Protestant Questions About Purgatory

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Protestant101

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To see a reference point for this thread; please see Post #532: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=238010&page=36
“You, due to your “incomplete” Bible, reject the concept of purgatory and praying for the dead, whereas we, because we are blessed with the complete Bible can go to a number of verses in both the OLD and New Testaments including 2 Maccabees Chapter 12 vs 43-46 and find the idea of praying for the dead and forgiveness of sin after death is be clearly present.”
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I would like to discuss more specifics regarding this claim about “purgatory” and how the generally accepted Protestant Canon falls “short” with this doctrine. I am interested in this separate topic, as my major questions will be with the doctrine of Purgatory itself, and how this doctrine is related to the Bible.

By saying: "“You, due to your “incomplete” Bible, reject the concept of purgatory and praying for the dead,” are Catholics here telling me that “Purgatory” is found only in the Apocrypha? Why are you saying: “because of your incomplete Bible?”
 
Some Scriptures within the Protestant Bible can be cited as arguably supporting purgatory, such as Paul praying for the late Onesiphorus in 2 Tim 1:16.

I think 2 Macc 12:43-46, which plainly advocates prayer for the dead, makes the Catholic case stronger, but I wouldn’t say that it’s the only verse that supports the idea of purgatory.
 
I thought christians believe that prayers can be answered even before they are prayed. So, when one prays for the dead, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are in purgatory.

I don’t know when or where purgatory was first taught - but I don’t think the bible is very clear on the subject.

I wonder what Luther and Zwingli thought about purgatory. 🤷
 
Where do Proetestants find altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

Where do they find the formula “Accept Christ as your personal Savior”?

I’ve yet to see any of these therein, myself.

When you show me where these are in the Bible, then we’ll talk about purgatory. Fair enough?
 
In the Protestant bible, there are 7 books “fewer” than the Catholic bible. Purgatory is in the book of Maccabees which Protestants do not read.
Remember that the bible was compiled by the Catholic church, therefore her bible is untouched, protected, and preserved over the centuries.:bible1:
 
bpbasilphx said:
Where do Proetestants find altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

Where do they find the formula “Accept Christ as your personal Savior”?

I’ve yet to see any of these therein, myself.

When you show me where these are in the Bible, then we’ll talk about purgatory. Fair enough?
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The word “personal” was derived by Martin Luther and nothing more.
 
There was and still is a Jewish tradition for praying for the dead.
Maccabees does mention it. Jewish tradition always called for two or three witnesses. Purgatory fails this test a test even Christ used.
In any case Maccabees Jewish tradition were all before the crucifiction and the resurrection of Christ, Christ who paid it all. The sufficency of the cross makes purgatory impossible.
 
Here you go Protestant.

This contains a number of verses in the Bible relating to Purgatory.

And here is a list of examples of the Deuterocanon being referred to in the rest of the Bible.

Hope this helps, God bless

Peter.
 
bpbasilphx said:
Where do Proetestants find altar calls, invitation hymns, and revivals in the Bible?

Where do they find the formula “Accept Christ as your personal Savior”?

I’ve yet to see any of these therein, myself.

When you show me where these are in the Bible, then we’ll talk about purgatory. Fair enough?
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Show me where the Bible even mentions the Bible.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
I thought christians believe that prayers can be answered even before they are prayed. So, when one prays for the dead, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are in purgatory.

I don’t know when or where purgatory was first taught - but I don’t think the bible is very clear on the subject.

I wonder what Luther and Zwingli thought about purgatory. 🤷
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Charlie,
Luther said,
"Now it is my opinion that in all of Scripture there is not a mention of purgatory that could pass the test in case of dispute or be appealed to with conviction
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From my perspective, the big issue was the use of indulgences in order to free loved ones from purgatory. Lutherans believe that Christ’s death and resurrection are sufficient to “purge” the penitent.

Jon
 
By saying: "“You, due to your “incomplete” Bible, reject the concept of purgatory and praying for the dead,” are Catholics here telling me that “Purgatory” is found only in the Apocrypha? Why are you saying: “because of your incomplete Bible?”
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Missing data is a terrible thing - let’s take an archaeological example: You and I are excavators and we find two skeletons in a house, one male, the other female. They are holding hands. I state that they are a married couple who died together. You are unconvinced. You find rings on both the skeletons - I say they are married, you say they are both married to somebody, but not necessarily to one another. Next I find a marriage certificate in one of the drawers - you say this means that somebody who lived here was married, but it doesn’t prove the same couple had those skeletons within them in life. Now we take dental records. The link between the rings, the names on the certificates, and the bodies on the floor are finally established - now will you ask me whether the idea of this married couple dying together is found only in dental records? No, it is only in the complete picture that we get the full story.

When the Church interprets the bible, the entirety of scripture is examined. Let’s take a scriptural example - let’s suppose that the book of John had not been in the protestant canon. I would say to you that the reason you abandoned the eucharist is because of your incomplete bible, am I saying that the eucharist is only to be found in the book of John? Of course not - the case for the eucharist is established in the garden of Eden, clarified in Revelation, and expounded upon in between, but I am saying that the loss of John 6:1 - 6:66 is tragic in terms of our understanding of the blessed sacrament and just how literally it was meant.

To get the full story, you need to examine everything. A verse out of context of its chapter is not good enough, a book out of context of its canon is not good enough, a canon out of context of its language and history is not good enough.

Hope that helps,
 
Jesus said “you will not get out of that prison until you have paid the final penny”.

That prison cannot be heaven because people aren’t imprisoned in Heaven.

That prison cannot be Hell because people are not let out of Hell.

That prison can ONLY be purgatory!
 
Protestant101 said:
To see a reference point for this thread; please see Post #532: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=238010&page=36

I would like to discuss more specifics regarding this claim about “purgatory” and how the generally accepted Protestant Canon falls “short” with this doctrine. I am interested in this separate topic, as my major questions will be with the doctrine of Purgatory itself, and how this doctrine is related to the Bible.

By saying: "“You, due to your “incomplete” Bible, reject the concept of purgatory and praying for the dead,” are Catholics here telling me that “Purgatory” is found only in the Apocrypha? Why are you saying: “because of your incomplete Bible?”
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ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT
my.homewithgod.com/gertrude/purgatory/
trumpetersmission.com/messages_purgatory.htm
 
JonNC said:
Charlie,
Luther said,

From my perspective, the big issue was the use of indulgences in order to free loved ones from purgatory. Lutherans believe that Christ’s death and resurrection are sufficient to “purge” the penitent.

Jon
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Hi Jon,

Hope you don’t mind a couple questions.
Do Lutherans believe there is a “purging” of remaining sins/sinfulness that takes place after death - before one can enter heaven?

If so, how does the “purging”, as experienced by the deceased sinner, differ in Lutheran teaching from what is taught in Catholicism?

Nita
 
Protestant101 said:
To see a reference point for this thread; please see Post #532: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=238010&page=36

I would like to discuss more specifics regarding this claim about “purgatory” and how the generally accepted Protestant Canon falls “short” with this doctrine. I am interested in this separate topic, as my major questions will be with the doctrine of Purgatory itself, and how this doctrine is related to the Bible.
"
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When Lazarus goes to the busom of Abraham and the rich man dies he goes to a place of torment. Where is this place? In hell there is no love and there is no hope. The dead rich man calls to heaven and makes two requests. He asks that Lazarus come put a rop of water on his tongue. He has hope for relief of his suffering. Then he asks that someone go warn his brothers so they will not also fall into this place. He wills the good of his brothers. He loves them. Those in hell do not hope you go to heaven and avoid hell. They hate you and want you to suffer as they do. They do not try to comfort one another in their suffering in hell. There is no comfort or relief there in the unquenchable lake of fire and those souls who are there know they will never have any comfort or relief. So where was the rich man?
 
In light of a discussion of purgatory, comparing the beliefs
of two broad sectors of Christianity, I did wish to note the
following:

There’s nothing contrary to common sense about a period
of purgation, after death.
I think the Judaic view of same is more in keeping with the mercy of God.
This thought notes that a period of purification may last up to a year.
[This is why *kadish is prayed for 12 months.]

As far as I can note, Judaic thought leaves much undefined,
which, to me, respects the mystery of Godhead.

It was all the “over-defining” that brought on the Reformation
to begin with. The whole thing was begun because of
the hubris of Catholic theologians, over time, who thought
to trespass on the sacred ground that belongs to Godhead.

As Moses was told by God to remove his sandals,
before approaching the burning bush, the ‘definers’
of doctrine paid the price for the hubritic act of not removing
the ‘sandals of intellect,’ and embracing the mystery of the sacred.
Christendom was now divided on two fronts.
[Orthodoxy was understandably shocked by Rome’s
definition of the “procession” of the Trinity.]

The crowning moment, in the saga of ‘indulgences’
was the Dominican Tetzel’s agents, calling out the ditty:

The moment the coin in the coffer rings
A soul from purgatory springs.

No, the RCC never taught that, officially, as doctrine.

Yet this is what happens, when hubris rules the day.
The Church “opened the door” to those who would
caricaturize this practice, over the centuries.

reen12
 
Nita said:
Hi Jon,

Hope you don’t mind a couple questions.
Do Lutherans believe there is a “purging” of remaining sins/sinfulness that takes place after death - before one can enter heaven?

If so, how does the “purging”, as experienced by the deceased sinner, differ in Lutheran teaching from what is taught in Catholicism?

Nita
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Hi Nita,
I’m not sure how to answer the part about “experienced”, but I’ll try on the rest.
My understanding (correct me if I’m wrong), is that in the Catholic view Christ’s sacrifice relieves the guilt of sins, allowing one to enter heaven, but not the temporal punishment for those sins. Yes?
Lutherans would say His sacrifice does both at that time.

Jon
 
Protestant101 said:
By saying: "“You, due to your “incomplete” Bible, reject the concept of purgatory and praying for the dead,” are Catholics here telling me that “Purgatory” is found only in the Apocrypha? Why are you saying: “because of your incomplete Bible?”
Click to expand...
The question is fundamentally flawed. It assumes the bible is the source of Christian doctrine, but it is not. Hint - there was Christian doctrine before the New Testament was ever written.

Where Purgatory is found is in the complete Deposit of Faith given by God to the Church.
 
Even if one didn’t hold to Tradition, you can still see purgatory in the Protestant Canon.

Without getting specific to verses, we know:
  1. We are prone to sin on earth.
  2. When united with Jesus in heaven we will not be prone to sin.
  3. A transformation must take place at death. i.e. purgatory (from the root: “purge”, that is get rid of the sinful remnants)
 
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