Protestant Idolatry

[EnterCanaan]

Catholics are always getting accused of idolatry with our devotions to the Blessed Virgin and the saints. However I was reading a book that belongs to my Protestant brother, and it elevated the Bible to the status of God. I understand that the Bible is God’s written Word, but the Bible does not “know what we need in our hearts” (It actually said that–I am NOT making this up!) That is idolatry, my friends! That author, at least, replaced God with a book! Very sad…

This is mis-information. NO where does the bible ever say it “does not know what we need in our hearts,” if it does say this in a particulare verse, please provide the proof.

However it does not say that so this is mis-information.

On to idolatry, Idolatry is anything you put your faith into that is not God. Idolatry is, even to the extent of picture’s of the Lord Himself, anything without breath, something man made, even to represent heavenly things, is still without the breath of life.

The bible is the word of God, It is the LIVING word of God. Putting your trust in the bible is putting your trust into the word of God. The word of God is a living breathing eternal thing, though they may seem as words, though very important words, it goes one step further, the words of God are the words of LIFE.

The bible to protestants, is their ulitmate authority as they completely trust in the words of The Lord. When we pray, we pray **to the **God of the bible, When we worship, we worship **the **God of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above[including God, Jesus, the Cross, the Ark, Angels, Satan, or even Satan being stomped on by God; it is a man made creation with no breath of life, it is inanimate and will not prove to God anything or make you more holy or get you saved, or put you in the front of the class], or that is in the earth beneath[earth is sin cursed, man is born into sin, anything a man makes is of man and not of God and is not heavenly, any picture, drawing, statue, painting, or resemblence to anything including the crucifixtion or a portrait of the wise men during nativity, everything, anything that is created to simulate or show or explain in such a manner, or to behold in beauty and love and cherish, is of man and has no life, it is not alive, it is not even a real representation of heavenly things as there never is or ever was a picture of anything depicting anything anywhere in the bible. This is because God know the heart of man, and how eventually man would put their faith in these things, believing that because they have them, then that must mean they are holy and saved, which is not the case is it], or that is in the waters beneath the earth[ie the same waters God created out of nothing to form the earth]

Genesis 1 (King James Version)
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

There is no exception, it is wrong, their is no rationalizing this, their is nothing to make it right, no matter how beautiful and or holy. The Lord gave us His word, which is written in the bible, and the bible is the living word of God. It is LIVING, it is the sword of God and it brings life unto life for those who trust, and death unto death for those who disobey.

God Bless

 

[crazzeto]

You seem to not know what idolotry is

“Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God.”

or, from the dictionary

i⋅dol⋅a⋅try  /aɪˈdɒlətri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-dol-uh-tree] Show IPA
Use Idolatry in a Sentence
See web results for Idolatry
See images of Idolatry
–noun, plural -tries. 1. the religious worship of idols.
2. excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc.

---

Origin:
1200–50; ME idolatrie < ML īdōlatrīa, by haplology from LL īdōlolatrīa Gk (NT) eidōlolatreía. See idol -latry

Synonyms:
2. obsession, madness, mania.

Which sounds a lot like what god it talking about (from Douay Rheims)
drbo.org/chapter/05005.htm

8 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me, 10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The thing is, we’re not worshiping the object, the object is mearly something which reminds us of, for instance christ being crusified (which christ is not being crusified in heaven btw). What I find very interesting about your post is:

Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above[including God, Jesus, **the Cross

,

#1, you suggest the cross is in heaven? Or under the earth? or at sea? When constantines mother found it, among many other relics? Secondly, your church has no cross? I’d be very supprised if it didn’t, since every church I’ve seen does have one. If it does, then I guess you’re guilty of “idolitry”, per your own posting.

 

[CWBetts]

This is mis-information. NO where does the bible ever say it “does not know what we need in our hearts,” if it does say this in a particulare verse, please provide the proof.

However it does not say that so this is mis-information.

On to idolatry, Idolatry is anything you put your faith into that is not God. Idolatry is, even to the extent of picture’s of the Lord Himself, anything without breath, something man made, even to represent heavenly things, is still without the breath of life.

The bible is the word of God, It is the LIVING word of God. Putting your trust in the bible is putting your trust into the word of God. The word of God is a living breathing eternal thing, though they may seem as words, though very important words, it goes one step further, the words of God are the words of LIFE.

The bible to protestants, is their ulitmate authority as they completely trust in the words of The Lord. When we pray, we pray **to the **God of the bible, When we worship, we worship **the **God of the Bible.

Deuteronomy 5:8
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above[including God, Jesus, the Cross, the Ark, Angels, Satan, or even Satan being stomped on by God; it is a man made creation with no breath of life, it is inanimate and will not prove to God anything or make you more holy or get you saved, or put you in the front of the class], or that is in the earth beneath[earth is sin cursed, man is born into sin, anything a man makes is of man and not of God and is not heavenly, any picture, drawing, statue, painting, or resemblence to anything including the crucifixtion or a portrait of the wise men during nativity, everything, anything that is created to simulate or show or explain in such a manner, or to behold in beauty and love and cherish, is of man and has no life, it is not alive, it is not even a real representation of heavenly things as there never is or ever was a picture of anything depicting anything anywhere in the bible. This is because God know the heart of man, and how eventually man would put their faith in these things, believing that because they have them, then that must mean they are holy and saved, which is not the case is it], or that is in the waters beneath the earth[ie the same waters God created out of nothing to form the earth]

Genesis 1 (King James Version)
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

There is no exception, it is wrong, their is no rationalizing this, their is nothing to make it right, no matter how beautiful and or holy. The Lord gave us His word, which is written in the bible, and the bible is the living word of God. It is LIVING, it is the sword of God and it brings life unto life for those who trust, and death unto death for those who disobey.

God Bless

Stop trying to defend the heresy of Sola Scriptura. The topic of the thread is that to treat the Bible as God is idolatry.

 

[EnterCanaan]

You seem to not know what idolotry is

“Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God.”

or, from the dictionary

Which sounds a lot like what god it talking about (from Douay Rheims)
drbo.org/chapter/05005.htm

The thing is, we’re not worshiping the object, the object is mearly something which reminds us of, for instance christ being crusified (which christ is not being crusified in heaven btw). What I find very interesting about your post is:

#1, you suggest the cross is in heaven? Or under the earth? or at sea? When constantines mother found it, among many other relics? Secondly, your church has no cross? I’d be very supprised if it didn’t, since every church I’ve seen does have one. If it does, then I guess you’re guilty of “idolitry”, per your own posting.

The cross in reference to the crucifixion, is depicting our Lord being crucified. Regardless, the cross is a biblical symbol, I assume those who wear crosses are not referering to the bloody Roman death sentence which was thier practice in ancient days, but rather a symbol of God to represent the crucifix, lets not tarry when we know what we mean. This referes to the star of David or any other biblical symbol which is meaninless and has no value and will not prove anything nor does it make you holy or get you saved. You must have Christ in your heart and their you will find Him. There is no reason for a reminder if you walk a path near Him.

And the dictionary is not the bible, so it has no bearing, the explanation i gave is adequite and indeed is what it means, putting your faith into something with absolutely no life in it. It will not get you saved, and instead is contrary to the teaching of the bible.

mankind will rationalize their own idea of a salvation plan though, wont he. Apparently this rule is to cumbersome to be understood by the man who does not trust in the bible. In which case it is that man who is in the wrong, not the bible which teaches the truth of God, rather than the wisdom of man.

 

[EnterCanaan]

Stop trying to defend the heresy of Sola Scriptura. The topic of the thread is that to treat the Bible as God is idolatry.

I explained how those who trust in the bible alone, trust in the God OF THE bible. That is who we commune with, and pray to and worship. The God of the bible. That is not idolotry, that is putting your trust in the word of God as your ultimate authority.

God Bless

 

[CWBetts]

I explained how those who trust in the bible alone, trust in the God OF THE bible. That is who we commune with, and pray to and worship. The God of the bible. That is not idolotry, that is putting your trust in the word of God as your ultimate authority.

God Bless

You don’t use the Word of God as your ultimate authority. You trust in the Scriptures as your ultimate authority.

 

[crazzeto]

The cross in reference to the crucifixion, is depicting our Lord being crucified.

You’re right, it is just that. Which would call to mind the passion of our Lord in heaven, putting you in a proper state of mind for worship, of God not the crusifix.

Regardless, the cross is a biblical symbol, I assume those who wear crosses are not referering to the bloody Roman death sentence which was thier practice in ancient days, but rather a symbol of God to represent the crucifix, lets not tarry when we know what we mean. This referes to the star of David or any other biblical symbol which is meaninless and has no value and will not prove anything nor does it make you holy or get you saved. You must have Christ in your heart and their you will find Him. There is no reason for a reminder if you walk a path near Him.

I don’t disagfee that the Cross is a christian symbol, you are the one trying to turn The Cross in to idolotry, into something which should never be engraven.

And the dictionary is not the bible,

No kidding

so it has no bearing, the explanation i gave is adequite and indeed is what it means,

It defines “Idolotry”, which is what God is talking about about in the commandment if you go back and read it. Read which ever version you want, Douay Rheims (the translatino I provide is based on KJV), or your KJV which is based on the Douay Rheims of the 1500’s (wow, circular there huh?). Whatever version you choose, God is talking about “Idolotry”, which was defined in the dictionary, based greatly on this very commandment!

putting your faith into something with absolutely no life in it. It will not get you saved, and instead is contrary to the teaching of the bible.

Yep, we agree you don’t place your faith in the object. You place your faith in God, the object reminds you of something specific to God, or to what God did for us (Christ crusified, which washes away our sins). When you are reminded, it puts you in the proper frame of mind, for worshiping God, not the object.

mankind will rationalize their own idea of a salvation plan though, wont he. Apparently this rule is to cumbersome to be understood by the man who does not trust in the bible. In which case it is that man who is in the wrong, not the bible which teaches the truth of God, rather than the wisdom of man.

We Catholics have no problem with the bible, we did write, assemble and cannonize it after all, with the holy spirit as the guide of our Fathers. This last remark of yours truely makes me think you desperatly need to read a book written by a Protistant, about the bible.

amazon.com/gp/product/0895557967/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

 

[RedBert]

…FACT, that many (not all) Protestants imbue the Scriptures with anthropomorphic qualities and treat the Bible as a 4th part of the Trinity.

I could not disagree with that statement more. Even if it was just hypebole.

Few (close to zero by percent) Bible loving Protestants feel that way, And I have NEVER met one.

Please, show me any reference anywhere to support that outrageous statement or your OP

 

[CWBetts]

I could not disagree with that statement more. Even if it was just hypebole.

Few (close to zero by percent) Bible loving Protestants feel that way, And I have NEVER met one.

Please, show me any reference anywhere to support that outrageous statement or your OP

I will give a full citation next weekend–that’s when I am going home again. By this time next week, you will see that at least some protestants worship the Bible as God Himself.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I will give a full citation next weekend–that’s when I am going home again. By this time next week, you will see that at least some protestants worship the Bible as God Himself.

Curious. Why would what a group does that is not my group effect me anymore than you? An analogy. If I live in China (my church). Why would it matter what Denmark (another church) or Zaire (the Catholic Church) does? Do I control their actions? It is not my fault if Zaire or Denmark do not agree with China.
I am really curious why the word Protestant is supposed to have any meaning to me if it is not my group any more than it would matter to you?

 

[CWBetts]

Curious. Why would what a group does that is not my group effect me anymore than you? An analogy. If I live in China (my church). Why would it matter what Denmark (another church) or Zaire (the Catholic Church) does? Do I control their actions? It is not my fault if Zaire or Denmark do not agree with China.
I am really curious why the word Protestant is supposed to have any meaning to me if it is not my group any more than it would matter to you?

What bothers me is the hypocrisy. Catholic face the same kind of accusations on a regular basis. I know that my assumptions of what appears to be worship of the Bible are largely unfounded, although there are a few who do cross that line. Likewise Catholics do not worship Mary or any of the saints, though there may be a some who have crossed the line, although I have never seen it. The whole point of this thread was to show Protestants who accuse Catholics of Mary worship what it is like to be accused of something that you know is not true, and no matter what explanation or evidence is given, the accusers stubbornly continue in their charges. As a former Fundamentalist, I know the Bible is not worshiped (my issues with Fundamentalism lie in other areas). Quite to the contrary, I respect the devotion most Fundamentalists have to the written word of God, and if more Catholics would emulate that fervor for knowing the Scriptures, the world would be changed. Perhaps now you have a better understanding of the frustration Catholics feel when we are accused of idolatry, when it is not true. All I am asking is that when Catholics explain devotions to Mary and the saints, you pay attention to us, instead of ignoring us and repeating the same accusations over and over again.

 

[crazzeto]

Curious. Why would what a group does that is not my group effect me anymore than you? An analogy. If I live in China (my church). Why would it matter what Denmark (another church) or Zaire (the Catholic Church) does? Do I control their actions? It is not my fault if Zaire or Denmark do not agree with China.
I am really curious why the word Protestant is supposed to have any meaning to me if it is not my group any more than it would matter to you?

well, you are here responding… i assumed that was because protistants shared a core belief. i guess this is one of those “different world” things. i was born in lima peru, moved to detroit mi when i was 2 years old. i’m used to being able to visit family in peru and not ever missing mass even once (critical for is catholics). for us, there is very much just on church. this is why we don’t have so called mega churches, no need. this attitude extends beyond our denomination, if any christians need help anywhere, we care. i can’t imagin feeling as disconnected from other christians in the world as your post describes

 

[Rightlydivide]

What bothers me is the hypocrisy. Catholic face the same kind of accusations on a regular basis. I know that my assumptions of what appears to be worship of the Bible are largely unfounded, although there are a few who do cross that line. Likewise Catholics do not worship Mary or any of the saints, though there may be a some who have crossed the line, although I have never seen it. The whole point of this thread was to show Protestants who accuse Catholics of Mary worship what it is like to be accused of something that you know is not true, and no matter what explanation or evidence is given, the accusers stubbornly continue in their charges. As a former Fundamentalist, I know the Bible is not worshiped (my issues with Fundamentalism lie in other areas). Quite to the contrary, I respect the devotion most Fundamentalists have to the written word of God, and if more Catholics would emulate that fervor for knowing the Scriptures, the world would be changed. Perhaps now you have a better understanding of the frustration Catholics feel when we are accused of idolatry, when it is not true. All I am asking is that when Catholics explain devotions to Mary and the saints, you pay attention to us, instead of ignoring us and repeating the same accusations over and over again.

Perhaps you will have achieved your goal then. I really do not know how many Catholic bashing “protestants” read Sacred Scripture forums.
CW…sometime…check out CAF. You find more “Protestant” directed threads than Catholic directed threads with accusatory titles. Maybe that doesn’t matter…maybe it does…

 

[Rightlydivide]

well, you are here responding… i assumed that was because protistants shared a core belief. i guess this is one of those “different world” things. i was born in lima peru, moved to detroit mi when i was 2 years old. i’m used to being able to visit family in peru and not ever missing mass even once (critical for is catholics). for us, there is very much just on church. this is why we don’t have so called mega churches, no need. this attitude extends beyond our denomination, if any christians need help anywhere, we care. i can’t imagin feeling as disconnected from other christians in the world as your post describes

What is the defintion of a mega church? 7 out of the 10 larges churches in this city are Catholic! That was in the paper awhile back. The largest is nondenominational though.

To your point about being disconnected. When you start a church, do you go and talk to all the other churches? We didn’t. Hundreds of them. So few are as conservative as we are. I don’t know what I would have said or why they would have cared. Would the priests have cared more than the evangelicals? I don’t know. I cannot solve your divisions. When I was an atheist I used the divisions argument all the time to pile on Christianity for being a failure. I guess I just still cannot make sense of it. Usually the answer around here is just to agree with you guys. Well that logic works for any group…not just Catholics. If you do not think that Catholics have the teachings of the Bible but have added a lot of extra stuff…which of course any moron knows you do not agree with obviously…but if someone REALLY does think that…they are not going to join a group they disagree with just to be one.

 

[crazzeto]

What is the defintion of a mega church? 7 out of the 10 larges churches in this city are Catholic! That was in the paper awhile back. The largest is nondenominational though.

Mega church, as in gigantic church structure, where typically services are also broadcast on local tv… Because the way things work in your faith group (as displayed below) each of your congregations are an island unto their own. We catholics don’t have that problem, though yes some cathedrals are big just because that’s where the bishop is there for the church should (typically) be more impressive. in Catholisim we can go to any Catholic church anywhere and it’s all the same service, thanks to the letergical calander. We’re all literally on the same page. That’s why I can go to service in Lima peru with out any problems, I’m getting the same thing there that I would be here in Raleigh NC.

To your point about being disconnected. When you start a church, do you go and talk to all the other churches? We didn’t. Hundreds of them. So few are as conservative as we are. I don’t know what I would have said or why they would have cared. Would the priests have cared more than the evangelicals? I don’t know. I cannot solve your divisions. When I was an atheist I used the divisions argument all the time to pile on Christianity for being a failure. I guess I just still cannot make sense of it. Usually the answer around here is just to agree with you guys. Well that logic works for any group…not just Catholics. If you do not think that Catholics have the teachings of the Bible but have added a lot of extra stuff…which of course any moron knows you do not agree with obviously…but if someone REALLY does think that…they are not going to join a group they disagree with just to be one.

This is exactly what I"m talking about, your disconnect with the rest of everyone else. Well at my church we do things xyz and I really don’t care what anyone else does. At least that is what I’m getting out of what your typing. Why wouldn’t you care? We’re all Christians! Evangelicals might believe a lot of things I disaprove of (thus I’m into apologetics) but at the end of the day they are still bringing people to Christ and I can’t complain about that. So I stick up for them when they’re under attack from athiests (usually there are some qualifications in there, but stick up for them none-the-less) and it does pain me when I hear about Churches in trouble for any reason. You don’t feel the same way? Even if you don’t totally share the same dogma? we might disagre, we might debate on these forums, I’m certainly here trying to get everyone to see what I know as the truth, but at the end of the day as far as I’m concerned you are my protistant brother. There for I am your keeper, there for when push comes to shove I will care for you guys, and defend you guys when appropriate.

 

[RedBert]

…** I know that my assumptions of what appears to be worship of the Bible are largely unfounded**, although there are a few who do cross that line. Likewise Catholics do not worship Mary or any of the saints, though there may be a some who have crossed the line, although I have never seen it. The whole point of this thread was to show Protestants who accuse Catholics of Mary worship what it is like to be accused of something that you know is not true, and no matter what explanation or evidence is given, the accusers stubbornly continue in their charges. As a former Fundamentalist, I know the Bible is not worshiped (my issues with Fundamentalism lie in other areas). ** Quite to the contrary, I respect the devotion most Fundamentalists have to the written word of God, and if more Catholics would emulate that fervor for knowing the Scriptures, the world would be changed. ** …

emphasis added

Thank you

 

[Crumpy]

That would help the level of discourse. Perhaps that is the case and sometimes the context has been established in a previous section. Depending on the literary style of the author, it is really hard to tell without context. On the otherhand, I think idolatry when it concerns the written words of God would be hard to establish.
However, perhaps you have found such an example and it can be a warning to overzealous behavior.

I was reading down the thread and had to comment on post 18. not just to pick on anybody, but to point out what is going on here – to run with an argument based on that which is not true. We can keep shadow boxing with that or just let the argument bounce off us Catholics.

We’re not going to change that such-and-such was written in a book, which has been written in books over and over since the start of the reformation.

Infighting among Christians is just the trap that Satan wants to snare us in. If there is a difference of opinion here, let the Holy Spirit sort it out. Why don’t we move on, and deal with the fact (reported last week) that 1 in 4 people of the world is Muslim?

We need to pray for them and work for their conversion.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I was reading down the thread and had to comment on post 18. not just to pick on anybody, but to point out what is going on here – to run with an argument based on that which is not true. We can keep shadow boxing with that or just let the argument bounce off us Catholics.

We’re not going to change that such-and-such was written in a book, which has been written in books over and over since the start of the reformation.

Infighting among Christians is just the trap that Satan wants to snare us in. If there is a difference of opinion here, let the Holy Spirit sort it out. Why don’t we move on, and deal with the fact (reported last week) that 1 in 4 people of the world is Muslim?

We need to pray for them and work for their conversion.

I have had the same conviction lately about the nonreligious or secular influences. I am worried that because this IS my background that I am not strong enough to do that.

 

[benidict]

St. Ignatius of Antioch chapter 7 of his letter to the Smyrnans he tells us how to Identify heretics: Don’t accept the real presence in the Eucharist, always fighting (hence 30,000 denominations). Chapter 8 we are to follow the Bishops as Jesus follows the Father (even if you take this to mean a pastor, and not a true Bishop, this means not to split off and start a new denomination because you get mad, again, a hallmark of Fundamentalism). Fundamentalism is a perversion of the Gospel. Sola Scriptura: Heresy. Sola Fide: Heresy. Once saved, always saved: Heresy. I protest against Fundamentalism because it is built upon a pile of lies. It is the house built upon sand. It will fall. Why? No foundation.

now now my dear fellow catholic. pretty new catholic myself, and a former protestant. just as hard core as rightly divide. every thing you said was true. but you may get a little further with sugar than with vinigar. yes i also am flabbergasted and angry at times for the years i spent as a protestant and had no clue what the truth actually was. its an act of grace that some of us are Catholic anyway. i used to be hardcore anti catholic. love you fire, agree with everything you said. but our fundamentalist friend may not take it the way you want it being taken. after all plenty of fundamentalist act that way, but this one actually seems to want good dialouge. thats rare. Love in Christ.

 

[benidict]

Don’t cherry pick. Ignatius demands obedience to the Bishops. Do you know another thing that can’t be found in the Bible: the Canon. That came form the Catholic Church. Sunday Worship. That’s tradition too. And the only way that you can say that Peter had no primacy among the Apostles is to ignore the Scriptures. He is mentioned more than all the others put together. When lists are given, he is first, and Judas is last. Coincidence? I don’t think so. If you would read and study the Fathers, and not just take the parts that match your invented theology, you would see that the Fathers were Catholic in doctrine and practice.

also dont forget the trinity. not found in the bible, although alluded to, this also is a product of the One True Chuch.