Protestant Pickle

[abcd]

Is it biblical that this place no longer exist?

Its not biblical that purgatory ever existed,
Purgatory is an afront against Christ because it says that Christ sacrifice for sins was not enough. A true Christian could never pay for his own sins. All sins were forgiven when one is justifed by Grace through faith.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks

Is there anyway I can articulate this argument alittle better? or should I just concetrate on other passages?

I think you could use this passage (and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) to demonstrate that the Early Church, together with Jesus, recognized “third states” in the afterlife, apart from Heaven and Hell.

Purgatory itself isn’t really discussed very much in the Scriptures, and the references to it are obscure enough that most Protestants wouldn’t be convinced of its existence just from those passages.

We Catholics believe in Purgatory because the Holy Tradition affirms it; not because of anything in the Bible.

 

[jmcrae]

Its not biblical that purgatory ever existed,
Purgatory is an afront against Christ because it says that Christ sacrifice for sins was not enough. A true Christian could never pay for his own sins. All sins were forgiven when one is justifed by Grace through faith.

Purgatory is not a place where people can repent of or “pay for” their sins; it is a place where we are healed of the wounds of sin.

By way of example, imagine a fence post.

Now imagine that every time you sin, you pound a nail into the fence post.

When Jesus forgives you, He pulls the nails out of the fence post, but the holes remain. (We still have to live with the consequences of our sins, in this life.)

When you go to Purgatory, Jesus fills in the holes that were left by the nails in the fence post, until you can’t even tell that there were ever any holes in it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Its not biblical that purgatory ever existed,
Purgatory is an afront against Christ because it says that Christ sacrifice for sins was not enough. A true Christian could never pay for his own sins. All sins were forgiven when one is justifed by Grace through faith.

No it isn’t. Purgatory is part of God’s mercy it is not oppose to it.

I would also like to quote another Scripture passage that show you that there is a indeed a third place.

The Letter of Paul to the Philippians Chapter 2 verse 5 to 10

Have this mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking a form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men. And becing found in human form he humble himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the cross. Therefore God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Under the earth is a third place. It isn’t hell. It’s purgatory…

 

[Sabda]

Its not biblical that purgatory ever existed,
Purgatory is an afront against Christ because it says that Christ sacrifice for sins was not enough. A true Christian could never pay for his own sins. All sins were forgiven when one is justifed by Grace through faith.

It is in Purgatory that we are shown just how truly merciful God is. God does not want to lose any of us. Yet, we are all sinful human beings or are you going to deny that? If “nothing unclean can enter heaven” and sin makes us unclean than how do we become clean so that we may enter heaven?

One passage I have found that really does a great job of showing Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:10-15

According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it,
for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.
If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. **It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. **If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

One question, what is the wage that the person earned? I believe that wage is heaven.

The Greek word used here for fire is pur. Pur does mean fire but it also, in many instances in the New Testament, refers to the holiness of God. The fire which will test our works is the holiness of God. That which is not holy is burned up. What happens to something when it gets burned? It ends up being destroyed. In other words this passage is talking about the person being purified. This is exactly what Purgatory is. Purgatory is a place of purification. That which is not holy in you is destroyed so that only that which is holy is left. In Purgatory you are saved but you are not pure/clean enough for heaven. So God’s holiness cleanses you in Purgatory so that you are clean/pure enough to go to heaven.

Here is what the Catechism officially says about Purgatory:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Footnotes:

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39: PL 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

 

[Jolly_Joe]

When we confess our faith in the Nicene Creed, which I believe the Roman Catholic Church accepts, it says, Jesus decended into hell. So this is what we mean when we say hell. Hell is a temporary place because unbelievers will eventually be cast with Satan and the Beast into the eternal Lake of Fire. There are indeed two different places.

We have no reason to believe in his descent into hell that Jesus preached to the righteous saints awaiting heaven. For we see that the people that are specifically mentioned are those during Noah’s time. That would be the people so evil that God determined to destroy all, but saved Noah and his family for only they had faith. Unless you are a universalist, I can’t imagine how you would think such people were eventually saved.

Now the story of Lazarus would seem to indicate that there was a temporary place called Abraham’s bosom for those who are saved before they go to heaven. We do see that in the story of Lazarus though that the place in the story is a nice place. Lazarus had suffered on earth but he suffered no more. The rich man suffered, and there was no way to get from one side to the other. There really is nothing in the story indicating the rich man was simply being purified before going to heaven. So if this is about purgatory, it is certainly nothing to fear for Lazarus was with Abraham, no reason to believe Abraham was still being purified… There is no indication of any sort of purification through suffering whether for Lazarus nor for the rich man…

The idea of purgatory really seems to have it’s roots in Middle East mysticism and grown through the Monanists and them come to fruition in the whole penance system that was built up to support the churches and especially Rome.

It’s too bad instead of comforting people the church chose to sell grace for cash. Acts 8:20.

JJ

 

[jmcrae]

The idea of purgatory really seems to have it’s roots in Middle East mysticism and grown through the Monanists and them come to fruition in the whole penance system that was built up to support the churches and especially Rome.

It’s too bad instead of comforting people the church chose to sell grace for cash. Acts 8:20.

JJ

What on earth are you babbling about? Sorry, but my patience is stretched very thin at the moment - instead of hinting and dodging, please just state what’s on your mind in plain language.

 

[abcd]

It is in Purgatory that we are shown just how truly merciful God is. God does not want to lose any of us. Yet, we are all sinful human beings or are you going to deny that? If “nothing unclean can enter heaven” and sin makes us unclean than how do we become clean so that we may enter heaven?

One passage I have found that really does a great job of showing Purgatory is 1 Cor 3:10-15

One question, what is the wage that the person earned? I believe that wage is heaven.

The Greek word used here for fire is pur. Pur does mean fire but it also, in many instances in the New Testament, refers to the holiness of God. The fire which will test our works is the holiness of God. That which is not holy is burned up. What happens to something when it gets burned? It ends up being destroyed. In other words this passage is talking about the person being purified. This is exactly what Purgatory is. Purgatory is a place of purification. That which is not holy in you is destroyed so that only that which is holy is left. In Purgatory you are saved but you are not pure/clean enough for heaven. So God’s holiness cleanses you in Purgatory so that you are clean/pure enough to go to heaven.

Here is what the Catechism officially says about Purgatory:

You ask: “How do we become unclean”?

There is only one way and that is what Christ did when He shed His blood on the cross. All your suffering, good works, sacrements, purgatory, etc will not cleanse you. And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

To deny the blood of Christ is sufficient to save to the uttermost is to deny christ.

Works will be burned up because works do not save but this has nothing to do with purgatory.

Bill

 

[maurin]

You ask: “How do we become unclean”?

There is only one way and that is what Christ did when He shed His blood on the cross. All your suffering, good works, sacrements, purgatory, etc will not cleanse you. And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

To deny the blood of Christ is sufficient to save to the uttermost is to deny christ.

Works will be burned up because works do not save but this has nothing to do with purgatory.

Bill

That’s right Bill!!! Scripture NEVER speaks of our cooperation being necessary to complete Christ’s Mission. Not even once. Well ok, just once. Well, actually, that’s pretty much what Scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation. Ok, I take it back. I think you’re mistaken.

Colossians 1:24-29.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentils; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory. It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

 

[abcd]

That’s right Bill!!! Scripture NEVER speaks of our cooperation being necessary to complete Christ’s Mission. Not even once. Well ok, just once. Well, actually, that’s pretty much what Scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation. Ok, I take it back. I think you’re mistaken.

Colossians 1:24-29.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church, of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, the mystery hidden from ages and generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones, to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentils; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory. It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, Colossians 1:24-29. in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

Here Paul is talking to Christians, those that have already been bought by the blood of Christ and “it is finished”. Paul was not talking about finishing the work of salvation. The rest of the verse tell you what he was talking about. and that was-to bring the believers to maturity by teaching them. It is a streach to say Paul meant to complete salvation for them. This was done on the cross.

Bill

 

[erbo]

And even then you are only clean in the sight of God because of Jesus. Christ righteousness in imputed to you and you are found innocent. Like an earthly judge and jury finds someone innocent even though they are guilty.

This is the key of Catholic disagreement with Protestants. While you might believe that we are “declared” righteous (imputed), Catholics believe this to be unbiblical, and inconsistent to the type of relationship God wants to have with us. We are actually progressively sanctified and infused with the Grace of God; we are actually made clean, and not “covered up” or “declared” clean.

If we are really infused with Grace, then there is a logical necessity for a place like Purgatory, because a soul can be in several states. If you have enough Grace, you will go straight to heaven. If you have some Grace and some stain of sin, you need to be “purged” of that sin, but you will be saved. If you have no grace, you will burn eternally.

If you are imputed to be righteous, then your soul can only have two states: imputed/saved, and not imputed/unsaved. Purgatory cannot exist in such a setting, since it is either or. So to understand Purgatory, you must first understand the type of relationship God wants to have with man, and how we are infused with grace.

Peace be with you!

-Eric

 

[maurin]

Here Paul is talking to Christians, those that have already been bought by the blood of Christ and “it is finished”. Paul was not talking about finishing the work of salvation. The rest of the verse tell you what he was talking about. and that was-to bring the believers to maturity by teaching them. It is a streach to say Paul meant to complete salvation for them. This was done on the cross.

Bill

Sure, Bill. You’re absolutely right!!! NOWHERE in Scripture does it even HINT that our cooperation is necessary in order to bring to fruition Christ’s Mission. Ok, maybe once. But JUST once. Well, maybe a few more times than that. Come to think of it, you are mistaken:

Baptism, eating His Body and Blood, Salvation by Grace, faith AND works, etc.

John 3: Truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

John 6: Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

James 2: See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Here Paul is talking to Christians, those that have already been bought by the blood of Christ and “it is finished”. Paul was not talking about finishing the work of salvation. The rest of the verse tell you what he was talking about. and that was-to bring the believers to maturity by teaching them. It is a streach to say Paul meant to complete salvation for them. This was done on the cross.

Bill

From *The Salvation Controversy *by James Akin:

“A Catholic using language to the effect of doing more than what is required for his salvation would not be referring to his *eternal *salvation, since Christ did all that was needed, and the minute one is justified, one is given eternal life. He would be referring, rather, to temporal salvation, or removal of the temporal barriers between himself and final entrance into glory.”

We know from the Bible that nothing impure shall enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). Well, here on earth one can be saved, yet still be impure (unless you want to argue that you don’t sin or that Jesus hasn’t saved you yet).

So, if one can be impure yet saved, how does one enter heaven? The impure must be purified. How does this happen? Does death itself accomplish this? If it did, then it would be something we do (the act of dying).

No, it’s something Christ does: He applies the finished work of salvation to us after our deaths, making us pure. That’s what purgatory is, a state in which we’re purged of impurities.

Frankly, I’ve never understood imputed righteousness. If our sins are merely covered, like a dung hill with snow (to use Luther’s image), doesn’t that mean the dung hill would enter heaven? Doesn’t that mean sin would enter heaven? Yet nothing impure can enter heaven! Obviously if you have a purity (like heaven) and introduce an impurity into it, you have defiled the purity of the place.

 

[abcd]

This is the key of Catholic disagreement with Protestants. While you might believe that we are “declared” righteous (imputed), Catholics believe this to be unbiblical, and inconsistent to the type of relationship God wants to have with us. We are actually progressively sanctified and infused with the Grace of God; we are actually made clean, and not “covered up” or “declared” clean.

If we are really infused with Grace, then there is a logical necessity for a place like Purgatory, because a soul can be in several states. If you have enough Grace, you will go straight to heaven. If you have some Grace and some stain of sin, you need to be “purged” of that sin, but you will be saved. If you have no grace, you will burn eternally.

If you are imputed to be righteous, then your soul can only have two states: imputed/saved, and not imputed/unsaved. Purgatory cannot exist in such a setting, since it is either or. So to understand Purgatory, you must first understand the type of relationship God wants to have with man, and how we are infused with grace.

Peace be with you!

-Eric

Eric,

If your are infused with righteousness then you are a perfect man.
Imputation is in the new testiment many times. You still live in a sinful body. You sin every day to one degree or another unless you are perfect. Are you? I know thats why you have to go to purgatory. Even the Pope goes. God knew we can not be perfect enough to go to heaven so Christs righteousness is imputed to us. If you believe in purgatory you void the sacrifice of Christ. I fear that those who try to get in another way are in Big trouble.

• Easton Bible Dictionary

To impute means to credit or reckon or count something to one’s account. It is distinct from impartation and infusion. The Greek verb for imputation, logizomai ([Strong’s #3049]) is used more than 40 times in the New Testament, ten times in Romans chapter 4 – sometimes called the imputation chapter. In the KJV, logizomai is translated ‘counted’ in 4:3,5, ‘reckoned’ in 4:4,10, and ‘imputed’ in 4:6,8,11,22,23,24.

 

[mikeledes]

Eric,

If your are infused with righteousness then you are a perfect man.
Imputation is in the new testiment many times. You still live in a sinful body. You sin every day to one degree or another unless you are perfect. Are you? I know thats why you have to go to purgatory. Even the Pope goes. God knew we can not be perfect enough to go to heaven so Christs righteousness is imputed to us. If you believe in purgatory you void the sacrifice of Christ. I fear that those who try to get in another way are in Big trouble.

• Easton Bible Dictionary

To impute means to credit or reckon or count something to one’s account. It is distinct from impartation and infusion. The Greek verb for imputation, logizomai ([Strong’s #3049]) is used more than 40 times in the New Testament, ten times in Romans chapter 4 – sometimes called the imputation chapter. In the KJV, logizomai is translated ‘counted’ in 4:3,5, ‘reckoned’ in 4:4,10, and ‘imputed’ in 4:6,8,11,22,23,24.

The Bible says…

2 Corinthians 5:17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[CentralFLJames]

This is the key of Catholic disagreement with Protestants. While you might believe that we are “declared” righteous (imputed), Catholics believe this to be unbiblical, and inconsistent to the type of relationship God wants to have with us. We are actually progressively sanctified and infused with the Grace of God; we are actually made clean, and not “covered up” or “declared” clean.

If we are really infused with Grace, then there is a logical necessity for a place like Purgatory, because a soul can be in several states. If you have enough Grace, you will go straight to heaven. If you have some Grace and some stain of sin, you need to be “purged” of that sin, but you will be saved. If you have no grace, you will burn eternally.

Peace be with you!

-Eric

Eric, this was a very good statement about the differences of belief.

Additional insight I might add is as follows:
The whole concept of imputed (Protestantism) and **infused **(Catholicism) are a universe apart. Catholics do not believe that God is incapable of imputing His beneficent grace on humankind through the merits of Jesus. What we do believe and what is backed up in the very gradual revelation of scripture itself and by other prefiguring evidence in scripture and tradition is that God elects to infuse His salvivic grace. God wants a committed cooperation and partnership with Himself. He wants to grow us under His nurturing protection and care and ripen us to full fruits just as a grape ripens on the vine as it is watered by rain and invigorated by sunshine. It is only after the vine bears good fruit and is worked by God, harvested and then transforms from ordinary fruit into spiritual fruit (I like the wine analogy present in the Eucharist) that it serves God and is pleasing to God.

Christ did not come to save humanity on the same day that mankind fell from grace. The revelations of the Old Testament prophets did not come in the span of a single lifetime. No, these all came in due season as man cooperated with God and was able to progress and benefit by God’s grace from his fallen status in the direction toward being “Children of God”. This all implies infused grace. There clearly is a deliberate and gradual gestation process of proven trust in God (not without periods of falling away and stunting the process through separation). Thus we see the principal of infusion of grace over and over again in scripture and in the maturation of the covenants from Old to New and the infant Christian Church. Likewise the grace of the Holy Spirit is imparted at Baptism and as we grow in God’s grace the spirit gradually and steadily produces fruits (see Gifts & Fruits of the Holy Spirit) from that infusion of grace (think “seed”). In this sense we are as clay of the earth and God is the seed. In that, yes God can put his seed in raw clay and fire in one mighty act of imputed grace to make us into angelic like beings. But that is not how He usually works. No God prefers to grow us and let us exercise free will to choose daily to bask in His grace and benefit by it by growing ever more toward Him and like Him. This is also integrative with His Justice. A soul must not only hear and know God’s saving word but it must also obey God daily to benefit from God’s grace. In the same way the church itself grows and matures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through active cooperation with God and being faithful to His will and teaching. Those who break away from the Church remove themselves from a large portion of God’s saving grace as well as the nurturing and fruit bearing graces.

The beauty though is that God can and does irradiate us with saving grace at a rate proportional to our cooperation. But He can increase that rate by the profound dichotomy of contrast between a life long sinner and that same’s new acceptance of the truth (e.g. Mary Magdalene). So, that huge wake-up experience can open a person up to a huge infusion of immediate grace to get them “boot strapped” so to speak. So that even a life long sinner can repent and bear much fruit in short order while a lazy life long Christian might bear very little fruit.

Bottom Line - we are infused with grace not imputed. We can not abuse God’s justice by assuming that we get it all and are saved by giving nothing but “lip service” to God (e.g. believing “Jesus saves”) without cooperating with His grace and living in a manner that demonstrates that trust and faith. No, we must bask in that grace daily and reach out to every sacrament available to gain access to additional grace available to not only heal us from our forgiven sins but to actually mature us fully into the thing God wanted us to be.

James

 

[Writer]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

I don’t think that’s the best passage to support Purgatory. It’s my understanding that that was a special place for those of faith who died before Christ rose from the dead–those of the Old Covenant. As far as Protestants and Purgatory, C.S. Lewis’ quote on Purgatory might make them pause and think.

 

[Joe_5859]

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison”. These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

This passage states there is a place other than Heaven and Hell.(Purgatory) If Protestants believe that this place no longer exists, then they believe something that is not biblical.

What you think? Is this a stumper?

I wouldn’t call it a stumper. I don’t think this passage is conclusive proof of Purgatory, but it does at least illustrate that Purgatory is a possibility.

It is not clear that this place mentioned in this passage is Purgatory (certainly not clear enough to convince a non-Catholic). However, this passage does show that there can be a place in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.

This verse probably won’t be enough to change someone’s mind instantaneously. But, it may at least plant a seed that the teachings of the Church are not opposed to the Bible, even if they are not explicitly stated in the Bible.

 

[abcd]

The Bible says…

2 Corinthians 5:17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

God Bless,
Michael

Mike,

Looks like you agree with me on this one:thumbsup:

 

[abcd]

Eric, this was a very good statement about the differences of belief.

Additional insight I might add is as follows:
The whole concept of imputed (Protestantism) and **infused **(Catholicism) are a universe apart. Catholics do not believe that God is incapable of imputing His beneficent grace on humankind through the merits of Jesus. What we do believe and what is backed up in the very gradual revelation of scripture itself and by other prefiguring evidence in scripture and tradition is that God elects to infuse His salvivic grace. God wants a committed cooperation and partnership with Himself. He wants to grow us under His nurturing protection and care and ripen us to full fruits just as a grape ripens on the vine as it is watered by rain and invigorated by sunshine. It is only after the vine bears good fruit and is worked by God, harvested and then transforms from ordinary fruit into spiritual fruit (I like the wine analogy present in the Eucharist) that it serves God and is pleasing to God.

Christ did not come to save humanity on the same day that mankind fell from grace. The revelations of the Old Testament prophets did not come in the span of a single lifetime. No, these all came in due season as man cooperated with God and was able to progress and benefit by God’s grace from his fallen status in the direction toward being “Children of God”. This all implies infused grace. There clearly is a deliberate and gradual gestation process of proven trust in God (not without periods of falling away and stunting the process through separation). Thus we see the principal of infusion of grace over and over again in scripture and in the maturation of the covenants from Old to New and the infant Christian Church. Likewise the grace of the Holy Spirit is imparted at Baptism and as we grow in God’s grace the spirit gradually and steadily produces fruits (see Gifts & Fruits of the Holy Spirit) from that infusion of grace (think “seed”). In this sense we are as clay of the earth and God is the seed. In that, yes God can put his seed in raw clay and fire in one mighty act of imputed grace to make us into angelic like beings. But that is not how He usually works. No God prefers to grow us and let us exercise free will to choose daily to bask in His grace and benefit by it by growing ever more toward Him and like Him. This is also integrative with His Justice. A soul must not only hear and know God’s saving word but it must also obey God daily to benefit from God’s grace. In the same way the church itself grows and matures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through active cooperation with God and being faithful to His will and teaching. Those who break away from the Church remove themselves from a large portion of God’s saving grace as well as the nurturing and fruit bearing graces.

The beauty though is that God can and does irradiate us with saving grace at a rate proportional to our cooperation. But He can increase that rate by the profound dichotomy of contrast between a life long sinner and that same’s new acceptance of the truth (e.g. Mary Magdalene). So, that huge wake-up experience can open a person up to a huge infusion of immediate grace to get them “boot strapped” so to speak. So that even a life long sinner can repent and bear much fruit in short order while a lazy life long Christian might bear very little fruit.

Bottom Line - we are infused with grace not imputed. We can not abuse God’s justice by assuming that we get it all and are saved by giving nothing but “lip service” to God (e.g. believing “Jesus saves”) without cooperating with His grace and living in a manner that demonstrates that trust and faith. No, we must bask in that grace daily and reach out to every sacrament available to gain access to additional grace available to not only heal us from our forgiven sins but to actually mature us fully into the thing God wanted us to be.

James

James,

Sanctification is an ongoing thing all our lives. Why do you imply above that I do not believe this. Imputation does not take away the fact that you need not or don’t want to live a pleasing life to the Lord or bear fruit? Why make assumtions like these because they are not true.

Infusion is not scriptual as you state. I gave the scriptures concerning imputation.