Protestant Question

[deepsouthpapist]

Who is the “we” that are toning down their catholicity? Can you give examples of “toning down” catholicity to make it “more palatable?”

I think the mere fact that we are considering protestants as separated brethren gives a false impression that they are like us, only a shade different and therefore there is no need to come to the Catholic church, you’re just fine where you are “brother”.

 

[1ke]

I think the mere fact that we are considering protestants as separated brethren gives a false impression that they are like us, only a shade different and therefore there is no need to come to the Catholic church, you’re just fine where you are “brother”.

They *are *like us. They are validly baptized. That is a fact. Baptism imparts a wholly new character, and any baptized person possesses this by virtue of their baptism. They possess it fully and equally.

 

[1ke]

I have a question regarding a valid Baptism as it relates to this discussion - The church has declared which churches have validly recognized clergy and those that do not. Most, if not all protestant churches do not have valid clergy. Would then not there baptisms be declared invalid as well?

No.

The Church teaches that anyone may baptize, per canon law there are varying circumstances as to when, where, and by whom.

Baptism is not restricted to Catholic priests only for it to be valid.

 

[tweetymom]

No.

The Church teaches that anyone may baptize, per canon law there are varying circumstances as to when, where, and by whom.

Baptism is not restricted to Catholic priests only for it to be valid.

Well said , I think that when we get to Heaven we will see a lot of Protestants welcomed by Jesus:thumbsup:

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Well said , I think that when we get to Heaven we will see a lot of Protestants welcomed by Jesus:thumbsup:

You guys are taking it way beyond where I intended this discussion to go. I am sure a lot of protestants will be in heaven, yet the Pope has stated that there is no salvation outside the church. Protestants are outside the church yet they are “separated brethren.” Get where I am going here? Consistency is what drives people to the Truth.

So I am your neighborhood friendly protestant - I am a separated brother from the Catholics but a damn fine protestant! I live it the best way I can. Then I read no salvation outside the Catholic church! Wait a minute, I thought I was merely a separated brother? Brother implies oneness, right? How can this be? Am I Saved or not? Is there salvation outside the Catholic church or not? Am I separated or not?

You see how for someone outside the Catholic faith (and frankly inside the faith as well) this can all be very confusing. But should it be? How do you communicate what is really going on with the Church?

 

[1ke]

You guys are taking it way beyond where I intended this discussion to go. I am sure a lot of protestants will be in heaven, yet the Pope has stated that there is no salvation outside the church. Protestants are outside the church yet they are “separated brethren.” Get where I am going here? Consistency is what drives people to the Truth.

You are correct. There is no salvation outside the Church. That is not incompatible with any statement I have made. See the CCC paragraphs 846-848.

Brother implies oneness, right?

No it does not.

How can this be? Am I Saved or not?

No one knows if they will be saved until they die. Final perseverance is necessary.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic church or not?

See above for the link to the Catechism on this topic.

Am I separated or not?

Those who are baptized are incorporated into the Body of Christ by virtue of their baptism. Jesus calls all such persons “brother” because we are baptized and regenerated as Children of God.

Those who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church are separated from the Church in various ways.

You see how for someone outside the Catholic faith (and frankly inside the faith as well) this can all be very confusing. But should it be? How do you communicate what is really going on with the Church?

No. I don’t see your confusion at all. I see that you are confused, but not why.

Baptism makes us all *members *of the Body of Christ.

Full communion with the Catholic Church makes us *fully incorporated into *and *participating in *that Body in the way Christ intended.

 

[dnar]

You guys are taking it way beyond where I intended this discussion to go. I am sure a lot of protestants will be in heaven, yet the Pope has stated that there is no salvation outside the church. Protestants are outside the church yet they are “separated brethren.” Get where I am going here? Consistency is what drives people to the Truth.

So I am your neighborhood friendly protestant - I am a separated brother from the Catholics but a damn fine protestant! I live it the best way I can. Then I read no salvation outside the Catholic church! Wait a minute, I thought I was merely a separated brother? Brother implies oneness, right? How can this be? Am I Saved or not? Is there salvation outside the Catholic church or not? Am I separated or not?

You see how for someone outside the Catholic faith (and frankly inside the faith as well) this can all be very confusing. But should it be? How do you communicate what is really going on with the Church?

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

 

[dnar]

Well said , I think that when we get to Heaven we will see a lot of Protestants welcomed by Jesus:thumbsup:

One thing I have been wondering about is mortal sin un-confessed will send a soul to hell. The only way to have mortal sin forgiven is confess to a validly ordained priest through the sacrament of reconciliation. Do you think Protestants can achieve heaven as well with no confession?

Maybe where the catechism says “through no fault of their own”…maybe this applies to Protestants who simply do not know that confession is necessary.

However how does it apply to those people who know about confession and simply reject it. I am not saying they know it to be true. I am saying that have read about it and say “Jesus never said that.”

What do you think?

 

[Victorious]

One thing I have been wondering about is mortal sin un-confessed will send a soul to hell. The only way to have mortal sin forgiven is confess to a validly ordained priest through the sacrament of reconciliation. Do you think Protestants can achieve heaven as well with no confession?

Maybe where the catechism says “through no fault of their own”…maybe this applies to Protestants who simply do not know that confession is necessary.

However how does it apply to those people who know about confession and simply reject it. I am not saying they know it to be true. I am saying that have read about it and say “Jesus never said that.”

What do you think?

An act of perfect contrition will also do it. But perfect contrition is a grace that cannot be presumed upon. Perfect contrition does not excuse from the obligation to confess the sin, if the opportunity arises.

 

[1ke]

One thing I have been wondering about is mortal sin un-confessed will send a soul to hell. The only way to have mortal sin forgiven is confess to a validly ordained priest through the sacrament of reconciliation. Do you think Protestants can achieve heaven as well with no confession?

We don’t know that this is the *only *way. We know this is the *ordinary *way. God *may *choose an *extraordinary *way for those who have true contrition but lack knowledge regarding the necessity of the Catholic Church and the Sacraments. Or, he may not choose an extraordinary way. God is both just and merciful.

Maybe where the catechism says “through no fault of their own”…maybe this applies to Protestants who simply do not know that confession is necessary.

Yes, this is possible.

However how does it apply to those people who know about confession and simply reject it. I am not saying they know it to be true. I am saying that have read about it and say “Jesus never said that.”

What do you think?

The Church does not teach that knowing of the *existence *of something negates invincible ignorance. The person would have to have internalized this teaching and then rejected it.

God knows the person’s heart and mind. God knows if they understood the teaching or not and rejected out of a free act of their will or out of ignorance.

 

[dnar]

Okay thank you, 1ke.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You guys are taking it way beyond where I intended this discussion to go. I am sure a lot of protestants will be in heaven, yet the Pope has stated that there is no salvation outside the church. Protestants are outside the church yet they are “separated brethren.” Get where I am going here? Consistency is what drives people to the Truth.

So I am your neighborhood friendly protestant - I am a separated brother from the Catholics but a damn fine protestant! I live it the best way I can. Then I read no salvation outside the Catholic church! Wait a minute, I thought I was merely a separated brother? Brother implies oneness, right? How can this be? Am I Saved or not? Is there salvation outside the Catholic church or not? Am I separated or not?

You see how for someone outside the Catholic faith (and frankly inside the faith as well) this can all be very confusing. But should it be? How do you communicate what is really going on with the Church?

Protestants are outside the visible unity of the Catholic Church, but are in an imperfect way associated with it, as Baptized Christians. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (the mystical Body of Christ), Salvation is only through Christ!

The Catholic Church rejects Protestant Communities as being Churches equal to herself, but does not reject any validly Baptized persons as being Christians.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

One thing I have been wondering about is mortal sin un-confessed will send a soul to hell. The only way to have mortal sin forgiven is confess to a validly ordained priest through the sacrament of reconciliation. Do you think Protestants can achieve heaven as well with no confession?

Maybe where the catechism says “through no fault of their own”…maybe this applies to Protestants who simply do not know that confession is necessary.

However how does it apply to those people who know about confession and simply reject it. I am not saying they know it to be true. I am saying that have read about it and say “Jesus never said that.”

What do you think?

The ordinary way to have mortal sin forgiven is confess to a validly ordained priest through the sacrament of reconciliation. Christ is not however bound to His Sacraments as the only means of supplying His grace. Mortal sins can be forgiven outside the Sacrament of Confession when one dies without the possibility of having access to the Sacrament of Confession.

 

[deepsouthpapist]

Protestants are outside the visible unity of the Catholic Church, but are in an imperfect way associated with it, as Baptized Christians. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church (the mystical Body of Christ), Salvation is only through Christ!

The Catholic Church rejects Protestant Communities as being Churches equal to herself, but does not reject any validly Baptized persons as being Christians.

So validly baptized persons are Christians and are imperfectly associated with the Catholic Church through baptism but are not Catholic and their communities are not even considered churches. Got it, I guess… So are you saying protestants are validly baptized but have no claim whatever to salvation?

Let’s say for clarity sake here that we know Christ may choose whomever for final salvation so we can avoid a lot of argument. So ordinarily speaking if one is outside the Catholic church and her sacraments are they also “separated” if you will from her saving Grace through the sacraments?

In other words just like the ordinary way for a Catholic to be forgiven of sins is to go to confession, it is also true that the ordinary way a person is Saved is through the Catholic Church, right? This can be said since there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

So if you are outside the Catholic church as a protestant then it would be exceptional then for you to be saved, correct?

There, all cleared up now…

 

[1ke]

So validly baptized persons are Christians and are imperfectly associated with the Catholic Church through baptism but are not Catholic and their communities are not even considered churches.

Correct-- non-Catholics have valid baptism and are Christians.

A *Church *requires apostolic succession to exist. The Orthodox have apostolic succession and valid Holy Orders and Sacraments. Therefore the Orthdox Churches are properly termed Churches. Those Christian communities that lack apostolic succession and Holy Orders do not have Churches, they have ecclesial communities. Therefore, you should not capitalize church when referring to their group.

So are you saying protestants are validly baptized but have no claim whatever to salvation?

No, that is not what he is saying at all.

Let’s say for clarity sake here that we know Christ may choose whomever for final salvation so we can avoid a lot of argument. So ordinarily speaking if one is outside the Catholic church and her sacraments are they also “separated” if you will from her saving Grace through the sacraments?

In other words just like the ordinary way for a Catholic to be forgiven of sins is to go to confession, it is also true that the ordinary way a person is Saved is through the Catholic Church, right? This can be said since there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

So if you are outside the Catholic church as a protestant then it would be exceptional then for you to be saved, correct?

No. You are applying meaning to “outside the Church there is no salvation” that the Church herself does not apply.

There, all cleared up now…

Nope. Go back and read the Catechism.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Are there any comments considered infallible regarding protestants? We hear all the time that protestants are merely separated brethren but it wasn’t that long ago they were considered heretics if my understanding serves me well.

It seems to me that the position of the church regarding protestants hasn’t changed but the language has been softened to bring about greater ecuminical understanding.

What is the actual church position is regarding Catholics today and what the basis for that belief is considering past statements from Popes and the magesterium.

They certainly won’t declare them to be infallible, but there are non-biblical docrines which I believe all (or at least most) non-Catholics consider to be essential.

Traditions Protestants Can Accept

Are there extra-biblical Church traditions that Protestants will accept? Can even one be found?

In order to determine this fairly, we must evaluate each doctrine that is proposed as a candidate according to several criteria:

a) The doctrine in question is accepted by the Protestants to whom one is speaking
b) The doctrine is not stated in Scripture
c) The doctrine is not implied by Scripture
d) The doctrine has an extrabiblical history to which one can appeal as an alternative, extrascriptural basis

The following doctrines are proposed as those which meet all of the criteria above and are agreed to be binding upon the consciences of all believers:

1. The canon of the New Testament
2. Public revelation has ended
3. There are to be no more Apostles

If any one of these three doctrines meet the criteria above, then it has been proven that Protestants have accepted teaching that has come by a source other the Bible Alone; thus, sola scriptura is false.

Condensed from:

Doctrines Known by Tradition
By James Akin
jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/doctrines_known.html

 

[tweetymom]

whew:shrug: Sorry to say that you all are quite a bit confusing to say the least. Instead relying on the law of the Catholic Church some of you need to read what the Bible says about salvation and how to attain it:thumbsup:

 

[davidv]

whew:shrug: Sorry to say that you all are quite a bit confusing to say the least. Instead relying on the law of the Catholic Church some of you need to read what the Bible says about salvation and how to attain it:thumbsup:

It is this exact approach that has caused the confusion in the first place. How can the same method create anything other than what it created originally?

 

[tweetymom]

It is this exact approach that has caused the confusion in the first place. How can the same method create anything other than what it created originally?

Beats me! I just go by what the Bible says . Just because you are baptiszed doesn"t me you are saved.

 

[tweetymom]

Read Romans 10: 11- 14 All of John 3. God Bless:thumbsup: