Protestant interpretations...

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN]

The Bible you did not quote as I did from the words of Paul that clearly indicate what happens to the spirit upon physical death for only those in Christ.

You are correct that God’s grace is a gift to all mankind in the way it rains & sunshines on the saved and unsaved, but the salvific grace is (name removed by moderator)uted at the moment of justification or [SIGN]made righteous in His sight to only those God has choose; just as David and Abraham and all [/SIGN]the saints were made righteous.

“[SIGN]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”[/SIGN]
This is a definitive verse (above)onthe gift of salvation through faith in God. It appears that Catholics seem to ignore this clear passage and do not accept this exactly as stated, but chose to add some merit of their own to it. I accept what God says on this at face value. I also believe this knits together well with Pauls comments on being absent from this body and being present with the Lord.

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him. "

“being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

I have more, but my internet connection is pretending to be dial up at the moment…LOL
JB

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

What are you saying that Gods grace can not go beyond this world or what. Are you saying that Gods Grace cannot extend to Purgatory? I have no idea what you are trying to say. OR do you deny that the Bible says that there is a final purification at all?

OR what are you really talking about? And where did the Catholic faith every deny that everything come from God and his Grace. Where did the CC every say we can do anything without the grace of God. Actually the Church says the opposite All things are through the Grace of God. All goodness comes from God.

SO you are either misunderstand the teaching of the CC or misunderstood me or something.

But hey I got a real busy week end, will try to check in, but if not will be back beginning of week for sure. Weekends fly for me. God Bless.[SIGN][/SIGN] The church has always taught its by GRACE not faith alone.

 

[teak421]

[SIGN][/SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN]

But hey I got a real busy week end, will try to check in, but if not will be back beginning of week for sure. Weekends fly for me. God Bless.[SIGN][/SIGN] The church has always taught its by GRACE not faith alone.

That right there hit the nail on the head… Its GRACE! No amount of works, no amount of faith would do us ANY good if Christ did not merit us salvation on the Cross! Period… This is taught directly in the Roman Catholic Catechism… But yet, we still have to endure (me, before I converted) that we Catholics teach salvation by works… Now, once we’ve accepted the Merits of Christ, we do need to do his Will, namely, doing the two greatest commandants laid out for us by Christ.

Great point on the Grace!!

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

[SIGN][/SIGN][SIGN][/SIGN]

What are you saying that Gods grace can not go beyond this world or what. Are you saying that Gods Grace cannot extend to Purgatory? I have no idea what you are trying to say. OR do you deny that the Bible says that there is a final purification at all?

OR what are you really talking about? And where did the Catholic faith every deny that everything come from God and his Grace. Where did the CC every say we can do anything without the grace of God. Actually the Church says the opposite All things are through the Grace of God. All goodness comes from God.

SO you are either misunderstand the teaching of the CC or misunderstood me or something.

But hey I got a real busy week end, will try to check in, but if not will be back beginning of week for sure. Weekends fly for me. God Bless.[SIGN][/SIGN] The church has always taught its [sign]by GRACE not faith alone.[/sign]

Seems like you are reading more into everything; what I said is pretty clear and needs no clarification. If it is not by faith, then by what?

 

[Scoobyshme]

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but this idea that no one could read before the Europeans came to the Americas is getting old.

The Jews had schools for children even before the time of Jesus. Children were educated.

Matthew was a tax collector. All he needed to know was how to count money. Yet he wrote an articulate rendition of events concerning Jesus - no small task. Mark is believed to have been a companion of Paul, and he could read and write. etc.,…

Tons of people wrote false gospels to confound and deceive Christians very soon after Christ ascended. Was it only Apostles and heretics you think could read?

Ginger

Ginger, I never said no one could read. I said the “vast majority” could not read before the 1800’s. Of course there were exceptions, but they were just that…exceptions. Had Jesus founded a “Bible reading, self-interpreting” Church like Protestants seem to believe, then He would have excluded at least 98% of the earth’s population from the faith!

The Catholic Church assembled the Bible in the 4th century in the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.). It is by the Catholic Church’s authority that you have a New Testament. God did not reach a Big Hand down and hand someone an English language King James and say, "Here’s all you need. Read it and I guarantee you’ll get the right interpretation. Jesus trained Apostles before and after His passion, death and ressurection and commanded them to go forth and “teach and preach” all that He had taught them. He never once said, “Go forth and write!”

Without an authentic interpeter of the Bible, you have what Protestantism has devolved into: thousands upon thousands of man-made, self-interpreting denominations, constantly splintering based on someone’s personal and different interpretation of the Scriptures, without any authority to do so.

 

[Ginger2]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You continue to say this. BUt you avoid the proof. Show me. Show me one teaching that the CHurch has taught as dogma and then turned around and changed it. You must show me the official document that has been changed.

Again show me proof!

lol You keep narrowing the criteria. Now simply showing new doctrines developed, and founded on false documents, is not enough!

“No salvation outside the Church” (Lateran IV)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal;** but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her;** and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

Oops, Vatican II says there are exceptions to this absolute ex-cathedral doctrine

First absolutely no salvation outside membership in RC, then some outside RC might be saved.

 

[teak421]

Seems like you are reading more into everything; what I said is pretty clear and needs no clarification. If it is not by faith, then by what?

GRACE!

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

That right there hit the nail on the head… Its GRACE! No amount of works, no amount of faith would do us ANY good if Christ did not merit us salvation on the Cross! Period… This is taught directly in the Roman Catholic Catechism… But yet, we still have to endure (me, before I converted) that we Catholics teach salvation by works… Now, once we’ve accepted the Merits of Christ, we do need to do his Will, namely, doing the two greatest commandants laid out for us by Christ.

Great point on the Grace!!

• Michael

Do you actually know what His will is? There is a difference between commands and the will albeit the command will contain His will. You say we “need to do”; whereas I would say “I want to do and can’t help myself but to do”.

If justification is acheived by something outside of God; then the leven ruiins the gift and is no longer a gift; can you explain?

 

[teak421]

Do you actually know what His will is? There is a difference between commands and the will albeit the command will contain His will. You say we “need to do”; whereas I would say “I want to do and can’t help myself but to do”.

If justification is acheived by something outside of God; then the leven ruiins the gift and is no longer a gift; can you explain?

You said its achieved by FAITH. I disagree completely with you. I’ll say again, no amount or FAITH or WORKS can merit us salvation… ONLY Christ who died on the Cross can Merit us salvation.

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

lol You keep narrowing the criteria. Now simply showing new doctrines developed, and founded on false documents, is not enough!

“No salvation outside the Church” (Lateran IV)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal;** but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her;** and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

Oops, Vatican II says there are exceptions to this absolute ex-cathedral doctrine

First absolutely no salvation outside membership in RC, then some outside RC might be saved.

That’s a good one, but I’m sure you must be wrong. Isn’t the new term “separated brothers” as opposed to “you are damned”? Correct me if I got that wrong, which I probably did.

 

[teak421]

Do you actually know what His will is? There is a difference between commands and the will albeit the command will contain His will. You say we “need to do”; whereas I would say “I want to do and can’t help myself but to do”.

If justification is acheived by something outside of God; then the leven ruiins the gift and is no longer a gift; can you explain?

Oh! His will is for us… to do the two greatest commandants laid out for us by Christ… Love the Lord with all our heart, mind and soul and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

That about pretty much covers it, don’t ya think?

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

You said its achieved by FAITH. I disagree completely with you. I’ll say again, no amount or FAITH or WORKS can merit us salvation… ONLY Christ who died on the Cross can Merit us salvation.

• Michael

Mt 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. *Seeing their faith, Jesus said *to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mt 9:22But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Mt 9:29Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

Lu 7:50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

You can take your argument up with Jesus rather than me (above)?

1Pe 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

You might debate with Peter (above)?

Ro 3:28For we maintain that *a man is justified by faith *apart from works of the Law.

Ro 3:30since indeed *God who will justify the circumcised by faith *and the *uncircumcised through faith *is one.

Ro 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

How do we get this faith?
Ro 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Ga 2:16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be *justified by faith in Christ *and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Ga 3:22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Ga 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

You can take it up with the apostle Paul (above)?

I take my orders from God and if He say we are to live by faith, justified by faith, saved by faith, then I am onboard.

 

[rinnie]

lol You keep narrowing the criteria. Now simply showing new doctrines developed, and founded on false documents, is not enough!

“No salvation outside the Church” (Lateran IV)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff”(Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal;** but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her;** and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

Oops, Vatican II says there are exceptions to this absolute ex-cathedral doctrine

First absolutely no salvation outside membership in RC, then some outside RC might be saved.

You heard the man loud and clear the first time. You just again as usual cannot understand a single word he is saying Kinda like you do with scripture

You take something that is said, you turn in around (try to anyway) to fit what you want it to say, and it never works. The Pope NEVER may I repeat NEVER said anything even remote to what you are saying he said.

But Now I feel so so much better. You not only do it to me, you do it to the Church and now the Pope. I am in GOOD COMPANY. My MAN the Pope has the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. LET me repeat THE KEYS TO THE KINGDOM! Now let me help you with that and define it for you. The Kingdom is not his HOME IN ROME

Now you have showed me nothing as usual. You have still never showed me where the Church changed the teaching on purgatory yet. Lets stick with that instead of running from one place to another.

I will try to check back sometime this weekend. LEts see if you can show me where the CCC and the teaching you showed contradict eachother. Lets start there. One subject at a time.

 

[teak421]

Mt 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. *Seeing their faith, Jesus said *to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mt 9:22But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Mt 9:29Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

Lu 7:50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

You can take your argument up with Jesus rather than me (above)?

1Pe 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

You might debate with Peter (above)?

Ro 3:28For we maintain that *a man is justified by faith *apart from works of the Law.

Ro 3:30since indeed *God who will justify the circumcised by faith *and the *uncircumcised through faith *is one.

Ro 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

How do we get this faith?
Ro 10:17 So faith {comes} from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Ga 2:16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be *justified by faith in Christ *and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Ga 3:22But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Ga 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

You can take it up with the apostle Paul (above)?

I take my orders from God and if He say we are to live by faith, justified by faith, saved by faith, then I am onboard.

Think about what I am saying… I am saying that the saving action is NOT my faith, its the MERIT Christ did for us on the Cross. That is the GRACE. The question becomes, how does one access that Grace… And, that’s through FAITH.

Very important, but small distinction I am making… Our faith is what gives us ACCESS to his GRACE. But, I’ll say again, no amount of faith or works can MERIT us salvation unless Christ died on the cross. This is the official Catholic teaching… Do you have an issue with what I just said? If you do, you are saying that an action (work) on your part has allowed you to be saved… Having FAITH is something I (ME and ONLY ME) do (work)… I am not comfortable with saying I had anything to do to merit my salvation.

I have satisfaction before God not because of my Faith, but because Christ died on the Cross for me. What puts me in right standing before God? Grace or Faith?

• Michael

 

[rinnie]

Ginger, I[SIGN] never said no one could read[/SIGN]. I said the “vast majority” could not read before the 1800’s. Of course there were exceptions, but they were just that…exceptions. Had Jesus founded a “Bible reading, self-interpreting” Church like Protestants seem to believe, then He would have excluded at least 98% of the earth’s population from the faith!

The Catholic Church assembled the Bible in the 4th century in the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.). It is by the Catholic Church’s authority that you have a New Testament. God did not reach a Big Hand down and hand someone an English language King James and say, "Here’s all you need. Read it and I guarantee you’ll get the right interpretation. Jesus trained Apostles before and after His passion, death and ressurection and commanded them to go forth and “teach and preach” all that He had taught them. He never once said, “Go forth and write!”

Without an authentic interpeter of the Bible, you have what Protestantism has devolved into: thousands upon thousands of man-made, self-interpreting denominations, constantly splintering based on someone’s personal and different interpretation of the Scriptures, without any authority to do so.

She does it to me all the time. Don’t feel bad scooby. She’s even did it to the Pope![SIGN][/SIGN] She will tell you what you are saying rather you said it or not!

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Oh! His will is for us… to do the two greatest commandants laid out for us by Christ… Love the Lord with all our heart, mind and soul and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

That about pretty much covers it, don’t ya think?

• Michael

You may want to start here when it comes to the “will” of God.

Joh 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

As you can see His will and His commands are not exactly the same because in His will; we need to exercise some of that “free-will”. It starts by choosing salvation

JB

 

[teak421]

You may want to start here when it comes to the “will” of God.

Joh 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

1Th 4:3For this is the will of God, your sanctification; {that is,} that you abstain from sexual immorality;

As you can see His will and His commands are not exactly the same because in His will; we need to exercise some of that “free-will”. It starts by choosing salvation

JB

JB, if I did the two greatest commandants the verses you listed above wouldn’t be an issue! Think about it, why would I do immoral things if I loved the Lord with all my heart mind and soul? Or treat anyone like a sexual object if I loved them correctly?

• Michael

 

[JohnnyBeth]

Think about what I am saying… I am saying that the saving action is NOT my faith, its the MERIT Christ did for us on the Cross. That is the GRACE. The question becomes, how does one access that Grace… And, that’s through FAITH.

Very important, but small distinction I am making… Our faith is what gives us ACCESS to his GRACE. But, I’ll say again, no amount of faith or works can MERIT us salvation unless Christ died on the cross. This is the official Catholic teaching… Do you have an issue with what I just said? If you do, you are saying that an action (work) on your part has allowed you to be saved… Having FAITH is something I (ME and ONLY ME) do (work)… I am not comfortable with saying I had anything to do to merit my salvation.

I have satisfaction before God not because of my Faith, but because Christ died on the Cross for me. What puts me in right standing before God? Grace or Faith?

• Michael

Your answer lies in the previous pos, but Romans 5:1 will answer your question. I agree that it all of God’s salvific grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. You will not adhere to the “faith alone”; you must add something to the faith, which is what? You can’t add grace; all of grace needed to be justified is given freely through “faith”; so what can you add to faith? Nothing.

 

[rinnie]

I would like to make a statement. And as clear as I can so it is not turned around on me.

The Baltimore Catechism was used for American Parishes a generations ago.

It has never changed from the CCC.

The only difference is the CCC reaches into the scriptures to give you a better understanding. Thats it.

Example What is a sacrament. A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Old Def.

New def. Same thing. But then John Paul 11 takes these sacraments piece by piece and shows you how Jesus showed these signs in the bible. Thats it.

Just like Purgatory read what GINGER quoted and then the CCC. Same teaching, just one is explained in greater detail. Thats it!

Don’t believe me go back and read them. You will see its the truth!

 

[Luke65]

The Bible you did not quote as I did from the words of Paul that clearly indicate what happens to the spirit upon physical death for only those in Christ.

No, it doesn’t. You’re assuming that, but that is not what St. Paul said. Read more carefully: (oops, I just noticed Simon already answered this point, but here’s more)

“knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord”

Did Paul say: “knowing that when we are not at home in the body we will be with the Lord”? No.

“prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

Yes, we would “prefer” for this life to be over “and” be with God. We would prefer not to have to go through Purgatory when we die. We would prefer to be able to eat, drink and be merry today, and go straight to Heaven tomorrow. Yes, that sure does tickle the ears.

It is written: “When we die those of us who are saved will immediately be with the Lord in Heaven forever!” No it isn’t - God never said that. I wonder why?

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:25-26 NIV)

Hmm, sounds like we might need some kind of indulgence to get out of “prison”.

“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.” (Luke 12:47-48)

Give me an indulgence!

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8)

I thought Christ “covered over” our sins. Oh you’re right, Peter, the Bible never says that Christ “covers over” our sins - I wonder why Protestants say that? Only we can “cover over” sins. Only Christ can “wash away” sin. Christ paid the eternal debt for our sins. We pay the temporal price for our sins. And if we don’t pay that debt while we’re still on Earth, then we will not get out of Purgatory until we have paid the last penny.

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

“No favoritism”? But we’re Christians!

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded” (Luke 12:48)

 

[teak421]

Your answer lies in the previous pos, but Romans 5:1 will answer your question. I agree that it all of grace alone, through faith alone, in Chrsit alone. You will not adhere to the “faith alone”; you must add something to the faith, which is what? You can’t add grace; it is all of grace through “faith”; so what can you add to faith? Nothing.

I will not adhere to faith alone? What do you mean? How clear can I get? I’ve taken offense that even the work of faith on my part can not save, but ONLY grace. How more clear can I get?

Read the section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on Grace and Justification. Its Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 3, Article 2.

Here’s a couple of quotes… (it does a much better job at explaining than I do!)

*1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith.

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. *

Have a nice weekend!

• Michael