Protestant interpretations...

[JohnnyBeth]

Its nice to see that I am back with your graces…

To help me understand why you are right and other Protestants and Catholics are wrong, I need evidence. For starters, how about we start with Early Church Fathers. Please provide me evidence to support your doctrine. It should be easy enough to find supporting evidence from ECF’s if in fact that’s what they believed. If you can not provide evidence, please, just say so… its OK. I’ll then need to weight additional considerations…

Thanks!

• Michael

Michael, try Scripture; it really does tell the truth. Are speaking of Once Sealed Always Sealed? I provided Sciptural evidence. Is there a higher authority than Scripture that I an unaware of?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Lets start here. Not he isn’t. ITs quite clear. Man may have wrote the bible as far as writing down the words. But man was led by the Holy Spirit. LEts get that straight. God is not limited to understanding by human nature. That is why we have to be led by the Holy Spirit. Human Nature will never understand. That is a perfect example why you are a failure in understanding scriputre on your own. (but don’t feel bad ME TOO!)

Secondly Gods will never ever ever trump mans will. If he did, there would never be sin. If he did God could never say he gives man FREE WILL. That would make God a liar. Which we both know he is NOT. SO please do not say God takes away free will. The devil has proved that point. ANd also you conradicted yourself in saying that cannot accept. IF they Cannot accept that means free will! To have free will means you cannot and will not accept!

To not have free will means you WILL ACCEPT!

Show me a verse where God said He gave man free-will. The only free-will you have is to sin as God see it. You are very limited by your inherant nature. God is by nature the epitomy of free-will, that is why the Bible declares that if the Son sets you free you are truly free. Free from what? The old nature that is a slave to sin and the devil. God can and does trump man’s will; otherwise their would not be any elect and Jesus would not need to die on the cross.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

JB asked, “Can you show the traditions Paul spoke of that are not contained in the Biblical record?” So I showed him a tradition of St. Paul that was not mentioned in the Bible. So, since I gave exactly what JB asked for, I assume that you are laughing at and mocking a Saint in Heaven, a man who died a glorious martyr’s death for the name of Jesus Christ - St. Victorinus. Have you no fear of the Lord?

More mockery. Are you completely ignorant of the fact that God uses numbers symbolically? Are you completely unaware of Biblical numerology? And yet you speak - and mock? St. Victorinus pointed out the FACT that St. Paul wrote letters to 7 different churches. He did so while noting that St. John did the same thing in Revelation. And surely you noticed that this was by the command of our Lord? Do you not understand that by writing to 7 churches it symbolized the whole universal Church? You’re calling the work of God “nonsense”? Have you no fear of the Lord?

I already addressed the absurdity of asking for something that’s not in the Bible, and then asking where it is in the Bible. But actually it is in the Bible - but it’s veiled. So I wont bother throwing out another pearl in front of you guys.

There you go again, throwing out misleading quotes that you have no understanding of. Show us a scholar who TODAY says that Victorinus did not write this book, or give it a rest.

St. Victorinus attributed the name “Catholic Church” to St. Paul. He didn’t say that Paul coined the term, just that he “taught” it. There is no evidence that Victorinus didn’t write this book. Indeed, St. Jerome translated it and expressed no doubt that it was the work of Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau. Furthermore, nobody at that time disputed the name “Catholic Church”, so there was no motivation for attributing the term to Paul, unless that was the tradition that was handed down to him, which he passed on to us. Go ahead and believe what you want to believe, but if I were you I would stop mocking God’s work and His people.

The point we are making is this; Paul never said such foolishness. Did you even read what you posted or were you too busy copy and pasting? Get a grip and look at what the person actually wrote.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I am puzzled here also. That is not what he bible says. It say that those who follow Jesus are of the light not the darkness. Only those who are evil follow the darkness.

Do you not know that the darkness is of the devil, things that are hidden. And that the light are of which is God shown to all? Its like the color black. It is black but the opposite is white. If you add any white to black you will get gray.

the devils favorite color! When white appears you are unsure. He has a chance. But the more white you add becomes lighter and lighter and the Light appears!

No kidding and the Bible says men loved the darkness because their deeds are “evil”. The ones that follow Jesus are following the “Light”, but that can’t happen without God working in the heart of the believer. Hear the word, believe the word, receive the Holy Spirit who seals you to the day of redemption.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Agan JB thank-you very very much for again sticking your foot in your mouth so far it will never come out.

Because I believe in some way this is the work of the HS in action. Because it lets me to explain once and for all what the Pope said.

The Pope said that if you are RC and it was revealed to you the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. Anotherward’s is you understand the Church’s teaching 100%. It has been not only been explained to you you see it with your own eyes but you still choose to ignore it your soul is in grave danger.

Let me give you a perfect example. I knew when I got married in the Church it was forever. Now unless there is some kind of abuse, my husband beat me or mentally abused me I am in it for keeps. I can’t say well the neighbor thinks I am hot. and makes more money. OR my husband got fat or hurt. (disabled) or age isn’t kind to him. No it don’t work and vice-versa.

I stood up in front of God and promised to Love this man until death do us part. And no matter what good times and bad if I ask God to help me I can make it work. Because God does not only make us promise to do something his grace helps us follow thru.

Now thats an example what the Pope was talking about. How could YOU again a Perfect example be held to something you cannot even begin to understand?

Now that’s what I call folks a good BINGO!

So are you going to address the proof I have given that in fact the church has changed and in fact Vatt II has spoken out of both sides of its mouth as my relative put it and I have to agree with him on that.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

not sure about traditions attributed to Paul… and i know i’ll probably get shot down in flames for this post on these, (my post is more of education process for me…)
isn’t the christian marriage ceremony (or alteast what is said by the preist) a tradition in a sense? that is not clearly spelled out in the bible

also the list of books in the NT, isn’t this also a form of a tradition that had been decided by the church (under guidance of HS ofcourse), which the bible itself obviously does not spell out

Which Bible, the protestant or the Catholic? Marraige…huumm; did Paul make that a tradition? Don’t think so.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

No kidding and the Bible says men loved the darkness because their deeds are “evil”. The ones that follow Jesus are following the “Light”, but that can’t happen without God working in the heart of the believer. Hear the word, believe the word, receive the Holy Spirit who seals you to the day of redemption.

God’s grace reaches out to all men. Some accept this free gift while some reject it.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. **Otherwise, you also will be cut off. **23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again…32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Offended? Certainly not. You’re a lost sheep Johnny so I’m more saddened than anything.

And wasn’t it you who was attempting to blame poor old Peter for teaching error. I could be wrong but I don’t believe I am.

You didn’t have to tell me that.

However you are attempting to on this board. A preacher spreads the Gospel. That is what you do on here when you tell us for example OSAS is Christian Doctrine. Or maybe I’ll just call you our infallible Christian teacher.

Funny story today. I asked my non denom friend at work if he believes in that silly little doctrine of yours and he replied with a resounding no. The Holy Spirit tells him differently. Amazing ain’t it.
I just find it ridiculously funny how anyone who disagrees with your understanding of Scripture on key points don’t know God but Johnny almighty does. You seriously need to come down off that pedestal. Seriously!

You already know the answer to that question or you haven’t been paying attention. It’s been talked about in this thread and others on this board. Do a search if you really want to understand the Scriptural reasoning behind it.

The same Spirit you said Jesus breathed out to all of the Christians didn’t allow the Apostles to teach error correct? So, either you are likewise saying the Spirit ‘also’ leads you into all truth so that you interpret the Bible perfectly like the Apostles did as you claim, OR (and this is a big OR Johnny so make sure you’re sitting down ok), you ‘CAN’ error and HAVE erred in the past. If the latter, then the Holy Spirit is certainly not as you claim leading everyone, with that same ability the Apostles or the Visible Church was given which of course as you know is the Ground and Pillar of Truth.

Oh and where are all of those others disciples you claim were with the Apostles when Jesus breathed on them since they must have received the same Spirit you claim? They should have been out there preaching without error as well huh. I only know of the 12 though. Weird isn’t it.

And don’t worry, I know you will weasel out of this somehow throwing at us more verses out of context but I’m more curious as to which ones. Mm-hmm.

No worries; it is not me you offend, but He who’s word I have faithfully given and you faithfully reject. No person is without error, but no one has yet shown me a single error that I have made. Plenty of disagreements based on “I don’t agree”, but past that show me an error and I will be more than happy to learn from it.

I guess on a thread titled “protestant interpretations” and Protestants are accused of using the forbidden Bible always, then spreading a gospel, which is part of the Bible is shocking in some way? I would not say spreading the gospel becuase the reality is I have been laying out what the word of God says and most reject what it says; just as the Bible said of religious people; just further evidence of the authenticity of Scripture; it does what it says.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

I once heard a protestant say that premarital sex being wrong wasn’t spelled out in the Bible either.

Besides, protestants can’t even decide whether divorce is ok or not panevino. So I wouldn’t be worried about their replies if any to you.

I once hear a Catholic say the natural birth control was no different than wearing a condom or using the pill because in God’s sight because with either method the intention is the same. They also said it puts an undue burden on women in the Church that Christ would not ask them to bear. They are right; beside the Bble doesn’t prohibit that unless it is murder, like a morning after pill.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

JB,

if you don’t mind, I’m still waiting for evidence/ proof of your claim here:

you seem to be making a few positive claims; at least it seems to me that you are claiming:

– a “good porton” of the Saints never existed

– the Catholic Church is covering this up rather than admit they made a mistake

– at least some Catholic Saints are borrowed from Greek/Roman mythology

if it is not a big deal, I was just looking for your proof on this matter via a P.M.

I’ve addressed this start a new thread and I will join you if you send me the link. This would be completely off the topic at hand.

 

[Des]

I once heard a Catholic say you can get to heaven without Jesus on this forum!

He/She most likely meant without a belief in Jesus.

No person is without error,

But you told me the Apostles couldn’t error? So yes, some are without error in the context of teaching/preaching.

becuase the reality is I have been laying out what the word of God says and most reject what it says

Johnny are you still up on that pedestal. Come down from there already. Man!

I once hear a Catholic say the natural birth control was no different than wearing a condom or using the pill because in God’s sight because with either method the intention is the same.

Yes but the Catholic just has to look to what the Church teaches. SS folks like yourself are kind of in a bit of a dilemma where the same authority you have says something completely different to them. Then all you have is more bickering and verses flying back and forth without a resolution. This is 2000 years now after these ‘Doctrines’ were supposed to have been ‘laid out’ like you said. Yes what a wonderful gift God has given His people. And since you’ve infallibly declared your OSAS position, it’s such a pity you’ll never open yourself up to realizing the heresy of such a belief.

That’s the beauty of having a living teaching Magisterium. Any confusion about Doctrine, just get them to explain a little better.

beside the Bible doesn’t prohibit that unless it is murder, like a morning after pill.

Where does it promote it?

 

[Ginger2]

He/She most likely meant without a belief in Jesus.

That is exactly what he meant. He said and Atheist, who denies God is saved by his good works.

So, you agree? Those who deny God can be saved without ever believing in God or repenting of their sins?

Interesting!

 

[rinnie]

So are you going to address the proof I have given that in fact the church has changed and in fact Vatt II has spoken out of both sides of its mouth as my relative put it and I have to agree with him on that.

I thought I did JB. I showed you what the Pope said. There is a huge difference between what the Pope said and what you accuse him of saying. Kinda like what you do to scripture.

Again let me start again. The Pope first of all was addressing Catholic’s. Right there he wasn’t even talking to you. You are not Catholic. The Pope said that if you are Catholic and know the teachings of the CHurch and refuse to accept and obey the teaching’s of Christ and leave those teaching, your soul is in grace danger. Now how is that taking out of both sides of his mouth.

And the Pope asked all to come back to the CC and be united with the true teaching’s of Christ. Again what was wrong with that.

IT does amaze one though, I must admit, how you can take the word of a relative over the word of a Man who has been given the gift of the HS to speak to others. Tell me what do you feel that your relative has that beats the HS in being able to teach the word of God?

What gift does he have and where did it come from. And how In your eyes could it overpower the HS in teaching?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

I once hear a Catholic say the natural birth control was no different than wearing a condom or using the pill because in God’s sight because with either method the intention is the same. They also said it puts an undue burden on women in the Church that Christ would not ask them to bear. [SIGN]They are right; prohibibeside the Bble doesn’t t that unless it is murder, like a morning after pill.

]

Please Please show me scripture that says you can use birth control of any means as long as its not the morning after pill.

I know you will igmore this like you do any other question. You have not backed up any yet with scripture. ANd if you did the scripture was taken either completely out of context or had nothing at all to do with what you said. But okay show me this scripture.

Next News Flash here JB. Do not repeat second hand gossip. If you want to know the teaching’s of the CC there is a book called the CCC. ITs all in there and easy to umderstand. Or better yet pay a visit to the RCC its there too. There is also bible study. Maybe try that.

Then you can have a little merit in what you say, and can at least know a little of what you are talking about.

Instead of using this relative of yours. Or saying things like my aunts brothers sisters brothers sisters brother told me. Please this is getting a little our of hand would you not agree, If you are gonna call the Church on a teaching please quote it. There are many many sources out there you can use, But believe it or not the CHurch CANNOT DEFEND what your relative says. First of all because your relative does not teach what the church teaches, and your relative has no clue what he or she is talking about. Or ask them for official teaching that should shut them down. I promise you that! It works every time!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is exactly what he meant. He said and Atheist, who denies God is saved by his good works.

So, you agree? Those who deny God can be saved without ever believing in God or repenting of their sins?

Interesting!

The Church’s teaching is clear. We don’t know the mind of God. This passage refers to what MAY happen, not what will happen.

*847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337*

Relevant verses in scripture:

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Luke 12
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[Ginger2]

The Church’s teaching is clear. We don’t know the mind of God. This passage refers to what MAY happen, not what will happen.

You are assuming this man made his comments in accordance with RC teaching. Because he is catholic, you defend and justify his position. Of course you believe I am wrong because I am not RC, and he is right because he is RC.

But this man did not say it is possible the atheist could be saved at the last moment. On the contrary, he specifically stated the atheist would be saved based on his dying while trying to save the life of another - period.

I engaged the assistance of another Catholic to help him see his error and eventually he changed his story. He never admitted being wrong, but he did change his position to fit the teaching of Scriptures and the RC.

Now I could have just let him remain in his error, but chose to witness the truth. When he didn’t listen I brought others to talk with him - just like the Bible says we should do!

Here are some comments from our dialog:
Catholic 1: "Say an unbeliever runs into a burning building to save a small child, and dies in the process.

What value does this perfect act of charity have for this pagan.

“Greater love no man has than to lay down his life for his friend”.

That is why Jesus went to great extent to tell us the story of the Good Samaritan, who, to his listeners was an unbeliever.

Good works work, and they have merit, sometimes everylasting, eternal merit."

**Ginger: **"Are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

**Catholic 1: **"Absolutely.

Any one doing this ‘great good deed’ may never heard of Jesus, but all good comes from God. He is doing it, and it is blessed by Jesus. "Greater love than this no many hath than to lay down his life for his friend.

It is an act of perfect charity. Gee, heaven without Luther."

Catholic 1: …

This perfect act of charity merits for this individual pagan eternal life. This perfect act of charity - how does faith match or compare with charity. It doesn’t, plain and simple."
**
Catholic 2:** (I asked this man to join the thread) “I would have to disagree with you concerning the atheist. Atheist have to be converted to acknowledge God. As we know atheist deny the existence of God. An atheist have to deny his belief and acknowledge God. When he does acknowledge God, the Lord’s grace will move him to act upon his faith. He will be repent, be baptize and be saved.** An atheist who knowingly rejects God and the Gospel Truth, cannot be saved. That is very clear in our Magisterium**.”

Catholic 1 first rejected Catholic 2’s statements, also. But eventually, he came around.
**
Catholic 1:** "
I’ll jump in here with my answer regarding dying as a result of an act of perfect charity, whether of an athetist, or a person in serious sin.

Our man runs into a burning building to save the life of a child, and in do so, he loses his life. Not that unheard of."
**
Ginger:** I have to ask…
I know an atheist who is a fire fighter, and I know that he has saved the life of at least one person while risking his own life.

By your reasoning, he would have gone to heaven if he had died - even tho God knowing his heart knew that he would remain an unrepentant atheist?

Is that what you are saying?
**
Catholic 1: **
Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.
**
Catholic 2: **
Does this man rejects God fully, knowing it, acknowledging it, and consenting it?
**
Catholic 1: **Perfect charity drives out any imperfection.

Over and above this, how unjust God would be not to reward such an individual who had such perfect love for his fellow man?

“What must I do to be saved?”, the man asked Jesus. And Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole mind. And the second command, is to love your neighbor as yourself.”

Catholic 2: There is a problem with that. An Atheist doesn’t believe in God. It would make sense with that commandment if he did. How can he love God if he rejects God?

You take God out of the equation, you can’t be saved. Remember the Catechism states that God created man so that man can:…

Ginger

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You are assuming this man made his comments in accordance with RC teaching. Because he is catholic, you defend and justify his position. Of course you believe I am wrong because I am not RC, and he is right because he is RC.

But this man did not say it is possible the atheist could be saved at the last moment. On the contrary, he specifically stated the atheist would be saved based on his dying while trying to save the life of another - period.

I engaged the assistance of another Catholic to help him see his error and eventually he changed his story. He never admitted being wrong, but he did change his position to fit the teaching of Scriptures and the RC.

Now I could have just let him remain in his error, but chose to witness the truth. When he didn’t listen I brought others to talk with him - just like the Bible says we should do!

Here are some comments from our dialog:
Catholic 1: "Say an unbeliever runs into a burning building to save a small child, and dies in the process.

What value does this perfect act of charity have for this pagan.

“Greater love no man has than to lay down his life for his friend”.

That is why Jesus went to great extent to tell us the story of the Good Samaritan, who, to his listeners was an unbeliever.

Good works work, and they have merit, sometimes everylasting, eternal merit."

**Ginger: **"Are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven

**Catholic 1: **"Absolutely.

Any one doing this ‘great good deed’ may never heard of Jesus, but all good comes from God. He is doing it, and it is blessed by Jesus. "Greater love than this no many hath than to lay down his life for his friend.

It is an act of perfect charity. Gee, heaven without Luther."

Catholic 1: …

This perfect act of charity merits for this individual pagan eternal life. This perfect act of charity - how does faith match or compare with charity. It doesn’t, plain and simple."
**
Catholic 2:** (I asked this man to join the thread) “I would have to disagree with you concerning the atheist. Atheist have to be converted to acknowledge God. As we know atheist deny the existence of God. An atheist have to deny his belief and acknowledge God. When he does acknowledge God, the Lord’s grace will move him to act upon his faith. He will be repent, be baptize and be saved.** An atheist who knowingly rejects God and the Gospel Truth, cannot be saved. That is very clear in our Magisterium**.”

Catholic 1 first rejected Catholic 2’s statements, also. But eventually, he came around.
**
Catholic 1:** "
I’ll jump in here with my answer regarding dying as a result of an act of perfect charity, whether of an athetist, or a person in serious sin.

Our man runs into a burning building to save the life of a child, and in do so, he loses his life. Not that unheard of."
**
Ginger:** I have to ask…
I know an atheist who is a fire fighter, and I know that he has saved the life of at least one person while risking his own life.

By your reasoning, he would have gone to heaven if he had died - even tho God knowing his heart knew that he would remain an unrepentant atheist?

Is that what you are saying?
**
Catholic 1: **
Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.
**
Catholic 2: **
Does this man rejects God fully, knowing it, acknowledging it, and consenting it?
**
Catholic 1: **Perfect charity drives out any imperfection.

Over and above this, how unjust God would be not to reward such an individual who had such perfect love for his fellow man?

“What must I do to be saved?”, the man asked Jesus. And Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole mind. And the second command, is to love your neighbor as yourself.”

Catholic 2: There is a problem with that. An Atheist doesn’t believe in God. It would make sense with that commandment if he did. How can he love God if he rejects God?

You take God out of the equation, you can’t be saved. Remember the Catechism states that God created man so that man can:…

Ginger

I just wanted to present Church teaching.

What do you make of these verses?

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Luke 12
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN]Show me a verse where God said He gave man free-will. The only free-will you have is to sin as God see it.[/SIGN] You are very limited by your inherant nature. God is by nature the epitomy of free-will, that is why the Bible declares that if the Son sets you free you are truly free. Free from what? The old nature that is a slave to sin and the devil. God can and does trump man’s will; otherwise their would not be any elect and Jesus would not need to die on the cross.

You continue to ask me questions and I show you then you jump to another subject. Please read the scripture I give you and please comment on it and show me where the scripture agree’s with you and not Gods Free will. Deut 30:15-18

Josh 24:15
John 15:6-7 3:16
acts 6:10 7:51-55 Man CAN resist the Holy Spirit

Without free will scripture makes no sense.

Luke 6:46 Why do you call me Lord and don’t do what I say?

JN 3:16 Who ever believes in me shall be saved!

Please show me where any of this says God took away our free will!

 

[LionHeart777]

I’ve addressed this start a new thread and I will join you if you send me the link. This would be completely off the topic at hand.

JB,

you made these comments I was just asking for your sources/ evidence. I don’t want to derail the thread that’s why I said that you could send me a P.M. If you have adressed them by actually giving facts please link me to that–that’s what I was after, the
why you believe this so I can check it out for myself. I kind of feel like you sent me on a scavenger hunt when what I really want is for you to tell me plainly why you believe this and what evidence do you have to back it up.

Unless…you want me to start a thread w/ your arguments–

peace.

Thanks,

Nick

 

[Ginger2]

I just wanted to present Church teaching.

And I just wanted to respond to this:

I once heard a protestant say that premarital sex being wrong wasn’t spelled out in the Bible either.

Besides, protestants can’t even decide whether divorce is ok or not panevino. So I wouldn’t be worried about their replies if any to you.

I once heard a Catholic say you can get to heaven without Jesus on this forum!

The snotty remarks made by Catholics toward Protestants show how easy it is to be so focused on “removing the speck” from someone else’s eye, you “can’t see the plank in your own eye”.

Sometimes you are so busy criticizing Protestants as a whole for misunderstanding by some that you can’t see Catholics have the same problem.

The example I gave had Catholics chastising me for error at first. Before this instance I was repeated chastised and accused of deliberately twisting this particular Catholics, words. They were so busy assuming I must be always wrong because I am a protestant, they couldn’t even see one of their own was in error. That is why when he said a person can go to heaven without Jesus, I asked him questions forcing him to clarify his position.

Still the Catholics were so focused on me being Protestant they didn’t even notice the error he was claiming - UNTIL I called another Catholic into the dialog.

Then, slowly the others got on board and together we helped him see his error. He never admitted being wrong - just slowly changed his position.

Ginger