protestant hymnology is centuries old and is very much a part of my culture and many others around us. As much of argument can be made for this being part of our culture as anything else mentioned, since it dates from the 17th century and in America since its founding.

It isn’t entirely the Priest’s decision actually, nor is it the Bishop’s. They are meant to work within what the Church has to say on it,QUOTE] What the Church has said does not eliminate the way most of us use these hymns. There for, as long as it is done within the guidelines of the Church, such decisions are totally left up to the prudence of the local authorities.

Have you noticed there is not official Roman Catholic hymnal? There will probably never be. The Roman Catholic Church leaves such decisions to be made locally. I understand why some of you might not like these in your parish. Heck, many of these hymns might be bad for your parish. But if Rome has not forbidden them, the people present like them, those in charge deem them appropriate, then it really is no one’s business from other parts of the country (or world) to complain or meddle.
No, because the style of those hymns has changed far more than you are trying to make people believe. The style of many Protestant hymns today has only came into being in the last 40 years or so. Using your current argument we could also say that witch huntings are part of American culture, but for some reason I don’t see many people making that argument.

If ‘the way you use those hymns’ consists of listening and using them in settings other than the Mass then that’s correct. Failing that it is the standards set by the Church which prevail and those are far too often ignored.

How observant of you, the very fact that the Catholic Church is spread across just about every country in the world and worships in dozens of languages makes a global hymnal, outwith certain standard Latin hymns, completely unrealistic. And you are actually wrong, it is not ‘made locally’, the Universal Church has set the criteria. If we look to what Pope John Paul II said:

"12. With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: “The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”[33]. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy[34]. In this perspective, in my Letter to Artists I wrote: “How many sacred works have been composed through the centuries by people deeply imbued with the sense of mystery!”.

Inspiration. Now Gregorian Chant was for the most part inspired by the words of the Mass, the Catholic faith and Catholic teachings. It is incredibly doubtful that Protestant hymns can approach that because they are from a different faith and have been taught different things, by no means impossible, but highly doubtful particularly with their divergence from the Catholic faith. And how can they be “steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae” when much of what they were thinking when writing the hymns was completely at odds with it?

Just what is it you expect Rome to do? Must they ban every hymn that’s inappropriate by name and arrangement before people will follow the guidelines they set? Or do you just expect them to ban whole genres, which will then be circumvented by changing their name or assigning them to another category? It may surprise you to hear this but I don’t think the criteria for Sacred Music includes ‘the people must like it’, if we allow this kind of cafeteria selection of hymns then what is to stop people extending it to Doctrine as well, as many in the developed world already do? It is the business of the whole Church to see that appropriate Worship is offered in the Mass and that the rules of the Church are followed as far as possible, where there is a failure to do that the whole Church and community of believers is weakened by it.
 
Just what is it you expect Rome to do? Must they ban every hymn that’s inappropriate by name and arrangement before people will follow the guidelines they set?
I expect them to continue with their principle of locality, since most of us have enough common sense to know what works and what doesn’t.

I will continue to select music that is well liked. I have found those music directors that do not end up with performances over participation. Why do Catholics not sing? Because music directors to do choose well those things which can and will be sung.
It is the business of the whole Church to see that appropriate Worship is offered in the Mass and that the rules of the Church are followed as far as possible,…
I understand, but as long as the rules are being followed, then the idea that worship is diminished is in the opinion of the beholder, or the meddler. Again, no rule exists that prohibits hymns based soley on being used in Protestant services. One can argue from silence all day long, but it is a poor arguement. If the Church has not spoken on a subject, no one here has the authority to speak for the Church.
 
I’ve seen people use this term in their posts and I’m not sure what they are talking about.

Are we talking about lyrics or music written by Protestants, or about hymns that extol Protestant doctrines, or something else?

Please list some of the Protestant hymns that you hear used in the Mass that you attend and explain why you consider them “Protestant.”

Thank you.
There are many hymn written by Protestants that are used at mass and there is nothing wrong with using them as long as they meet the following criteria:
  1. They must confirm the mystery that is happening at the mass. For example, if it’s used at communion it must worship Christ’s presence among his people or his sacrifice on the crosss or the resurrection, get my drift?
  2. They must move God’s people to deeper prayer. The more clearly that they extol the faith of the Church and the scriptures the more helpful they are.
  3. Obviously, they cannot be in conflict with Church teaching.
A good example is “A Mighty Fortress” written by Martin Luther. Many of the Protestant hymns are taken from scripture. Scripture tells no lies. Whether the Protestants interpret a particular passage of scripture incorrectly or not, does not change the passage of scripture that is being sung.

One must also factor in the congregation. Some congregations are less comfortable with Protestant hymns simply because they were written by Protestants. My personal feeling is that the liturgy is not the time to start a debate over the merits of a hymn. It’s better to introduce them in other prayer services where people get disensitized.

It is definitely wrong to reject a hymn because it was written by a Protestant, Jew, or Orthodox if the hymn communicates a truth that the Church teaches. Let us remember, Protestants have kept some of the truths taught by the Church and scriptures, even though they may not realize that these are Catholic truths.

I was thinking of how we sing “Mine Eyes of the Seen the Glory” especially on holidays such as the Fourth of July or other patriotic hymns. They were not written by Catholics nor were they written for liturgy.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I guess we all like what we grew up with…kind of like no one can cook as good as my mom does

Having said this, I prefer chant to hymns, no matter how pretty they might sound

There is just something that reminds me of angels when I hear chant. I hope it makes a come back
 
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