Protestant Patrick?

[dcmac]

Dia dhuit (God be with you),

The wearing of the green is more than a mere political statement. Green was adopted as the color of the oppressed Catholic majority by several 17th, 18th and 19th century Irish Catholic societies precisely because “the wearen’ o’ the green,” along with other native Irish and Catholic cultural symbolism, was prohibited by the British Monarchy as a means of persecuting them both politically and spiritually.

It is therefore all the more ironic that the Church of Ireland (Anglicans) and the Dissenting Church (Presbyterians), as well as some of the Welleslyean (sp?) churches try to usurp many of the Irish saints by patronizing their churches with their names. It is historically inaccurate and spiritually bankrupt for any Protestant Church in Ireland to be named ‘St. Patrick’s,’ ‘St. Kevin’s,’ ‘St. Brigid’s,’ St. Columbanus,’ St. Brendan’s,’ etc. Yet they are there in abundance. How queer it is to do everything in the world possible to destroy a people, their church, and their culture, only to adopt it a few generations later and pretend that it is a natural, true fit. It is one of the great shames and farces of Protestantism in Ireland and continues unto today.

The next blight of the Protestant state of Ireland is Orangeism. The Orange Order is a wicked, evil satanic society. This is a society built solely for the purpose of oppression of a native and Catholic people. Their own preamble attests to this. Their history and modern day activities gives great witness to their wickedness. Even right, honest minded Protestants shun the Orangism of Protestant Ireland.

Yet, in light of this I guess it is rather no surprise that any ignorant person would cling to wearing of the “orange” on this most holy feast of the Catholic Apostle of Ireland Naomh Pádraig (Beannacht De lena anam – God rest his soul).

Slán,

Dochtúir Donnchadh Críostóir Dónal
ó Meiscil mag Eochadha,
‘an t-Aithríoch’
na Chlann Eochaidha Óg,
Psy.D.
A.O.H., KofC, StJCK
Uachtaran
Ársa Ord Éireannach i Meiriceá
Roinnt 1 an tAthar ó Corragáin
An Mullán, Colorado

Is fán dilis don chreaidh!
(Remain loyal to the Faith!)

Tá mo fhuil uasal!
Personal Motto

‘Ar son altóir, cine agus tintéan!’
‘For our altars, race & hearth (homes)!’
Clan War Cry

 

[Maccabees]

good point dcmac

Besides what is the point here its not protestants believe catholic saints play any role in heaven interceding for us.
They tell me they don’t have any use.
Logically if they beleive catholic saints are useless they should refrain from connecting to a person they deem dead. Isn’t that necormancy anyway? Protestants ironically practice necromancy when they call to catholic saints in anyway as they beleive they are dead. WE believe they are more alive than we are interceding as spiritually alive saints seeing God face to face praying to us.

Even if a protestant rightfully respects Saint Patrick to name a protestant church after him is a bit weird. This is akin to catholics naming a church Saint Martin Luther? Makes no sense.

 

[The_Black_Knight]

ByzCath:

Green is Catholic, orange is Protestant.

Isn’t it green is Muslim, red is Catholic?

 

[Maccabees]

Since Catholic is universal. All colors are catholic.
Different regions garner different color themes for their likings.
But I don’t think the catholic church as in the universal sense has identified any one color as its color.

 

[_Joshua]

As someone has already suggested, how could Patrick have been a protestant, when the great revolt hadn’t happened.
My mother used to tell me that protestants claimed he was a protestant, but when Catholic’s claimed him as one of their own they soon gave him up.
Anyway, been born and reared in this bigotted society, green over here is usually the mark of being Catholic & nationalist,although some nationalists don’t go to Mass.
For some wearing green is an act of defiance, yes the British burned down our Churches, burned our Bibles, and murdered our Priests.
They sent that tyrant, Oliver Cromwell over here to do it, but the people celebrated Mass regardless.
The priests were driven underground, and that is why we have so many Mass rocks all over Ireland, tables of stone quickly set-up for Mass.
It has been said that Oliver Cromwell, when reporting back to the Crown as to why the Irish wern’t defeated yet, he said, " I would have defeated them, if I could take that Rosary from their hands".
For some over here, wearing green is nothing more than a political statement.
The Irish Tricolour actually symbolizes peace between the orange and green.
I’m amazed how many countries celebrate St,Patricks day, and it’s nice to see.
Maybe it’s because Ireland helped to evangilize a good part of the world for such a small country, trouble is, Ireland needs re-evangilizing now, I read somewhere that Patrick was promised by God that the Irish would not lose their faith.
Anyway it’s nice to see, a sea of green on St,Paddy’s day. :tiphat:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1648/iomha/logo.gif

 

[azcelt]

i believe you st.patrick and celtic saint experts are off the mark,there was definitely a celtic church,neither protestant nor catholic(as it was practiced in rome)it was monastic in nature,didn,t take it,s orders from rome,the abbott of a local monastery had more power than bishops,they looked to st.john as there leader more so than st.peter,they had no concept of augustines original sin theology,they believed that all creation was good,there was no such thing as secular,everything is sacred,they had a different date for easter than the catholic church,the faith was sent to the british isles by roman soldiers,when they left britain the church was on it,s own for over 400 yrs,this is why the celtic churches were distinct from roman customs,by the way women also held much more power and positions of authority in the celtic churches.pope gregory stirred by the site of celtic slaves in rome sent his chief lieutenant to evangelize the british isles,to there surprise they found a flourishing christian church,the differences were so profound between the churches that the synod of whitby was called bt rome to bring the celtic church to conformity with roman catholic practises.this was officially the end of the celtic church as the dominant church of the celtic lands,the synod was in 664,but celtic christian beliefs have never totally dissapeared and are making a comeback in many christian circles. in christ,celt

 

[Maccabees]

azcelt stop drinking the histroy redux cool-aid.
Patick by his own accounts in the Confetior preached orthodox catholcism and was sent by the Bishop of ROme to do it.
THe catholcism prior to Patrick was in decline as the native celtic religions was the more dominant religion. The catholcism brought to Ireland by the Romans was Orthodox as well after the fall of the Empire it may have been more murkerier in its Orthodoxy as its lost contact with Rome. But there is no evidence that the Catholcism that Patrick brought to Ireland was not Orthodox.
He put some celtic touches to the faith such as the celtic cross, the bonnfires etc. But catholcism has always adapted regional traditions to the faith thus being the only universal church in the world. But the sacracmetns, the trilogy etc were all Orthodox as per the new evangelization of Patrick and his followers. The burdern of proof would be those who contradict the written evidence we have. THis history of a sepearate Celtic church was popular among new agers and those of the Anglican church seeking to degrade Irish Catholics. Not very reliable sources if you ask me.

 

[dcmac]

Dia dhuit mo deartháir (God be with you my brother) azcelt,

You rehash much dribble. Most of which is fraught with error and found on a number of “Celtic Orthodox” and other such websites.

It is intellectually weak at best, and dishonest at worst, to assert that there was a “Celtic Church” Rather there were some common Celtic elements within the Christianity of a geographical grouping encompassing modern day Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, the Western Isles, as well Northern England and other monastic sites on the continent. There was no unifying liturgical life, no unifying disciplinary life, no unifying prayer life, etc. What there was were certain characteristics that can honestly described as Celtic in nature, or more precisely, Irish. However, there was no unifying of any of the elements that would characterize a Church.

Further, the monastic nature of the Church in Ireland came a century and a half to two centuries AFTER Naomh Padráig, not as a result of his missionary work. To be more specific Padráig boasts of establishing priests, sees, and holy virgins for the Lord. We know with reasonable certainty that Padráig obtained his priestly formation at the hands of St. Germanus at Auxerre, France – a Roman Catholic, not a Mediterranean, or Orthodox Christian. However, there is also some credible historical evidence that Padráig had been influenced by Mediterranean monasticism on the Isle of Lérins off the French coast as well. We know that he did harbor a great love and respect for the Monastic life. Indeed he did establish the basis of monasticism in Ireland. However, he left Christian Ireland both Parochial (episcopal) in administration and Roman in practice, which he observed all around him in Roman Britain and Gaul.

** continued on next post**

 

[dcmac]

** continued from previous psot**

Here are some basic historical facts for you:

1. Padráig is half Roman and half Welsh, the son of a Roman administrator who was also a deacon of the Roman Church, the grandson of a Roman priest, and the son of a Welsh noble woman who was also Roman Catholic.
2. Padráig was a captive slave in Ireland where he became a true believer, whereas before he was not despite the efforts of the priests of his youth.
3. Padráig escaped Ireland and returned to his home in Roman Britain where he had visions of angels and in particular one with Victoricus where he read the letter that showed him his vocation to the priesthood.
4. Padráig studied for the priesthood in Auxerre, France at the hands of St. Germanus – both Roman in administration and character.
5. Padráig was ordained a priest and then a bishop and was sent to Ireland by Papal commission – a Roman Church practice.
6. Padráig ‘baptized thousands,’ ‘ordained clerics everywhere,’ ‘gave presents to kings,’ ‘was put in irons,’ ‘lived in daily expectation of murder, treachery, or captivity,’ ‘journeyed everywhere in many dangers, even to the farthest regions where there lived nobody’ and rejoiced to see ‘the flock of the Lord in Ireland growing splendidly with the greatest care and the sons and daughters of kings becoming monks and virgins of Christ.’
7. Padráig’s missionary work was done north of a line from Galway to Wexford.
8. Padráig established a parochial, or episcopal, church in Ireland that was based off of the Roman Church of Britain and Gaul from where he was educated.
9. The laws of a synod (an episcopal practice) held before he died assume the existence of bishops with fixed sees, each exercising jurisdiction within its own boundaries.
10. Even though Padráig established a monastic life in Ireland it did not approach the power of the episcopal church until a century and a half to two centuries after his death where the abbots were both abbots and bishops of sees and monasteries and it wasn’t until a further two centuries after this that the abbots were pre-eminent without being bishops as well, however maintaining ordained bishops who lived within their communities for the purpose of sacramental administration.
11. This fact leaves a very short period of time when the monastic dominance (not cooperation, as before when they wer both bishop and abbot) of the Church existed from roughly ca. 800 A.D. at the earliest to ca. 861 A.D at the latest to the national synod of Ráith Bresail in 1111 A.D. Which was before the Anglo-Norman conquest and domination of Ireland, so in truth this reforming or correcting synod took place at the behest of Irish Catholics before an foreign influence. To my calculations that is a mere 311 years at the most to 250 years at the least where the abbot was the supreme head of the Church in Ireland. And in truth there were other reforming local synods that took place before this, so the duration of the dominance of the Monastic church in Ireland was even less.
12. Padráig was a Roman Catholic bishop appointed by the Roman Catholic bishop of Rome to server the Roman Catholics of Ireland and evangelize the Pagans of Ireland to become Roman Catholics whereby he established an episcopal church. Padráig was not a “Celtic Church” prelate, nor an Orthodox one, nor a Protestant one. He was a Roman Catholic one.

As for some of the other minor elements of Celtic Christianity that were at odds with the Roman ones those that were of more pressing importance were brought in line with Rome and those elements that weren’t so serious were left to their own devices. The “Easter Controversy” is not much to quibble over, frankly. Only the more “anal” amongst us make it more than it was.

The Irish devotion to the Evangelist St. John is a complex one. However, boiled down it is because the Irish are in temperament a “Mediterranean People” as opposed to a north European people. That is they are attracted to John for the very reason that the Gospel of St. John is the more intimate of the Gospels and is very, very Eucharistic. Indeed it is no wonder why the Irish continue to have a devotion to St. John and certainly no wonder as to why the beloved saint was present alongside St. Joseph and the BVM at the apparition of Knock. To try and subvert the Roman Catholic nature of the Irish Catholics by pitting Sts. John and Peter against each other was infantile at best.

** continued on next post **

 

[dcmac]

** continued from above post **

Now, given that the icon you chose to use was the winking eye one, one has to wonder as to whether you are speaking tongue in cheek, or are you serious? I do not know you, however given your Anglican background I would think you believe it at some level.

So, I ask you, do you honestly think that Naomh Padráig was the founder of a “Celtic Church?” How about the founder of the Church of Ireland? Or the Dissenting Church (Presbyterian Church)?

You see a close look at the historical facts of Padráig and the Church he left was not the same church of ca. 800 A.D. or ca. 811 A.D. to 1111 A.D. Did he bestow on the Irish a church complete with some form of monasticism? Yes. Was that monasticism equal to the episcopal? No. Was that monasticism dominant over the episcopal? No. That was a corruption that came about over a protracted period of time.

What many Anglican Church of Ireland, Presbyterian Church of Scotland and “Celtic Church” wannabes are trying to do is create something that was never there and ascribe to it a historical reality that it never can honestly have. I think that one of the reasons they do so is that they blur the distinction between Celtic nature of the Irish/Scottish faithful and their own rebellious nature. It is a weird marriage indeed, but one that has been enjoyed by the Scots and forced upon the Irish for some time now.

Is there room in the Catholic Church in Ireland, and for the Irish Catholic elsewhere, for Celtic traditions/mysticism/etc.? I say yes. But, that is not the same as a “Celtic Church” whether it is in the past or the present.

Irish Catholicism is both Roman and Celtic – Roman in its administration, history and communion and Celtic in its mysticism, culture, asceticism, and familial/personal practice.

Slán,

Donnchadh
By the Grace of God a future Catholic priest

 

[_Joshua]

1) Padráig is half Roman and half Welsh, the son of a Roman administrator who was also a deacon of the Roman Church, the grandson of a Roman priest, and the son of a Welsh noble woman who was also Roman Catholic.

Thanks, that is what I was taught at primary school at the age of 5,---------41 years ago, (that Patrick was Welsh)
Then I saw on a reputable sorce that he was Scottish,
yeh, maybe he’s like Heinz beans, 57 different varieties !

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

dcmac:

Dia dhuit mo deartháir (God be with you my brother) azcelt,

You rehash much dribble. Most of which is fraught with error and found on a number of “Celtic Orthodox” and other such websites.

Just a note. The Celtic Orthodox sites you are referring to are fringe groups of an autogenic origin which have no connection with genuine Orthodoxy. I am Orthodox and I noticed some inaccuracies in that post myself. What you have written below is more accurate. Please do not underestimate the strength of normal Orthodox scholarship and please don’t think that vagante groups who use either “Orthodox” or "Catholic’ in their names are either one or the other.

If you would like to see how the Orthodox approach “Celtic” Christianity, there is a Yahoo e-mail group
groups.yahoo.com/group/celticorthodoxy/
Drop in, contribute your knowledge. We need you.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

12) Padráig was a Roman Catholic bishop appointed by the Roman Catholic bishop of Rome to server the Roman Catholics of Ireland and evangelize the Pagans of Ireland to become Roman Catholics whereby he established an episcopal church. Padráig was not a “Celtic Church” prelate, nor an Orthodox one, nor a Protestant one. He was a Roman Catholic one.

It is anachronistic to keep hitting on the words “Roman Catholic” unless you mean by the phrase that part of the Church which came under the jurisdiction of of the Church of Rome. But to use it in its modern meaning is not applicable to the 5th century Church.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

dcmac:

The “Easter Controversy” is not much to quibble over, frankly. Only the more “anal” amongst us make it more than it was.

The Easter controversy was important because the Council of Nicea had wanted the universal Church to be unified in its date of celebrating the greatest Feast of Christianity, the Resurrection of the Saviour.

It was NOT, as so many think today, a matter of the Church in Northumbria being compelled to Roman authority. It was a matter of the Roman Church insisting that the Church in Northumbria come into line, not with Roman demands, but with the computation decided at Nicea.

Anyway, all the south of Ireland and much of the north had voluntarily adopted the Nicene Easter about 20 years before the Witan held at Whitby.

Nicea saw a common Easter as very important as a visible symbol of the unity of the Church. I don’t think any record has survived as to how many of the bishops at the Ecumenical Council at Nicea were “anal.”

 

[cursillo255]

Sechnall of Ireland

“Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).

 

[azcelt]

hold on to your barnacles!seems some folks is gettin a wee bit testy around here.would you consider celtic christianity a branch of the catholic church then?if they were just like the established catholic church of the times seems someone forgot to tell em!for there practises were not as orthodox as the main catholic churches.i would certainly not claim st.patrick or his church was anglican!by the way my heritage is more lutheran than anglican,i prefer to call myself an ecumenical traditional christian who loves all his bros and sisters in christ.I honestly don,t care if st. patrick was catholic,celtic,etc.i know that he was a great christian role model who should be honored for his courage,tenacity,in bringing the faith to ireland.god bless all here,celt

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr Ambrose:

It is anachronistic to keep hitting on the words “Roman Catholic” unless you mean by the phrase that part of the Church which came under the jurisdiction of of the Church of Rome. But to use it in its modern meaning is not applicable to the 5th century Church.

It is also incorrect to state there was never any Celtic Catholic Church but that hasn’t seemed to stop some here.

 

[dcmac]

Dia dhuit Iósua (Joshua),

Indeed the “Scotland” connection did gain some ground in the 1970’s and 80’s. However, given that the Romans were never able to colonize Caledonia, a.k.a. Alba (Scotland), and that they were able to Wales and Cornwall and given that his father was a Roman administrator and Roman citizen and Roman Deacon most of the scholars now disregard the “Scotland” connection. Add to this the “traditions” ascribed to Padráig (admittedly in writings several centuries after the saint was dead, but certainly closer to the saints day than today’s historian) we can confidently say that he was half Roman and half Welsh by blood.

Donnchadh

 

[dcmac]

Athair Ambróis,

I did not connect the “Celtic Church/Orthodox Celtic Church” group with real Orthodoxy. I have a sincere respect for true Orthodoxy. If you got the impression that I was comparing the two I am sorry, for that was not my intent. These “Celtic Church” people who are trying to reinvent themselves as Celtic Orthodox are sad. It is a blemish on the Orthodox, the Catholics and the Celtic peoples (large grouping that they all seem to fail to realize mind you). Again, for those reading and lurking, there never was a “Celtic Church” as such. There was a Catholic Church that was administratively Roman, in communion with Rome, was peppered with Celtic customs and traditions, and in some cases abuses. But, never a “Celtic Church.” To assert that there ever was one is to assert a false history of the Church in Ireland. As an Orthodox priest I am sure you get just as frustrated by these “Celtic Church” types… especially when they try to reinvent themselves under the guise of Orthodoxy. It would all be very funny if it weren’t so sad and pathetic.

I appreciate the invite, however I was once a part of that email group. I connected to it via a British Orthodox website. I removed myself due to… less than desirable “scholarship” on the part of a very vocal few. I hope it has changed. However, I am not only Irish, but also a Colorado Cowboy and sort of live by the motto of, “fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice, shame on me.” I might drop in and see how things are going, but what I witnessed for a few months the last time I was in there… well we’ll leave it at that. Good luck with it either way.

I am intentionally referring to the Roman Church, for it was the Roman Church that surrounded Padráig in Roman Britain and Roman Gaul, which is where he was raised and trained in Holy Orders. I use it intentionally here to remind the “Celtic Church” crowd that the Church in Ireland was in fact the Roman Church, which had and still has many Celtic customs, but is still Roman. Respectfully, I take issue with it not being applicable with the 5th century Church. But, that is a wonderful possibility for another discussion thread… you should start it… I’d love to participate in it Athair Ambróis.

Your comments on the “Easter Controversy” are very good. Frankly I have to admit that I would personally prefer that the Roman practice would be in line with the East. However, it is not that big of a deal to me. For some, however it seems to be a very serious issue… which I simply can not wrap my mind around as to why. This is also a wonderful possibility for another thread.

Donnchadh

 

[_Joshua]

dcmac:

Dia dhuit Iósua (Joshua),

Indeed the “Scotland” connection did gain some ground in the 1970’s and 80’s. However, given that the Romans were never able to colonize Caledonia, a.k.a. Alba (Scotland), and that they were able to Wales and Cornwall and given that his father was a Roman administrator and Roman citizen and Roman Deacon most of the scholars now disregard the “Scotland” connection. Add to this the “traditions” ascribed to Padráig (admittedly in writings several centuries after the saint was dead, but certainly closer to the saints day than today’s historian) we can confidently say that he was half Roman and half Welsh by blood.

Donnchadh

Thanks for the info, as I said, Paddy was always known to be from Wales.
Cheers :thumbsup: