Protestant Questions About Purgatory

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Cathdefender-
As a protestant Prot101 does not have 1 & 2 Maccabees in his bible. The Catholic Church declared them canonical in 397 and there was no problem with the books until Martin Luther took them out of his bible in the late 16th century.

Prot101 does not recognize 1& 2 Maccabees as inspired so it would be pointless to show him even though it shows the beliefs and practices of the Jewish people up to 100 years before the coming of Christ which included the practice of praying and offering sacrifice for those who had died.

Now for Prot101 objection to the Church interpreting of purgatory from 1 Cor 3:

1 Cor 3:[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, **though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

Prot101

Where is this place where one will suffer loss, as through fire, but will be saved?

Heaven? Do you honestly believe that anyone suffers loss in heaven?

Hell? Do you honestly think anyone in hell is saved?

Hmmm… Must be somewhere else.

Matthew 12:[32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age **or in the age to come. **

Doesn’t this imply that there will be forgiveness in the age to come?

Does anyone need forgiveness in heaven?

Do you believe that anyone once in hell is forgiven?

Matthew 18:[32] Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
[33] and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
[34] And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.
[35] So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Where can you go, that is like jail, until you have paid your debt?

Heaven? Hell?

How do you explain these scripture verses which seem to point to a place other than heaven or hell?
Yes, I am quite aware that they don’t have 1 and 2 Macc in their bibles due to Luther. But if I were him, and know that Luther flung them out, I would go and get a Catholic’s bible, knowing that this bible has never been touched, been preserved throughout the centuries by the Catholic church, AND JUST READ IT.
Is it so hard to do this? Maybe 101 would get a better understanding of this instead of so many pages on this one thread. 🤷 Like Nike says, JUST DO IT.👍
 
, I would go and get a Catholic’s bible, knowing that this bible has never been touched, been preserved throughout the centuries by the Catholic church, AND JUST READ IT.
Is it so hard to do this? :
If i can voice my opinion without being accused of being rude… (??) I think that when a person is THIS resistant to doing this (what you say here)… he could very well be suffering from that most deadly of maladies known as Pride…
 
Yes, I am quite aware that they don’t have 1 and 2 Macc in their bibles due to Luther. But if I were him, and know that Luther flung them out, I would go and get a Catholic’s bible, knowing that this bible has never been touched, been preserved throughout the centuries by the Catholic church, AND JUST READ IT.
Is it so hard to do this? Maybe 101 would get a better understanding of this instead of so many pages on this one thread. 🤷 Like Nike says, JUST DO IT.👍
Actually, if I remember right, I asked P101 about this one time and he said he did have access to the Deuteros - He had access to the Full, Catholic canon.

Peace
James
 
If I’m not mistaken, I don’t think Luther threw out Maccabees. According to this article:
  1. But the seven deuterocanonical books were added at the Council of Trent (1546) in order to justify Catholic doctrinal inventions.
This is a myth that always comes up but is simple to answer. At the Council of Rome in 382, the Church decided upon a canon of 46 Old Testament books and 27 in the New Testament. This decision was ratified by the councils at Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), II Nicea (787), Florence (1442), and Trent (1546).
Further, if Catholics added the deuterocanonical books in 1546, then Martin Luther beat us to the punch: He included them in his first German translation, published the Council of Trent. They can also be found in the first King James Version (1611) and in the first Bible ever printed, the Guttenberg Bible (a century before Trent). In fact, these books were included in almost every Bible until the Edinburgh Committee of the British Foreign Bible Society excised them in 1825. Until then, they had been included at least in an appendix of Protestant Bibles. It is historically demonstrable that Catholics did not add the books, Protestants took them out.
Luther had a tendency to grade the Bible according to his preferences. In his writings on the New Testament, he noted that the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were inferior to the rest, and they followed “the certain, main books of the New Testament.” In 1519, this same attitude fueled his debate against Johannes Eck on the topic of purgatory. Luther undermined Eck’s proof text of 2 Maccabees 12 by devaluing the deuterocanonical books as a whole. He argued that the New Testament authors had never quoted from the seven books, so they were in a different class than the rest of the Bible.
It’s important to get our facts right when defending the Faith. 🙂
 
It is my understanding that the Church always accepted the 7 deutero-cannonical books…
So far as I know, you are correct. There were persons in the Church who held “dissenting opinions” as it were, Jerome has been brought up lately, but the persons subjegated their personal opinions to the greater good and authority of the Church.

As an aside to this. I think it’s interesting that The Church chose the larger canon, a broader more liberalized canon if you will, and in effect allowed for greater flexibility in beliefs, studies etc. On the other hand the Protestants, in choosing the shorter canon have demonstrated the desire for a naroower and more exlusive view of Scripture.

Peace
James
 
Prot 101 says:
But I do have reasons for thinking that Catholics are taught by their leadership to lessen the authority of the Bible; to denigrate it to the point where it does not have the authority that God intended it to have in the Church; and God did intend that the Bible have FULL unhindered authority in His Church; and in His people. There are so many places where "the [Catholic] Church can be shown to minimize the Bible’s authority: Papal Rome Against The Bible
To which I respond:

**I am “always” amused at the fact that protestants always revert to using “propaganda” foisted on the gullible… who make the foolish decision to believe it…

The Catholic Church has NEVER taught or even tried to teach anyone that the Bible was less important than it is. The Catholic Church is built on “Scripture”…

Considering that back in the days of the so-called prohibitions… the majority, the vast majority of the people were illiterate…and Bibles were hand copied…not to mention expensive…one can only shudder at what would have happened to a Bible if they got a hold of it.

Further…in so far as prohibitions against translating the Bible into different languages… Look at what has happened over the years. Even the “protestants” can’t agree on “which Bible is the bestest one”!!

Actually, I tend to think that the longer and the harder they rail and scream about the Bible…and what not…the more they themselves denigrate its authority…because most of the protestants today think that they are going to Burger King to get their religion…they want to have it their way…and they think that they can pick and choose the ingredients to make their “whopper” up with.

The Catholic Church over the years has been proven to be the one Christian Church that has been steadfast in its teachings with regards to the Bible…and has always been resistant to change for any reason. Appeasement of the “masses” (as in people) has not been of great concern to the Holy See.**

Prot 101… I really don’t think you come here to “contrast, compare, or even discuss”…your whole use of this forum thus far, IMHO…has been to do nothing more than “denigrate” the Catholic Church…nothing more, nothing less. Not much of a claim to fame.
 
One footnote to all of this…one of the big reasons why protestants can’t understand Catholic Theology…is because their Bibles have been “stripped” of important books. They don’t have all the information…

A second big reason… If you remember the issue of “WINE”. They will tell you that it is “unscriptural” to drink wine, yet nowhere in the Bible does it say that. All references, to include a passage in the Book of Wisdom include the word “excess”… They will then fall back and say…“wine” was really “grape juice” or something else. They then say its a “matter of interpretation”. But there own Bible says “wine”…not grape juice. Its “revisionistic thinking”…almost Marxist/Leninist in its intent.

The third big reason…They do not want to agree. They will refuse to agree. Why? Because to agree with Catholicism is to DENY the basis of their theological existence!! They are trained not to agree, just as they spend more time learning about “what is wrong with Catholicism” than what is right with them. Its a tenet of their faith system…and failing to adhere to that silly tenet…is to deny their very religious dogma.

I can remember when I was a child…everyone, including protestants said divorce was against God’s word…nowadays you have protestants saying there is nothing “biblical” against divorce, and these are so called Fundamentalists and Evangelicals… some of whom actually believe that they have the right and ability to “judge others”…because they “have the mind of God”… Can you imagine the prideful arrogance that breeds that mentality?

Frankly…I think its frightening.
 
As an aside to this. I think it’s interesting that The Church chose the larger canon, a broader more liberalized canon if you will, and in effect allowed for greater flexibility in beliefs, studies etc. On the other hand the Protestants, in choosing the shorter canon have demonstrated the desire for a naroower and more exlusive view of Scripture.

Peace
James
Wow… I’m so surprised…
 
Lil,

Do you think all the Old Testament stories, dozens of them, where God had animals killed, roasted, boiled, and eaten, as in the Passover meal, but many other instances as well were satanic? Was Moses too stupid to realize that commanding the Jews to kill and eat animals not in touch with God that he would do something so evil? What about Peter’s revelation to kill and eat the animals. What about the current pope and all the popes whoever lived being carnivores. Does God protect them from teaching doctrinal error, but leave them igonroant on this satanic practice of eating corpses?
I am not disputing the Old Testament. But I have in mind all the diseases now known to man from eating meat.

It may well have been the case that primitive man knew no better! So God took him where he was at, not where God would like him to be. I have in mind the Lord’s teaching: “there is much I still want to say to you but it would be too much for you now!” Jn 16:12. The Lord goes on to say that the Spirit will teach us, which is precisely Catholic teaching about the ‘deposit of faith’. So why not too about issues such as killing and eating corpses? We now live in a more enlightened age. 🙂
 
If you want to learn about somebody’s life should you go talk to their digruntle neighbor who just moved in or go talk to their neighbor that’s lived beside them their whole life?

SD
neither… i would go to his wife…

and children…😃
 
I am not disputing the Old Testament. But I have in mind all the diseases now known to man from eating meat.
for one thing, no one knows exactly what causes each and every disease… Heck, even the diseases we know about … the causes are controversial… For example… Dr. used to think that eating too much meat caused high cholesterol and that high choles was bad 4 u… Now they are finding that people with the higher chol are living longer… Used to think butter was un-healthy, now find that it is not… same w/ eggs… And did u know that there are poisonous substances in many “edible” plants, such as cabbage and spinach. Eating too much spinach (raw) can cause gall stones or kidney stones… (can’t recall which)… And why do no vegetarians ever respond to the point i have made often that ofthose who live to 100 & beyond not One is vegetarian… Vegetarians usually don’t live beyond the age of 70. Vegans probably don’t live beyond 55 (depending on how long they have been vegan. Fortunately, while growing up, their parents fed them meat)…
. So why not too about issues such as killing and eating corpses? We now live in a more enlightened age. 🙂
because it wasn’t of interest, much less importance, to God… He commanded the Israelites to kill and eat the sacrifice… Are you saying God ws “satanic”??

What religion are you??
 
I am not disputing the Old Testament. But I have in mind all the diseases now known to man from eating meat.

It may well have been the case that primitive man knew no better! So God took him where he was at, not where God would like him to be. I have in mind the Lord’s teaching: “there is much I still want to say to you but it would be too much for you now!” Jn 16:12. The Lord goes on to say that the Spirit will teach us, which is precisely Catholic teaching about the ‘deposit of faith’. So why not too about issues such as killing and eating corpses? We now live in a more enlightened age. 🙂
With all due respect to your choice not to eat meat, I must say that I have heard hundreds, if not thousands of news items proving and disproving this health connection and that one.
When I meet a 200 year old person I’ll consider going on hteir diet.

As it stands, regardless of what we eat ,we will all die to this life and stand before the Lord at some point. I really doubt that He will be asking us what we ate.

Peace
James
 
Purgatory is in the bible in the kjv

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Now as for another place then hell for the lost Lets see what the bible has to say.

Psa 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

Psa 49:7 None [of them] **can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: **

Psa 49:8 ** (For the redemption of their soul [is] precious, and it ceaseth for ever:) **

Let God be true and every man a lier.

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ **once
for all. **

Hbr 10:11 ¶** And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: **

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
 
In light of a discussion of purgatory, comparing the beliefs
of two broad sectors of Christianity, I did wish to note the
following:

There’s nothing contrary to common sense about a period
of purgation, after death.
True. And it is also scriptural
reen:
I think the Judaic view of same is more in keeping with the mercy of God.
This thought notes that a period of purification may last up to a year.
[This is why *kadish is prayed for 12 months.]
As far as I can note, Judaic thought leaves much undefined,
which, to me, respects the mystery of Godhead.

Jews don’t have the fullness of revelation. So they by definition leave much undefined.

With respect to knowledge of God and definitions

our first pope says the following
:

2 Pet 1:

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Do you see how high on the list knowledge is? Did you see that it must increase along with all the other attributes on the list. It’s not either/or, It’s not an option, but a must. Otherwise one is ineffective, nearsighted or even worse blind to truth.
reen:
It was all the “over-defining” that brought on the Reformation
to begin with. The whole thing was begun because of
the hubris of Catholic theologians, over time, who thought
to trespass on the sacred ground that belongs to Godhead.
You’ve bought into myths, not truth
reen:
As Moses was told by God to remove his sandals,
before approaching the burning bush, the ‘definers’
of doctrine paid the price for the hubritic act of not removing
the ‘sandals of intellect,’ and embracing the mystery of the sacred.
Christendom was now divided on two fronts.
[Orthodoxy was understandably shocked by Rome’s
definition of the “procession” of the Trinity.]

The filioque has its own multiple threads. Check them out if you are that interested.

Attacking intellect as hubris and pitting intellect against mysticism is condemned by Peter.

The Orthodox as a rule attack scholastics, intellect, and increasing knowledge, because as Bp Ware says in his book Orthodox Church, the Orthodox for most of their existence were under Muslim rule. If they wanted to increase knowledge, they had to come to the West.
reen:
The crowning moment, in the saga of ‘indulgences’
was the Dominican Tetzel’s agents, calling out the ditty:

The moment the coin in the coffer rings
A soul from purgatory springs.

No, the RCC never taught that, officially, as doctrine.

Then it should stop…right? But you keep it going because…?
reen:
Yet this is what happens, when hubris rules the day.
The Church “opened the door” to those who would
caricaturize this practice, over the centuries.

reen12
Most of your post is caricature
 
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