Protestant music during Mass

[OraLabora]

I enjoy Spirituals and like Johnny Cash and the Carter family. I just don’t think it is music for Mass.

Try the version by Kathleen Battle from her album Grace (you can probably find it on iTunes). Much better. The lyrics certainly are completely appropriate.

While I prefer chant, some hymns, even written by protestants, are worthy enough for the Mass.

 

[exnihilo]

I gave it a listen. I much prefer Johnny Cash’s version. It is more authentic. Spirituals were written to be sung by common folk. In that way it is more like chant.

My issues isn’t just with the style of the music. It is also the lyrics. There is nothing wrong with them. But they are not very deep and very repetitive.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Spirituals were written to be sung by common folk. In that way it is more like chant.

Chant wasn’t designed to be sung by common folk. There was nothing “simple” or “primitive” about it. It was designed to be sung by exclusively by clerics in their daily liturgical offices and the Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

My issues isn’t just with the style of the music. It is also the lyrics. There is nothing wrong with them. But they are not very deep and very repetitive.

Fair enough but as you said it was meant for common folk so is simple and easy to memorize. Perhaps more appropriate for working in the fields or on a chain gang…

Chant wasn’t designed to be sung by common folk. There was nothing “simple” or “primitive” about it. It was designed to be sung by exclusively by clerics in their daily liturgical offices and the Mass.

This is very true. Even the Divine Office, prior to the Council, was never intended for the laity. At Mass, all the great propers were chanted by the schola, I sing in a schola and it is true, chant requires some expertise to do well. And unless it was a dialogue Mass, the responses would be by the altar servers.

People complain sometimes that the OF Mass is a show, where the priest gets to show off, but much the same could be said of an EF Mass without participation by the laity. Some perhaps would pray along with the missal, in silence, but the evidence of many people simply clicking away a rosary or two during Mass is enough to suggest that, especially a solemn High Mass, was a lot of pomp and circumstance observed from the pews.

In monasteries, chant was usually complex enough that the community was divided into choir monks and lay brothers, the former dedicated mostly to the liturgy and studies, the latter to the manual labour. The lay brothers didn’t even attend the Divine Office except maybe on high occasions. They had their own Little Office; they often would attend a very early low Mass so they could get busy in the fields, while the choir monks had a later Conventual Mass.

Vatican II did away with these distinctions as St. Benedict’s rule never intended them nor mentioned them, so it’s no surprise that many monasteries adopted the vernacular and simplified their chant at the same time. Our abbey kept Latin Gregorian chant for Lauds and Vespers and hymns at the other hours, but does the rest in French plainchant.

 

[exnihilo]

Chant wasn’t designed to be sung by common folk. There was nothing “simple” or “primitive” about it. It was designed to be sung by exclusively by clerics in their daily liturgical offices and the Mass.

I’d encourage you to research the topic. Some chant is more complex and sung by more trained or experienced persons. But chant in an unqualified sense was for the common person. It is unquestionably more for the common person than many modern hymns which have a range and transitions that that are far more challenging for most people.

 

[OraLabora]

I’d encourage you to research the topic. Some chant is more complex and sung by more trained or experienced persons. But chant in an unqualified sense was for the common person. It is unquestionably more for the common person than many modern hymns which have a range and transitions that that are far more challenging for most people.

Chant, at least the Propers, was definitely never intended for the laity. Take a mode V Gradual with change of key midway for instance, or some incredibly complex offertories,

Even some of the settings of the Kyriale are pretty complex and difficult, except for the best known ones such as Lent/Advent, Easter and Sundays and weekdays throughout the year.

There’s no way the average parishioner could pull off anything else but the simplest settings without sounding coarse. Badly done Gregorian chant sounds awful.

Even for the simpler settings, like I said unless it was a dialogue Mass, it was reserved for the altar servers. Only dialogue Masses involved the laity, except for some Low Masses with vernacular hymns. And dialogue Masses were a relatively recent invention, post-dating Gregorian chant by several centuries.

 

[AndrewAxland]

But chant in an unqualified sense was for the common person.

If by “common person”, you mean laity, then that be very false. It was reserved strictly for the clergy. If you mean, on the other hand, clerics who were not necessarily musically gifted, I’ll give you that point. Recitative chants were much easier to sing than more florid styles, as priests were often not gifted singers, unlike cantors.

 

[exnihilo]

Chant, at least the Propers, was definitely never intended for the laity. Take a mode V Gradual with change of key midway for instance, or some incredibly complex offertories,

If you take the more complex chants from a particular point in Church history then yes, you can say this. But chant is a much broader thing than that.

There’s no way the average parishioner could pull off anything else but the simplest settings without sounding coarse. Badly done Gregorian chant sounds awful.

If you took away the organ, piano and guitar most of the modern hymns sung at Mass would sound awful. They’d be far worse than chant. Most people are not good singers no matter what they try to sing. Most Catholics seem to have no instruction in how to sing well.

If by “common person”, you mean laity, then that be very false. It was reserved strictly for the clergy. If you mean, on the other hand, clerics who were not necessarily musically gifted, I’ll give you that point. Recitative chants were much easier to sing than more florid styles, as priests were often not gifted singers, unlike cantors.

I’m curious how you know this? What is the basis of your claim?

 

[OraLabora]

If you took away the organ, piano and guitar most of the modern hymns sung at Mass would sound awful. They’d be far worse than chant. Most people are not good singers no matter what they try to sing. Most Catholics seem to have no instruction in how to sing well.

Well as a fan of chant, I’m also not that fond of much of the modern stuff, but I’m also realistic.

I think Catholics aren’t good singers because for the most part, the music was provided for them, they were not part of it until just before the Council when dialogue Masses started to become more popular.

Some decades ago the Vatican wanted to broaden the use of chant and published the Graduale Simplex for use by less experienced choirs. The antiphons were simpler antiphons in the style of the Divine Office antiphons, using same psalm tones as used at the Divine Office. I have a copy, it’s a nice effort. We all know how well that worked out…

I do support projects though like Simple English Propers and I’ve seen similar work done locally at a Cistercian monastery, for French.

In theory the OF should simplify these efforts as it is not so rigid as the EF. Vernacular chant is allowed, which greatly enhances the possibility of lay participation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

We just sang “They’ll Know We Are Christians” at Mass last Sunday.

Despite the “old hippie” connotations of the song (it always makes me feel like I’m on some kind of a civil rights march), it’s a fun one to sing at church. It’s easy to play and sing, which means it sounds better than a lot of the more difficult stuff that the musicians either fumble or the congregation has trouble joining in on.

 

[exnihilo]

It is fun to sing, in the proper context. I’d argue the Mass is not that context.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s not like there were many “Catholic” hymns in English before VII to choose from. I know protestants that like “Catholic” songs all the same. Heck, I’ve sung the Battle Hymn of the Republic in church, not exactly your standard “Catholic” song.

I would prefer to sing the (Protestant) Battle Hymn of the Republic or “Just a Closer Walk with Thee” a thousand times before singing any of the (other Protestant) Marty Haugen hymns in our “Catholic” hymnbook.

 

[Ridgerunner]

it’s a fun one to sing at church. It’s easy to play and sing

A lot of newer hymns are not easy for Basses to sing, which I think is one of the reasons why a lot of men don’t singe in church. However, a lot of the old Protestant hymns were made so Basses could sing them.

My parish is in the Ozarks, so that would have something to do with it, but if the music director selects some of those “new” (1970s and early 1980s) hymns in the hymnal, the congregational participation is pretty thin. But add “How Great Thou Art” or something like it to the hymns at Mass and all of a sudden the volume increases dramatically.

Some of the newer stuff is just not easy to sing and is too ornate for a lot of people. Those old hymns were made for congregational singing. A lot of the newer ones, I think, were written for a small group with a guitar or something.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Well, how would the basses / tenors / altos know what to sing? I don’t think I have ever seen 4-part harmony in a Catholic hymnal.

 

[exnihilo]

As mentioned with no parts listed how do we know what to sing? Most women can’t sing the soprano for many songs either. They lack the range. As a Protestant I remember the warble of older ladies in the choir who should have moved on to alto.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Some of the newer stuff is just not easy to sing and is too ornate for a lot of people. Those old hymns were made for congregational singing. A lot of the newer ones, I think, were written for a small group with a guitar or something.

That’s also my impression. I have some training/ practice in singing performance, and even I can’t sing some of this stuff easily.

Also, even with the hymns in the hymnbook, there can be serious problems of pitch when a soprano is leading. I just came from Mass this morning where some lady with a beautiful, obviously trained soprano voice was cantor. She was lovely to listen to but almost impossible to sing along with because she was pitched up in the heavens. I am a first soprano myself and was having trouble reaching the notes.

 

[exnihilo]

That and the style of singing people often used by they cantor is more fitting for a performance. The words are often impossible to understand, which misses the point of the supposed need for vernacular singing by the people.

 

[Spyridon]

Vernacular chant is allowed, which greatly enhances the possibility of lay participation.

Yes!

They do sacred polyphony in the vernacular quite well.

I’m sure we could do the same with chant.

I’m a huge advocate of the vernacular - probably my Eastern sensibilities. The Liturgy was never intended to be prayed in unintelligible tongues.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I can pick out 4 part harmonies by ear as can all of my family, many friends.

 

[AndrewAxland]

I’m curious how you know this? What is the basis of your claim?

Congregational singing was scaled back starting no later that the Council of Laodicea, which stated “No others shall sing in the Church, save only the canonical singers, who go up into the ambo and sing from a book.” (This means clerics only). The process was essentially complete by the time that the Second Council of Tours ended the practice in France, one of the last holdouts, stating that “the laity, whether in vigils or at Masses, should not presume to stand with the clergy near the altar whereon the Sacred Mysteries are celebrated, and that the chancel should be reserved to the choirs of singing clerics”.

From then on, lay participation in the liturgy was extremely limited until about the middle of the 1800s. Lay congregational singing and singing extra-liturgical hymns during the liturgy was tolerated only in the 1500s (with the exception of pre-pubescent boys, which was allowed, or at least tolerated, in some areas starting in the tenth century). Women were forbidden to sing at all in church starting in the fourth century or so, and were not explicitly allowed to sing again until 1954 under limited conditions, and fully only in 1983. Of course, the practice had been sometimes more, sometimes less tolerated in places starting in the late 1600s, though it didn’t gain impetus until the 1800s.