Protestant Question

[deepsouthpapist]

Are there any comments considered infallible regarding protestants? We hear all the time that protestants are merely separated brethren but it wasn’t that long ago they were considered heretics if my understanding serves me well.

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

 

[1ke]

Are there any comments considered infallible regarding protestants? We hear all the time that protestants are merely separated brethren but it wasn’t that long ago they were considered heretics if my understanding serves me well.

The doctrines of non-Catholic ecclesial communities are most certainly heresies where they depart from Catholic teaching. There is no ambiguity there.

We properly term doctrinal statements as “heretical” or not.

People are another matter. A heretic is a Catholic who rejects all or some part of Catholic teaching. A non-Catholic cannot be a heretic, only a Catholic can be a heretic in relation to the Catholic Church.

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

The Church rightly used the term “heretic” in reference to those *Catholics *who denied Catholic truths-- Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc-- and their first generation followers. The Church does not apply that term to non-Catholics born into an ecclesial community.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

See above. If that does not answer your question, please post more detail as to what you are looking for.

 

[david_bray]

If we want our Father in heaven to judge our worth and our standards then surely we should leave it up to him who will enter. We have enough worries to contend with in our own little world. Do we judge? do we truly live as a christian when we think that being this or that is wrong.I am devout and would never feel that another christian of another denomination is of less worth.Perhaps they cannot see truth as we do, perhaps they are cradle christians within their own family denominations.I consider my choice to become a Roman Catholic the right path, the true path, but I will wait at the gate one day with the Lord at my side sayin" hi "to those that choose, another message to salvation knowing that if it is good enough for him then who am I?May god our father bless you in every way possible.
David Bray.

 

[tweetymom]

If we want our Father in heaven to judge our worth and our standards then surely we should leave it up to him who will enter. We have enough worries to contend with in our own little world. Do we judge? do we truly live as a christian when we think that being this or that is wrong.I am devout and would never feel that another christian of another denomination is of less worth.Perhaps they cannot see truth as we do, perhaps they are cradle christians within their own family denominations.I consider my choice to become a Roman Catholic the right path, the true path, but I will wait at the gate one day with the Lord at my side sayin" hi "to those that choose, another message to salvation knowing that if it is good enough for him then who am I?May god our father bless you in every way possible.
David Bray.

Right on David!! So many Catholics feel that they must judge others who don’t worship as they do. The Bible says to work out our own salvation:shrug: with fear and trembling. Not someone elses

 

[NHInsider]

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

In order to be guilty one would have to KNOW that the teaching of the Church was true or that the Church teaches with Christ’s authority and leave anyway. So those who caused the schism bear the guilt - those who merely followed those whose authority they trusted and those born later into the separated communities do not.

'zat make sense?

 

[Victorious]

Are there any comments considered infallible regarding protestants? We hear all the time that protestants are merely separated brethren but it wasn’t that long ago they were considered heretics if my understanding serves me well.

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

If you are looking for infallible statements regarding Protestants, one that comes to mind is a declaration specifically regarding the Church of England. After commissioning a study on the validity of Anglican orders, Pope Leo XIII declared the nullity of Anglican orders, based on the changes made to the rite of ordination under Edward VI, followed by the dying out in England of the last generation of validly ordained clergy. After explaining the reasons for the study, and going over the history of Anglican orders, Pope Leo declared:

Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void.

Apostolicae Curae (September 18, 1896)
​

I think it’s safe to say that this is an infallible statement, as it concerns the faith, and the language in which it is couched expresses a clear intent to close any debates on the subject. I think it’s equally safe to say that Leo XIII would have liked to have been able to conclude that Anglican orders were valid, as this would have removed a significant obstacle to Christian unity; however, he had to be – and was – faithful to the Truth.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Thanks for all the posts - Mine is more of an intellectual question. I don’t plan on treating anyone differently than I do now. Certainly not based on their religious affiliation. I am curious though why we now refer to protestants as separated brethren vs something stronger. Either they have the Truth or they don’t. If they do not (which is clear) then why not say so? It’s not warm and fuzzy, I get that but to lead someone on by saying your just not “quite” as good as us by calling them separated brethren gives a flase impression (in my opinion) that there is not as much of a divide between Catholics and protestants as there in fact is. Thoughts?

 

[tweetymom]

I too am not going to treat a Protestand any different than I do now and that is as a Christian brother or sister

 

[Victorious]

Thanks for all the posts - Mine is more of an intellectual question. I don’t plan on treating anyone differently than I do now. Certainly not based on their religious affiliation. I am curious though why we now refer to protestants as separated brethren vs something stronger. Either they have the Truth or they don’t. If they do not (which is clear) then why not say so? It’s not warm and fuzzy, I get that but to lead someone on by saying your just not “quite” as good as us by calling them separated brethren gives a flase impression (in my opinion) that there is not as much of a divide between Catholics and protestants as there in fact is. Thoughts?

Could be part of the overall trend toward sentimentality and the wussification of language that we have seen outside the Church as well as in the Church. If you look at older apologetics books (e.g., Radio Replies, which is excellent), you see truth couched in plain, straightforward, even – dare I say it – manly fashion. These days, we’re more worried about giving offense than about speaking the truth.

 

[Victorious]

And I’m not saying we should deliberately and unnecessarily give offense. I am saying that charity and truth should come first. And charity demands that we speak the truth.

 

[1ke]

Thanks for all the posts - Mine is more of an intellectual question. I don’t plan on treating anyone differently than I do now. Certainly not based on their religious affiliation. I am curious though why we now refer to protestants as separated brethren vs something stronger. Either they have the Truth or they don’t. If they do not (which is clear) then why not say so?

What is unclear, watered down, or indirect regarding non-Catholics in Dominus Iesus, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, and Ut Unum Sint?

These documents are very clear. There is only One Church, there is only one Truth, and there is only One Way to Christ-- the Catholic Church.

but to lead someone on by saying your just not “quite” as good as us by calling them separated brethren gives a flase impression (in my opinion) that there is not as much of a divide between Catholics and protestants as there in fact is. Thoughts?

Again, Dominus Iesus, Eccelsia de Eucharistia, and Ut Unum Sint are NOT unclear or leading. In some cases the divide is rather small, and in other cases it is quite large. The Church reaches out to all non-Catholics in the hope of their return to the Faith, not with the intent of watering anything down to make it palatable to them. They must recevie the Truth as it is, there is no other way.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Are there any comments considered infallible regarding protestants? We hear all the time that protestants are merely separated brethren but it wasn’t that long ago they were considered heretics if my understanding serves me well.

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

First lets make a statement a bit more accurate.

Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ by virtue of their valid Baptism. (Remember that one cannot be a Christian without valid Baptism.)

Protestants are incorporated into Christ with their valid Baptism, and that can never change.

They are “separated” not from us but from the Church founded by Christ.

They become heretics when they personally reject and hold a belief that is opposed to the deposit of faith, to reject someting a person must first know of it

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Could be part of the overall trend toward sentimentality and the wussification of language that we have seen outside the Church as well as in the Church. If you look at older apologetics books (e.g., Radio Replies, which is excellent), you see truth couched in plain, straightforward, even – dare I say it – manly fashion. These days, we’re more worried about giving offense than about speaking the truth.

Thank you!!! I don’t mean to use strong language here but Damnit, this person is right! It isn’t charitable telling my young son, hitting your sister separates you from the family and causes you harm (which is true). In reality, I must say to my son, “Don’t hit your sister. We do not tolerate that in our family,” then hand down consequences for his actions. A stretch as an analogy for sure but the point is clear, Truth is always more charitable than a lie or half truth or watered down language truth. Lord does it sting but in the end it is the only thing that truly saves! Being warm and squishy sometimes isn’t only not charitable it is down right wrong!

 

[deepsouthpapist]

First lets make a statement a bit more accurate.

Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ by virtue of their valid Baptism. (Remember that one cannot be a Christian without valid Baptism.)

Protestants are incorporated into Christ with their valid Baptism, and that can never change.

They are “separated” not from us but from the Church founded by Christ.

They become heretics when they personally reject and hold a belief that is opposed to the deposit of faith, to reject someting a person must first know of it

Thank you for your post and clarification - I am but a laymen and not the most educated one at that! You are right in your post in all aspects and your clarity is worth noting.

So that everyone understands what I am not saying let me make a few things clear. I am in no way suggesting anyone, me especially act differently towards anyone outside of the Catholic faith for any reason.

In point of fact, my entire family is protestant! I am the only Catholic convert! To alienate myself based on religion would cost me dearly. My family has been very supportive of my decision although my mother didn’t understand my decision and my brother and father chastised me for it (as men will do) we get along fine! My mother even comes to church with my family on occasion.

Now that we have that clear let’s move on shall we?

I believe I have found the Truth I have been seeking and desperately want to share it with everyone. However, why prosthelytize protestants if they are merely separated brethren doing the best they can with what they’ve got. Poor protestants…Why bring them into the fold, if they are joined with us in Christ through baptism? Why not leave them alone?

Seems to me we should evangelize ALL who are not Catholic! Especially protestants!

 

[1ke]

I believe I have found the Truth I have been seeking and desperately want to share it with everyone. However, why prosthelytize protestants if they are merely separated brethren doing the best they can with what they’ve got. Poor protestants…Why bring them into the fold, if they are joined with us in Christ through baptism? Why not leave them alone?

Seems to me we should evangelize ALL who are not Catholic! Especially protestants!

You seem to be under the impression that the Church teaches that because the Church calls non-Catholics who are validly baptized “separated brethren” that there is no need to evangelize.

This is not true.

Your entire premise seems to be based on a false idea.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Thank you for your post and clarification - I am but a laymen and not the most educated one at that! You are right in your post in all aspects and your clarity is worth noting.

So that everyone understands what I am not saying let me make a few things clear. I am in no way suggesting anyone, me especially act differently towards anyone outside of the Catholic faith for any reason.

In point of fact, my entire family is protestant! I am the only Catholic convert! To alienate myself based on religion would cost me dearly. My family has been very supportive of my decision although my mother didn’t understand my decision and my brother and father chastised me for it (as men will do) we get along fine! My mother even comes to church with my family on occasion.

Now that we have that clear let’s move on shall we?

I believe I have found the Truth I have been seeking and desperately want to share it with everyone. However, why prosthelytize protestants if they are merely separated brethren doing the best they can with what they’ve got. Poor protestants…Why bring them into the fold, if they are joined with us in Christ through baptism? Why not leave them alone?

Seems to me we should evangelize ALL who are not Catholic! Especially protestants!

We should evangelize all who are not Catholic. We should help them to see the spiritual riches and treasures of the Church founded by Christ for Christians. All the Baptized are in a way united to the Catholic Church but, many are simply stuck to the outside wall. We need to invite them to come inside before the get knocked off by a strong wind. Where they can have access to the full gifts of Christ, The Eucharist and the other Sacraments, The Mass (The Divine Liturgy) with the Saints and Angels, etc.

 

[Victorious]

We should evangelize all who are not Catholic. We should help them to see the spiritual riches and treasures of the Church founded by Christ for Christians. All the Baptized are in a way united to the Catholic Church but, many are simply stuck to the outside wall. We need to invite them to come inside before the get knocked off by a strong wind. Where they can have access to the full gifts of Christ, The Eucharist and the other Sacraments, The Mass (The Divine Liturgy) with the Saints and Angels, etc.

I think the OP’s problem is that we don’t seem to be offering people a clear-cut choice between what they have right now and what they could have if the boarded the Barque of Peter. We’re toning down our Catholicity in order to make it more palatable, but all we’re really doing is diluting the Gospel.

 

[1ke]

I think the OP’s problem is that we don’t seem to be offering people a clear-cut choice between what they have right now and what they could have if the boarded the Barque of Peter. We’re toning down our Catholicity in order to make it more palatable, but all we’re really doing is diluting the Gospel.

Who is the “we” that are toning down their catholicity? Can you give examples of “toning down” catholicity to make it “more palatable?”

 

[deepsouthpapist]

First lets make a statement a bit more accurate.

Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ by virtue of their valid Baptism. (Remember that one cannot be a Christian without valid Baptism.)

Protestants are incorporated into Christ with their valid Baptism, and that can never change.

They are “separated” not from us but from the Church founded by Christ.

They become heretics when they personally reject and hold a belief that is opposed to the deposit of faith, to reject someting a person must first know of it

I have a question regarding a valid Baptism as it relates to this discussion - The church has declared which churches have validly recognized clergy and those that do not. Most, if not all protestant churches do not have valid clergy. Would then not there baptisms be declared invalid as well?

 

[deepsouthpapist]

I think the OP’s problem is that we don’t seem to be offering people a clear-cut choice between what they have right now and what they could have if the boarded the Barque of Peter. We’re toning down our Catholicity in order to make it more palatable, but all we’re really doing is diluting the Gospel.

Spot on, thanks!