Protestant interpretations...

[ronin67]

Actually Jason it’really a state. But its like when you are dreaming your body is sleeping but at the time you don’t know it. Do you understand what I mean? Its a state of mind at the time.

How do you know it is a state of mind? That sounds more like something from Zen Buddhism. “The plant is green, the flower is red. The plant isn’t green, the flower isn’t red”.

But you know how when we die our soul leaves the body. Well as Catholic’s we know the soul makes the body the body does not make the soul. Like when we die the body is dead only because the soul leaves it.

I agree with this, however that is pretty much what any Christian with any biblical knowledge would say (not just Catholics).

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

.

 

[whm]

Did you not see the quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia???

From the 1924 catechism:

“Let us consider how terrible are the pains of hell or of purgatory which we have deserved;”

Ginger

I am not saying this to undercut whatever point you are trying to make. But you are referencing a catechism written by an individual, originally in German in the 1800s, which the particular translation you are quoting from was published in 1924. The kingdom it was accepted across is Austria. Although I am sure it likely has an imprimatur (sp?), this book is on a different level than the Catechism of the Catholic Church which first came out of the Vatican in 1992.

That being said I still do not understand your point, are you contrasting purification with pain?

Second (on the Encyclopedia) the fact that something was discussed in non scriptural literature does not in itself invalidate the topic. It does provide evidence that somebody was discussing the subject at the time the document was written.

 

[Ginger2]

Hey, Ginger!

I think the vast majority of Christians could neither read nor write in the First 18 centuries or so of Christianity. Also, the majority of the Apostles wrote no books of the Bible. More often than not, when the New Testament refers to the “Scriptures” it’s referring to the Old Testament, since the New Testament wasn’t decided upon till the fourth century. And, Jesus didn’t create a Bible-reading, self-interpreting Church. He created a teaching, preaching Church. That’s what He commanded the Apostles (and their successors) to do (teach and preach). He never commanded anyone to write anything, as far as I know.

You might find the three part video series “Origins of the Bible” quite interesting. You can view it at the following website:

alabamacatholicresources.com/bible.html

God bless!

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but this idea that no one could read before the Europeans came to the Americas is getting old.

The Jews had schools for children even before the time of Jesus. Children were educated.

Matthew was a tax collector. All he needed to know was how to count money. Yet he wrote an articulate rendition of events concerning Jesus - no small task. Mark is believed to have been a companion of Paul, and he could read and write. etc.,…

Tons of people wrote false gospels to confound and deceive Christians very soon after Christ ascended. Was it only Apostles and heretics you think could read?

Ginger

 

[LionHeart777]

Hello all,

been skimming there was a lot to read.

Ginger,

perhaps you need to keep in mind the Catholic teaching of the distinction between the eternal punishment due for the sin from the temporal punishment due for it.

Temporal punishment can be expiated in purgatory (or on earth)–whereas eternal punishment cannot (someone correct me if I’m wrong.)

plain_me,

I’m not sure if you resonded to another posters, I believe Luke65’s, rebuttal of your comments on Augustine–if you did please point me in the right direction if it’s not too much of a hassle. I am a 1978 baby too!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well, first peace be with you. Lets get started my friend in Christ:

1. The need to confess to a priest for forgiveness of sins and calling him father in the process of it all. Yes, I know most Catholics will say you can confess straight to the Heavenly “FATHER”, so why have something you don’t need and say it is required per the scriptures?
2. Assuming purgatory is a real place because of a vague statement in Maccabees (Apocrypha not considered or accepted as Canonical texts by Protestants). Still an interesting read non the less.
3. [SIGN]Forcing priests and nuns to stay unmarried[/SIGN]. I understand what Saint Paul said that he wished everyone could be like him, but marriage was acceptable if one would fall into sin (living example of how some priests were tried and convicted for sexual misconduct). Maybe if they were allowed to have a partner this could have been avoided.
4. “Do this in remembrance of Me”. Not eat this bread and drink this wine that will literally turn into my flesh and body every time you partake of it.
5. The stressing of penance (continued human punishment for a sin/here we are purging again) as compared to forgiveness given to the one who repents to God directly through the acceptance of Christ as their savior (Grace has saved the believer who repents truthfully of his sins/why the need for added human punishment?).

Yes, all of these points have been beaten to death by Protestants and they will continue to be stressed until the scriptures are taught by Catholics the way they read as inspired by our Father.

However, once again I will say that we as Protestants should be eternally grateful to the Catholic Church for spreading the message of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. However, Catholics should be internally grateful to Martin Luther for standing up to the corrupt practices of the Catholic church back then and pointing out how Catholic Doctrine does not out weigh the truth of Scripture alone. Even Pope John Paul II stressed the importance of Martin Luther’s contribution to the truth through scripture.

Take Care fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Ed

Where do I begin. Lets start here. If a Priest is called from God to the Rite of RC that is a order of the Catholic Faith that the Priests choose to follow only GOd and a discipline they accept to not marry.

They are called to this order by God and answer this call. Then they receive a sacrament called Holy Orders. Now could you please show me how you could possibly say the God or the Church has forced anything on anyone. Are you saying that Christ takes away free will by that calling? Because you sure lost me there.

Or are you saying that the RCC forces a PRiest to accept that calling and they take away your free will? Because you make no sense to me.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

To use your own words, “You should not accuse [others] of something and then not provide proof.”

Where’s your proof the Apostles believed this. Show me where one commented on it.

Your statement is false. The canons of both Old and New Testaments were settled before the end of the 1st century.

Don’t need to get back to it. [SIGN][SIGN]It’s already been proven [/SIGN][/SIGN]thru the [SIGN]words of the ever-changing Catechism and statements from Catholics.[/SIGN]Ginger

You continue to say this. BUt you avoid the proof. Show me. Show me one teaching that the CHurch has taught as dogma and then turned around and changed it. You must show me the official document that has been changed.

Again show me proof!

 

[rinnie]

Did you not see the quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia???

From the 1924 catechism:

“Let us consider how terrible are the pains of hell or of purgatory which we have deserved;”

Ginger

Ginger how could I miss it. And PLEASE compare it to the CCC. And then show me the DIFFERENCE!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well, first peace be with you. Lets get started my friend in Christ:

1. The need to confess to a priest for forgiveness of sins and calling him father in the process of it all. Yes, I know most Catholics will say you can confess straight to the Heavenly “FATHER”, so why have something you don’t need and say it is required per the scriptures?
2. Assuming purgatory is a real place because of a vague statement in Maccabees (Apocrypha not considered or accepted as Canonical texts by Protestants). Still an interesting read non the less.
3. Forcing priests and nuns to stay unmarried. I understand what Saint Paul said that he wished everyone could be like him, but marriage was acceptable if one would fall into sin (living example of how some priests were tried and convicted for sexual misconduct). Maybe if they were allowed to have a partner this could have been avoided.
4. “Do this in remembrance of Me”. Not eat this bread and drink this wine that will literally turn into my flesh and body every time you partake of it.
5. The stressing of penance (continued human punishment for a sin/here we are purging again) as compared to forgiveness given to the one who repents to God directly through the acceptance of Christ as their savior (Grace has saved the believer who repents truthfully of his sins/why the need for added human punishment?).

Yes, all of these points have been beaten to death by Protestants and they will continue to be stressed until the scriptures are taught by Catholics the way they read as inspired by our Father.

However, once again I will say that we as Protestants should be eternally grateful to the Catholic Church for spreading the message of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. However, Catholics should be internally grateful to Martin Luther for standing up to the corrupt practices of the Catholic church back then and [SIGN]Catholic Doctrine does not out weigh the truth opointing out how f Scripture alone.[/SIGN] Even Pope John Paul II stressed the importance of Martin Luther’s contribution to the truth through scripture.

Take Care fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Ed

Ed I just am speechless with that one! I gotta take a few minutes to let that one sink in. For the love of Peter even The scripture tells you not to go by scripture alone. But to go by SS and Oral Tradition. And by the Early Fathers of the Church! Holy Smokes!

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well, first peace be with you. Lets get started my friend in Christ:

1. The need to confess to a priest for forgiveness of sins and calling him father in the process of it all. Yes, I know most Catholics will say you can confess straight to the Heavenly “FATHER”, so [SIGN]why have something you don’t need and say it is required per the scriptures?[/SIGN]
2. Assuming purgatory is a real place because of a vague statement in Maccabees (Apocrypha not considered or accepted as Canonical texts by Protestants). Still an interesting read non the less.
3. Forcing priests and nuns to stay unmarried. I understand what Saint Paul said that he wished everyone could be like him, but marriage was acceptable if one would fall into sin (living example of how some priests were tried and convicted for sexual misconduct). Maybe if they were allowed to have a partner this could have been avoided.
4. “Do this in remembrance of Me”. Not eat this bread and drink this wine that will literally turn into my flesh and body every time you partake of it.
5. The stressing of penance (continued human punishment for a sin/here we are purging again) as compared to forgiveness given to the one who repents to God directly through the acceptance of Christ as their savior (Grace has saved the believer who repents truthfully of his sins/why the need for added human punishment?).

Yes, all of these points have been beaten to death by Protestants and they will continue to be stressed until the scriptures are taught by Catholics the way they read as inspired by our Father.

However, once again I will say that we as Protestants should be eternally grateful to the Catholic Church for spreading the message of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. However, Catholics should be internally grateful to Martin Luther for standing up to the corrupt practices of the Catholic church back then and pointing out how Catholic Doctrine does not out weigh the truth of Scripture alone. Even Pope John Paul II stressed the importance of Martin Luther’s contribution to the truth through scripture.

Take Care fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Ed

Its not. Tell me what does this mean and why did Jesus say it? Jn 20:23 Jesus told his apostles If YOU forgive the sins of ANY they are forgiven if You retain the sins of any they are retained. Now if that ain’t scripture what is?

 

[rinnie]

Ginger by the way. ITs time for this question. Can’t wait to hear it from you.

THE TIME HAS COME!

Ready here it is;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;drum roll please

You WERE Catholic correct. Okay so this should be a easy one for you.

Do you know what Dogma is?

Do you know what Doctrine is?

Tried to hold off with the question but its time.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Actually Jason it’really a state. But its like when you are dreaming your body is sleeping but at the time you don’t know it. Do you understand what I mean? Its a state of mind at the time.

But you know how when we die our soul leaves the body. Well as Catholic’s we know the soul makes the body the body does not make the soul. Like when we die the body is dead only because the soul leaves it.

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

The definition is a little confusing because it says place, but then a condition…perhaps in some way it is both??

It would seem to me to accept what the Bible teaches, which is absent from the body is to be home with the Lord for those He called.

Here is how the Holy Spirit put it via the apostles Paul:
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

I cannot find anything in the Bible that remotely resembles a place to be purified; but the Bible says that God can only rest in that which is Holy and He says we are holy and our bodies are the Lords temple for the Spirits dwelling place.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Seems that purgatory must have been something that came about over some period of time; most likely after 312ad. I don’t know; I don’t believe it exists.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Ginger by the way. ITs time for this question. Can’t wait to hear it from you.

THE TIME HAS COME!

Ready here it is;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;drum roll please

You WERE Catholic correct. Okay so this should be a easy one for you.

Do you know what Dogma is?

Do you know what Doctrine is?

Tried to hold off with the question but its time.

Dogma

1. A religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
2. A doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative
   Doctrine
   A belief or tenet (dogma), especially about philosophical or theological matters

Found only in Luke 2:1

Taken in the sense of “the act of teaching” and “the knowledge imparted by teaching”, this term is synonymous with CATECHESIS and CATECHISM
newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm

CATECHISM:The word katechesis means instruction by word of mouth, especially by questioning and answering. Though it may apply to any subject-matter, it is commonly used for instruction in the elements ofreligion, especially preparation for initiation into Christianity. newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm

katēcheō: to teach orally, to instruct

What is interesting on this little search is that Luke uses the things that were heard and put them in writing and still uses the word “katecheo” in chapter 1

"it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write {it} out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught (katecheo).

So Luke is writing the things down that were taught orally, which is true of the Bible we have today. Good example of the oral being put to the written to be better preserved; this was true of the OT as well.

 

[SimonArizona]

It would seem to me to accept what the Bible teaches, which is “absent from the body is to be home with the Lord”

Thats not what the bible says.

it says 2Cr 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

That does not say to be absent from the body is to be home with the lord. There is also hell.

the thief on the cross, where did he go?

 

[rinnie]

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

The definition is a little confusing because it says place, but then a condition…perhaps in some way it is both??

It would seem to me to accept what the Bible teaches, which is absent from the body is to be home with the Lord for those He called.

Here is how the Holy Spirit put it via the apostles Paul:
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

I cannot find anything in the Bible that remotely resembles a place to be purified; but the Bible says that God can only rest in that which is Holy and He says we are holy and our bodies are the Lords temple for the Spirits dwelling place.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Seems that purgatory must have been something that came about over some period of time; most likely after 312ad. I don’t know; I don’t believe it exists.

To make this as short and simple as I can here it is. Purgatory as a place has never been church doctrine. Like I told Jason your soul does not take up space you know what I mean. Your soul is your spirit it leaves your body so it does not actually need a Place to go. But to refer to it as a place isn’t actually wrong because its kinda like a place in your mind. But its not like a place we see here on earth,

Anyway the bible says there is a final purification for all who die in Gods grace and friendship. That means no Grave (we call in mortal sin). What that means mortal sin you are out. No chance its over.

Now if you die in Gods grace and friendship but need that final cleansing thats what we refer to as purgatory. Its really that simple. A name we give for the final cleansing. Purged purgatory get it. ITs really in the bible.

When we die we immediately go to judgement. If we do not need the final cleansing its straight to heaven. You made it! Your in. Case Closed!

In the RC church we call the final cleansing purgatory thats really it. Why people make such a big deal I will never know.

So rather you want to refer to it as a state, a place who cares. The bottom line is its a TEMPORAL place you suffer for anything that is missing to make you become Perfect to Enter heaven.

Now it is nothing like the suffering of hell. And the reason we welcome it is we know the outcome now. Its like there is no pain or suffering in this world that isn’t worth it, if you know when its over you get to be with God. So its like bring it on! ANd we know GOd will never give us more then we can handle. Its like suffering here in a way, anytime we suffer God makes us such a better person because of it.

BUt the most important point that people miss. Its easy to bypass purgatory do your time here. Get rid of the sin, Confession. The GRACE God left you so you could be with him sooner. Why would you deny yourself that gift. Why protestants refuse to accept this gift I will never understand. But hey you got free will. God gave it to you. BUt he gave it to me. And I want the gift, and Im taking it. THe more grace I can receive in this world IM IN BABY!

And no its no new. ITs been in the bible like forever. The final Purification. You can’t say you never saw it.

But okay you disagree with the Church teaching of the final Purification. Now you tell me then, If the CHurch is wrong then what is the final purification?

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Thats not what the bible says.

it says 2Cr 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

That does not say to be absent from the body is to be home with the lord. There is also hell.

the thief on the cross, where did he go?

You are not making any sense; I quoted on the post directly from scripture. I’ll do it again and you can take it up with God if you choose.

2 Corinthians 5:5-9 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

 

[SimonArizona]

You are not making any sense; I quoted on the post directly from scripture. I’ll do it again and you can take it up with God if you choose.

2 Corinthians 5:5-9 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

let me clarify. You said that the bible says “to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.” You say it like its an absolute. Like “what goes up, must come down.” But St. Paul is saying “we would rather be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.” To be absent from the body can be

1. to be at home with the Lord
2. to be cast out into outer darkness
3. to be on our way home in purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

You are not making any sense; I quoted on the post directly from scripture. I’ll do it again and you can take it up with God if you choose.

2 Corinthians 5:5-9 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

JB please don’t do that. ITs a cop out. You got called on what you said, now defend it. No one denied the scripture its your take on it that we disagree with. And now you let them show you where they disagree with your take, and you can let them explain their take. And then you can see what they are trying to show you.

 

[JohnnyBeth]

To make this as short and simple as I can here it is. Purgatory as a place has never been church doctrine. Like I told Jason your soul does not take up space you know what I mean. Your soul is your spirit it leaves your body so it does not actually need a Place to go. But to refer to it as a place isn’t actually wrong because its kinda like a place in your mind. But its not like a place we see here on earth,

Anyway the bible says there is a final purification for all who die in Gods grace and friendship. That means no Grave (we call in mortal sin). What that means mortal sin you are out. No chance its over.

Now if you die in Gods grace and friendship but need that final cleansing thats what we refer to as purgatory. Its really that simple. A name we give for the final cleansing. Purged purgatory get it. ITs really in the bible.

When we die we immediately go to judgement. If we do not need the final cleansing its straight to heaven. You made it! Your in. Case Closed!

In the RC church we call the final cleansing purgatory thats really it. Why people make such a big deal I will never know.

So rather you want to refer to it as a state, a place who cares. The bottom line is its a TEMPORAL place you suffer for anything that is missing to make you become Perfect to Enter heaven.

Now it is nothing like the suffering of hell. And the reason we welcome it is we know the outcome now. Its like there is no pain or suffering in this world that isn’t worth it, if you know when its over you get to be with God. So its like bring it on! ANd we know GOd will never give us more then we can handle. Its like suffering here in a way, anytime we suffer God makes us such a better person because of it.

BUt the most important point that people miss. Its easy to bypass purgatory do your time here. Get rid of the sin, Confession. The GRACE God left you so you could be with him sooner. Why would you deny yourself that gift. Why protestants refuse to accept this gift I will never understand. But hey you got free will. God gave it to you. BUt he gave it to me. And I want the gift, and Im taking it. THe more grace I can receive in this world IM IN BABY!

And no its no new. ITs been in the bible like forever. The final Purification. You can’t say you never saw it.

But okay you disagree with the Church teaching of the final Purification. Now you tell me then, If the CHurch is wrong then what is the final purification?

The Bible you did not quote as I did from the words of Paul that clearly indicate what happens to the spirit upon physical death for only those in Christ.

You are correct that God’s grace is a gift to all mankind in the way it rains & sunshines on the saved and unsaved, but the salvific grace is (name removed by moderator)uted at the moment of justification or made righteous in His sight to only those God has choose; just as David and Abraham and all the saints were made righteous.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”

This is a definitive verse (above)onthe gift of salvation through faith in God. It appears that Catholics seem to ignore this clear passage and do not accept this exactly as stated, but chose to add some merit of their own to it. I accept what God says on this at face value. I also believe this knits together well with Pauls comments on being absent from this body and being present with the Lord.

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him. "

“being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

I have more, but my internet connection is pretending to be dial up at the moment…LOL
JB

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

 

[Ginger2]

Purgatory as a place between heaven and hell is a myth.

There is no in-between. We have two choices believe in the Son and live or deny the Son and die.

Macc 2 which you use to support this false doctrine contradicts, not only God’s Holy Word, but it even contradicts Catholic doctrine!

1. The soldiers who died were wearing idols. That is a mortal sin. Dying in mortal: Go straight to hell.
2. These were Jews. They met they criteria for a sin to be mortal according Catholics.
   Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
   Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
   Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Ginger

 

[JohnnyBeth]

let me clarify. You said that the bible says “to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.” You say it like its an absolute. Like “what goes up, must come down.” But St. Paul is saying “we would rather be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.” To be absent from the body can be

1. to be at home with the Lord
2. to be cast out into outer darkness
3. to be on our way home in purgatory.

Since it was Paul speaking to believers, the little importance of context, it is just as Paul said. There is no thrid choice overall. Those who die go heaven or they go to hell. If there existed a state inbetween the Bible would make it as clear as it does heaven and as hell, but it doesn’t because it is not there. As I said before; I wonder where the origin of purgatory came from; it sounds like greek or roman mythology to me?

You only believe purgatory because you are told that the"faithful" are to believe it.