Protestant Objections to Purgatory

[Isaiah45_9]

It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven.

Sin has consequences, forgiveness does not annul all ramifications of sin. God’s forgiveness saves us from hell. It does not give us immunity to the consequences of such sins. On the contrary, His forgiveness gives us the endurance to deal with the ramifications of our actions.

 

[MJCamp]

Purgatory is not a punishment. It is a purification. The suffering one feels is the longing for heaven and contrition for having offended God. We believe that the souls in purgatory are even consoled by Jesus and Mary. The bottom line is that purgatory is the mercy of God, not a place where he can punish us for our sins.

Thank God for his mercy. Many souls are saved this way

 

[SteveVH]

Thank God for his mercy. Many souls are saved this way

And unless I am martyred, I have little doubt that I will be paying a visit to purgatory as well.

 

[Jon_S_1]

And unless I am martyred, I have little doubt that I will be paying a visit to purgatory as well.

In today’s world I have a feeling martyrdom is going to become more likely sad to say.

 

[SteveVH]

In today’s world I have a feeling martyrdom is going to become more likely sad to say.

I agree completely.

 

[rfournier103]

Maybe now would be a good time to throw the words “REDEMPTION” AND “SALVATION” and what they mean into the mix?

Let’s also not forget the “restitution” aspect. Forgiveness and restitution are NOT the same, are they? Just as redemption and salvation are not the same?

 

[ltwin]

God punished King David *after *He forgave him:

Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David, "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by the deed, the child born to you must surely die." (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

This punishment occurred seven days after God forgave David. If “It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven,” why did God still punish David?

But would this not be a temporal consequence of sin. And it can be interpreted that the punishment was already set in motion the moment the child was conceived. The point being that even though God forgives us, we still suffer from the events that we set in motion by our own actions.

 

[ltwin]

There are also a lot of other resources and statements from Popes that will make this doctrine much more palatable for them such as:

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.

Pope Benedict XVI- Spe Salvi

To me, this sounds like the Christian life in the here and now. We all must pray through and die to self. “For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.” (Romans 8:22-25).

 

[ConstantineTG]

Purgatory is not a punishment. It is a purification. The suffering one feels is the longing for heaven and contrition for having offended God. We believe that the souls in purgatory are even consoled by Jesus and Mary. The bottom line is that purgatory is the mercy of God, not a place where he can punish us for our sins.

So you are saying that God inflicts pain?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sin has consequences, forgiveness does not annul all ramifications of sin. God’s forgiveness saves us from hell. It does not give us immunity to the consequences of such sins. On the contrary, His forgiveness gives us the endurance to deal with the ramifications of our actions.

Sin certainly has consequences, but purgatory is not that. See, you believe that those in purgatory are on their way to heaven. If so, why are they still paying for their sins if they are already judged to be on their way to heaven? And why are they made to suffer for it?

 

[bzkoss236]

So you are saying that God inflicts pain?

I would say the pain comes from themselves from not being in a perfect union with God. Or that because of their imperfect union with God, His presence would feel akin to pain.

For all we know, it could be from the mere absolute presence of God that sears away our imperfections on our way into heaven.

 

[Kay_Cee]

But would this not be a temporal consequence of sin. And it can be interpreted that the punishment was already set in motion the moment the child was conceived. The point being that even though God forgives us, we still suffer from the events that we set in motion by our own actions.

And the Catholic response is that Purgatory is also a temporal consequence of sin. Do we not make ourselves impure by our sin? Must we not be entirely pure to enter heaven?

And if “it can be interpreted that the punishment was already set in motion the moment the child was conceived,” please quote some scripture to back up this interpretation. Otherwise, I will have to consider it speculation.

 

[ltwin]

And the Catholic response is that Purgatory is also a temporal consequence of sin. Do we not make ourselves impure by our sin? Must we not be entirely pure to enter heaven?

And if “it can be interpreted that the punishment was already set in motion the moment the child was conceived,” please quote some scripture to back up this interpretation. Otherwise, I will have to consider it speculation.

You may gladly do so. I’ll do the same when it comes to interpretations used to prove purgatory.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Sin certainly has consequences, but purgatory is not that. See, you believe that those in purgatory are on their way to heaven. If so, why are they still paying for their sins if they are already judged to be on their way to heaven? And why are they made to suffer for it?

Where did I say pay? Purgatory is a cleansing process:

From the CCC

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[SteveVH]

So you are saying that God inflicts pain?

This is what I said:

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Purgatory is not a punishment. It is a purification. The suffering one feels is the longing for heaven and contrition for having offended God. We believe that the souls in purgatory are even consoled by Jesus and Mary. The bottom line is that purgatory is the mercy of God, not a place where he can punish us for our sins.

Does a loved one inflict pain upon me because I miss them and want to be with them? No. Does a loved one inflict pain because I have wronged them and feel sorry for doing so? No. The pain is my own pain and when I finally realize how much I have offended God by my actions that pain will be like a fire. We believe that those entering purgatory have first glimpsed heaven. That experience causes a longing for our true home and we experience the pain of that longing. So no, God does not inflict pain. We do that all by ourselves, and justifiably so.

 

[Kay_Cee]

You may gladly do so. I’ll do the same when it comes to interpretations used to prove purgatory.

Excuse me, but I hadn’t even gotten to claims about Purgatory. I was commenting on Constantine TG’s post (#6), in which he claimed “It does not make sense for people to suffer for something God already has forgiven.”

Please stick to commenting on the point I was actually making.

 

[Ad_Crucem]

Of course there is much theological speculation and treatises on this issue, but at the end of the day, there are three things Catholics must believe about Purgatory. They are as follows:

1. There is a purification for those after death who are not yet fully “clean”, but are set to enter heaven
2. This purification involves some kind of suffering
3. This purification can be aided by the prayers and offerings of the faithful

You’re also required to believe everything that I referenced in the previous post, in addition to what you post here. Of the three you post above, the only one that most Protestants would accept is #1. #3 relies on concepts such as indulgences, Masses for the dead, etc. which all Protestants reject, and the Orthodox reject if understood to be in relation to the Catholic purgatorial concept.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You’re also required to believe everything that I referenced in the previous post, in addition to what you post here. Of the three you post above, the only one that most Protestants would accept is #1. #3 relies on concepts such as indulgences, Masses for the dead, etc. which all Protestants reject, and the Orthodox reject if understood to be in relation to the Catholic purgatorial concept.

When fishing…you don’t dump tons of bait into the sea…you present something smaller the fish will accept. Once accepted you can work on reeling them in all the way.

 

[Steveabrous]

You’re also required to believe everything that I referenced in the previous post, in addition to what you post here. Of the three you post above, the only one that most Protestants would accept is #1. #3 relies on concepts such as indulgences, Masses for the dead, etc. which all Protestants reject, and the Orthodox reject if understood to be in relation to the Catholic purgatorial concept.

I love when non-Catholicss tell us what we are required to believe. They are always wrong.

 

[Ad_Crucem]

I love when non-Catholicss tell us what we are required to believe. They are always wrong.

Really? So Catholics are not required to believe the dogma of indulgences as spelled out by the 25th session of the Council of Trent (which also addressed the treasury of merit) or by Pope Paul VI in the bull Indulgentiarum doctrina? Catholics are not required to accept the validity of Requiem Masses?