Protestant Questions About Purgatory

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VociMike said:
The question is fundamentally flawed. It assumes the bible is the source of Christian doctrine, but it is not. Hint - there was Christian doctrine before the New Testament was ever written.

Where Purgatory is found is in the complete Deposit of Faith given by God to the Church.
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Conversely; the question is actually in context though. It is based on the Catholic presumption of an “incomplete” Bible which is inherent in the doctrine of “Purgatory.” Therefore, atleast in your post, my question is partially answered: Catholics do teach that the Protestant Canon is “incomplete” and they give “Purgatory” as an example of one of their teachings which would be a good example of a doctrine which cannot be substantiated by the protestant Canon, and needs other materials to qualify it.

My future posts will build on exploration of this and related aspects of this topic.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Even if one didn’t hold to Tradition, you can still see purgatory in the Protestant Canon.

Without getting specific to verses, we know:
  1. We are prone to sin on earth.
  2. When united with Jesus in heaven we will not be prone to sin.
  3. A transformation must take place at death. i.e. purgatory (from the root: “purge”, that is get rid of the sinful remnants)
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This “transformation” must actually take place before death, according to the Bible. Please supply some evidence of your point #3. :eek:
 
Protestant101 said:
This “transformation” must actually take place before death, according to the Bible. Please supply some evidence of your point #3. :eek:
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You mean everyone who goes to heaven reaches total perfection from sin while on earth? You are saying that you are now as you will be in the afterlife?? You have achieved immunity to sin???

Evidence of point #3 is necessary because the first 2 are Scriptural. (see 1 John 1:8, Rev 21:27, and others…). (And that’s not even to look at the verses that more directly point to the afterlife purgation. (1 Cor 3:15, Heb 12:23, etc…)
 
Cathdefender said:
In the Protestant bible, there are 7 books “fewer” than the Catholic bible. Purgatory is in the book of Maccabees which Protestants do not read.
Remember that the bible was compiled by the Catholic church, therefore her bible is untouched, protected, and preserved over the centuries.:bible1:
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Those 7 books were written in Greek not Hebrew the langauge of the OT, therefore the authenticity of those books in under question. Why weren’t they written in Hebrew like all the other Old Testament books?
 
Sublime_Prince said:
Those 7 books were written in Greek not Hebrew the langauge of the OT, therefore the authenticity of those books in under question. Why weren’t they written in Hebrew like all the other Old Testament books?
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I’m sorry, that is a myth. Sirach, Judith, 1 Maccabees at the least were in Hebrew as discovered at Qumran.

But regardless…as I’ve researched, the language had moved to Greek under the rule of Alexander, hence also the move to the Greek Septuagint. The human language of the written Word is not the factor to determine divine inspiration. Why would such a rule even come to mind when part of Jewish history included a large duration of Greek speech.
 
reen12 said:
As Moses was told by God to remove his sandals, before approaching the burning bush, the ‘definers’
of doctrine paid the price for the hubritic act of not removing
the ‘sandals of intellect,’ and embracing the mystery of the sacred. Christendom was now divided on two fronts.
[Orthodoxy was understandably shocked by Rome’s
definition of the “procession” of the Trinity.
Amen reen! 👋
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Sublime_Prince said:
Those 7 books were written in Greek not Hebrew the langauge of the OT, therefore the authenticity of those books in under question. Why weren’t they written in Hebrew like all the other Old Testament books?
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Actually the authenticity of these books is not in question regardless of the language used.

As demonstrated at THIS SITE there are numerous references to the books both in Scripture itself and also in the writings of the ECF’s.

I posted this on a Thread called “Missing Books”. It’s a composite of two posts actually.
Now consider this. The Bible canon was established by councils of bishops and confirmed several times by several councils of bishops over time.
The Books were removed by a single man. So far as I know there was no council of learned men of the Protestant Reformation who met to discuss and determine the validity of the books.
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Now let’s forget about all the arguing about the Hebrew canon and the Septuigent for a moment.
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If one believes that the Holy Spirit Guided the compiling and canonization of the Bible, isn’t it logical to assume that He got it right in the first place?
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Isn’t it logical to assume that since multiple Church Councils affirmed and re-affirmed the validity of these books in the Bible (All before the reformation) that this is the will of the Holy Spirit?
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If one rejects this, and says the councils - The origional councils - Got it wrong, then how can one place ANY faith in ANY of the Books of the Bible?
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Peace
James
 
Sublime_Prince said:
Those 7 books were written in Greek not Hebrew the langauge of the OT, therefore the authenticity of those books in under question. Why weren’t they written in Hebrew like all the other Old Testament books?
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I would be worried about not having them in your bible vs. what language they were written in.:rolleyes:
 
Hisalone said:
There was and still is a Jewish tradition for praying for the dead.
Maccabees does mention it. Jewish tradition always called for two or three witnesses. Purgatory fails this test a test even Christ used.
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Huh?? What?? No comprendo… What test?? Does every scripture need 2 or 3 witnesses (whatever you mean by witnesses…)… Please explain…
In any case Maccabees Jewish tradition were all before the crucifiction and the resurrection of Christ, Christ who paid it all. The sufficency of the cross makes purgatory impossible.
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Well, there are many other scriptures that support Purgatory:

St. Matthew 18:23 speaks of forgiveness being taken back (as it were)… and “torments”… and about how the person will be tormented until the last debt ispaid…

st. Matthew 12:32 speaks of forgiveness tht occurs in the next age…

1 Cor. 3:13 speaks of being saved Yet as through fire…

rev 21:27 (?) speaks of how no unclean thing will enter heaven… You can be a Christian but have the stain of sin on your soul… No stain of sin is going to get into Heaven, where everything is pure and perfect… so there has to be a place where the soul is cleansed… What if a person dies before he is finished “wroking out his salvation with fear and trembling”? (Phil 2:12)… Does God just say, “Too bad, you’re out of Here…” and toss him into Hell…

Not the God i believe in… 🙂
 
VociMike said:
The question is fundamentally flawed. It assumes the bible is the source of Christian doctrine, but it is not. Hint - there was Christian doctrine before the New Testament was ever written.

Where Purgatory is found is in the complete Deposit of Faith given by God to the Church.
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Very good point… Why didn’t i think of that?? Oh, that’s right… i didn’t think about it because Protestants generally don’t trust anyting but the Bible… but wait - they don’t even do that sometimes…:eek:

If they did, it seems they would accept the passages about Purgatory (cleansing)… 1 Cor 3:13, St. Mtt 12:32 and 18:23, etc…

and if all Protestants took the Bible (and only the Bible) literally, they wouldn’t accept such untenable notions as Once Saved Always Saved… definitely not scriptural… (thankfully not al Protestants believe that…).

And some add words to the Bible when they say that in order to get into Heaven, you must “accept Christ as personal savior”… words found nowhere in the Bible…
 
distracted said:
If they did, it seems they would accept the passages about Purgatory (cleansing)… 1 Cor 3:13, St. Mtt 12:32 and 18:23, etc…
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Have you read 1 Cor 3:13? Then read it again. It says that fire tests, not cleanses. It is nothing like Purgatory.
 
distracted said:
and if all Protestants took the Bible (and only the Bible) literally, they wouldn’t accept such untenable notions as Once Saved Always Saved… definitely not scriptural… (thankfully not al Protestants believe that…).
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Only Calvinists believe once saved always saved.
 
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