Protestant Objections to Purgatory

[Mount_Carmel]

Lets face it. Catholics have objections to purgatory.

Yes, it is a natural human reaction to want to personally avoid any [painful] consequences of sinfullness and selfish indulgence. So the scene is then psychologically set to dump ALL upon Another - sin your life away and still get into Heaven as a spiritually stainless soul the easy way.

What Jesus did by His Cross and Resurrection was remove the automatic spiritual ‘Death Sentence’ brought about by our sins,

His sacrifice did not automatically free us from the staining to our soul and spirituality of ‘our’ sin. So if ‘we’ are to attain that spotlessness required to enter Heaven, we must serve our time either by ‘sufficient’ good works in this world or in spiritual [self-imposed] ‘clink’ in the next. For many it is a combination of the two.

In addition, the appeals through prayer and good works of others on behalf of those ‘in the clink’ is heard by the Merciful Judge who can as a result mitigate and foreshorten that ‘sentence’.

 

[Steveabrous]

It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven.

The only thing the Catholic church says about purgatory is that when a person dies and is saved, before they can enter heaven they must be purified first. Thats it, all else is theological/scholarly speculation.

I don’t understand why you are objecting to purgatory on the grounds that you are. I know the orthodox don’t believe in “Purgatory”, but my understanding is that they do believe something simular happens after death. Or am I wrong? Do the orthodox believe, as the protestants do, that after you die you go straight to heaven or hell?

 

[bzkoss236]

What you described sounds more like Theosis, not Purgatory. But they are not synonymous. Theosis already is the heavenly state, and there is no punishment or torment.

Actually, Theosis sounds a lot like purgatory.

 

[BeProfOSX]

Basically the protestant objections to Purgatory all boil down to sola scriptura. We just don’t see it clearly in the Bible, so we don’t believe in it.

Beyond that, Protestants, generally, don’t make a distinction between moral and venial sin. To us, all sin is both mortal (in the sense that any sin, no matter how small is sufficient in and of itself to condemn us to Hell) and venial (in the sense that no sin, no matter how great, is sufficient to separate us from the grace of God.)

We also, typically, make no distinction between the temporal and eternal punishment for sin. To us, all the punishment due sin is eternal and it is all paid for, once and for all, by Christ’s death. We may talk about temporal consequences, but we don’t see those as debts owed to God. If I punch you in the nose and break your glasses, for instance, I owe God one eternity in Hell for punching you in the nose, and I owe you one pair of glasses for the one I broke. If I don’t repay you, I may end up owing God another eternity in Hell for not paying my debt to you, but that’s beside the point.

Where we do, however, usually make a distinction is between the Heaven and Hell and the “intermediate state.” Protestants, generally, and especially those of the Dispensationalist variety, see a difference between the state that the dead (both just and unjust) are now in and the state that the living and the dead (both just and unjust) will be in after the Final Judgement. A few Protestants believe in a kind of “soul-sleep” where the dead are simply unconscious until the Resurrection. Most believe that the sanctified dead are enjoying the presence of God, in some way that we don’t fully understand, but that the full communion with God that we will enjoy in eternity is hidden from them until after they receive their glorified bodies. Likewise, the damned are suffering at least some kind of torment but that the true horrors of Hell won’t be revealed to them until after the Final Judgement.

Finally, there’s an awful lot of “squishiness” (for lack of a better term) on the whole notion of sanctification in Protestantism in general. Depending on your particular brand of Protestantism, sanctification is either something that happens slowly throughout this life and is finally culminated at the Resurrection or it’s something that happens slowly and then all at once, allowing us to be living saints right here on earth. Either way, sanctification is seen as something that is made fully complete at the Resurrection, with no additional purgation or preparation required.

That last point, however, is changing. It may surprise you to note that at least a few Protestant and even evangelical thinkers are starting to head in the direction of something very much like a very strictly, narrowly defined catholic conception of purgatory (even if they will never call it that.) Personally, I’m Pre-Millienialist (but not Dispensationalist) and I view the Millennial Kingdom (which, for Pre-Millenialists is after the Resurrection of the Righteous but before the General Resurrection and the Final Judgement) as being very much about preparing us for full communion with God in eternity.

 

[stewstew03]

Basically the protestant objections to Purgatory all boil down to sola scriptura. We just don’t see it clearly in the Bible, so we don’t believe in it.
…

And yet, you see “sola scriptura” clearly in the Bible??

#irony

 

[stewstew03]

Basically the protestant objections to Purgatory all boil down to sola scriptura. We just don’t see it clearly in the Bible, so we don’t believe in it.
…

Also, you seem to have found Pre-Millienialism very clearly laid out in the bible.

(more irony)

 

[stewstew03]

…

…like a very strictly, narrowly defined catholic conception of purgatory.

Is there any other kind?

 

[BeProfOSX]

Is there any other kind?

What you have to remember is that when you hear the word “purgatory,” you hear a very strictly defined dogma laid out very carefully over centuries of church history.

When most Protestants hear the word “purgatory,” we hear Dante’s Purgatorio. I can’t stress this enough: We really think that you really believe in a mountain with seven terraces and the whole nine yards.

I only found out that you believe otherwise when the whole subject of Limbo came up last year and that’s after watching lots of EWTN and reading through the CCC several times.

 

[pablope]

Basically the protestant objections to Purgatory all boil down to sola scriptura. We just don’t see it clearly in the Bible, so we don’t believe in it.

y much about preparing us for full communion with God in eternity.

From what I gather, the initial objection of the Reformers against purgatory is /was connected to the abuses and practices.

Overtime, over the succeeding generations, the original objection has morphed into total rejection of purgatory…because it is not in the Bible.

 

[bzkoss236]

What you have to remember is that when you hear the word “purgatory,” you hear a very strictly defined dogma laid out very carefully over centuries of church history.

When most Protestants hear the word “purgatory,” we hear Dante’s Purgatorio. I can’t stress this enough: We really think that you really believe in a mountain with seven terraces and the whole nine yards.

I only found out that you believe otherwise when the whole subject of Limbo came up last year and that’s after watching lots of EWTN and reading through the CCC several times.

Actually, purgatory isn’t that well laid out. All we know is:

1. There is a purification for those after death who are not yet fully “clean”, but are set to enter heaven
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. This purification can be aided by the prayers and offerings of the faithful

Most people’s (even Catholics) depictions of purgatory as a place or that time is involved is really just speculation. The idea of time I assume is from the fact that purgatory is temporary. But there isn’t really an indication I can find for purgatory being a place, which is why I try to make sure that I say ‘through purgatory’ instead of ‘in purgatory’ as to not confuse it as a place, since it is only speculative.

 

[benjohnson]

When most Protestants hear the word “purgatory,” we hear Dante’s Purgatorio. I can’t stress this enough: We really think that you really believe in a mountain with seven terraces and the whole nine yards.

I can vouch for that - when I hear the word ‘purgatory’, this is exactly the image I have in my mind.

 

[MJCamp]

Purification after death by fire is mentioned several places in scripture

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Actually, Theosis sounds a lot like purgatory.

No it doesn’t, because Theosis is a never ending process. There are similarities, of course. I mean, if you try hard enough you can compare anything with anything and say there are similarities. But a deeper understanding of what Theosis is and what Purgatory is, you will find that the essence of each is quite distinct and mutually exclusive.

 

[bzkoss236]

No it doesn’t, because Theosis is a never ending process. There are similarities, of course. I mean, if you try hard enough you can compare anything with anything and say there are similarities. But a deeper understanding of what Theosis is and what Purgatory is, you will find that the essence of each is quite distinct and mutually exclusive.

Some would say that suffering here on earth is purgatory on earth, meaning that the suffering we endure on earth can have the same purification benefits as purgatory after death. You hear from time to time about a saintly person who has just died “They suffered their purgatory in this life so as to not have to in the next”. This would seem to be a similar thing to what I’ve read about Theosis. A process of purification. It almost seems as if Theosis is just part of purgatory.

 

[Kay_Cee]

It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven.

God punished King David *after *He forgave him:

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David, "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by the deed, the child born to you must surely die." (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

This punishment occurred seven days after God forgave David. If “It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven,” why did God still punish David?

 

[Jon_S_1]

In short, what are the protestant objections to purgatory?

It seems pretty clear to me…

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor. 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 21:27[/BIBLEDRB]

(among other verses)

Virtually all protestants believe in Purgatory they just don’t call it that or realize the church teaching on Purgatory.

Simply ask them this,

“Do you believe that in heaven, there is no sin, no sadness, no pain, no anger…that you will be made holy and perfect and have no more sin or suffering?..Do you actually believe that!?”

When they say of course, simply let them know, that they believe in Purgatory, as all Purgatory is is the churches teaching on how this happens.

Reinforce we don’t know how long it takes…it may be instantaneous, heaven is outside of time.

Share the great protestant hero, CS Lewis’ quote:

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the ‘Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory’ as that Romish doctrine had then become…

The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘With its darkness to affront that light’. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

• C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

There are also a lot of other resources and statements from Popes that will make this doctrine much more palatable for them such as:

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

Pope Benedict XVI- Spe Salvi

 

[Ad_Crucem]

Virtually all protestants believe in Purgatory they just don’t call it that or realize the church teaching on Purgatory.

Simply ask them this,

“Do you believe that in heaven, there is no sin, no sadness, no pain, no anger…that you will be made holy and perfect and have no more sin or suffering?..Do you actually believe that!?”

When they say of course, simply let them know, that they believe in Purgatory, as all Purgatory is is the churches teaching on how this happens.

The objection to purgatory is not an objection to the fact that after death we will be cleansed of sin. On this, yes, every Christian agrees. What is objected to is the how and why we will be cleansed of sin.

Remove indulgences, Masses for the dead, the treasury of merit, et al. and yes, we would agree with “purgatory.” But then that wouldn’t be the Catholic doctrine anymore.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Actually, purgatory isn’t that well laid out. All we know is:

1. There is a purification for those after death who are not yet fully “clean”, but are set to enter heaven
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. This purification can be aided by the prayers and offerings of the faithful

Most people’s (even Catholics) depictions of purgatory as a place or that time is involved is really just speculation. The idea of time I assume is from the fact that purgatory is temporary. But there isn’t really an indication I can find for purgatory being a place, which is why I try to make sure that I say ‘through purgatory’ instead of ‘in purgatory’ as to not confuse it as a place, since it is only speculative.

Excellent point, this is the only three points of Purgatory that Catholics are required to believe, and I am sure most protestants would not see a problem with this. When they think of Purgatory, they think of a wide arrange of sensationalism and falsities that run the gamut of the imagination.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The objection to purgatory is not an objection to the fact that after death we will be cleansed of sin. On this, yes, every Christian agrees. What is objected to is the how and why we will be cleansed of sin.

Remove indulgences, Masses for the dead, the treasury of merit, et al. and yes, we would agree with “purgatory.” But then that wouldn’t be the Catholic doctrine anymore.

Of course there is much theological speculation and treatises on this issue, but at the end of the day, there are three things Catholics must believe about Purgatory. They are as follows:

1. There is a purification for those after death who are not yet fully “clean”, but are set to enter heaven
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. This purification can be aided by the prayers and offerings of the faithful

 

[SteveVH]

It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven.

Purgatory is not a punishment. It is a purification. The suffering one feels is the longing for heaven and contrition for having offended God. We believe that the souls in purgatory are even consoled by Jesus and Mary. The bottom line is that purgatory is the mercy of God, not a place where he can punish us for our sins.