Protestant Questions About Purgatory

[SD_Catholic]

But I do have reasons for thinking that Catholics are taught by their leadership to lessen the authority of the Bible; to denigrate it to the point where it does not have the authority that God intended it to have in the Church; and God did intend that the Bible have FULL unhindered authority in His Church; and in His people. There are so many places where "the [Catholic] Church can be shown to minimize the Bible’s authority: Papal Rome Against The Bible

Well there’s most of your trouble… your reasons for thinking these things is that you use anti-Catholic sources to gain your knowledge about Catholicism… Unfortunately you are looking for writings that support your opinions instead of looking for the truth. If you want to learn about what the Catholic Church teaches than why not go to a Catholic sight to learn… Almost anything can be taken out of context and twisted to mean something else eek: … shocker I know).

If you want to learn about somebody’s life should you go talk to their digruntle neighbor who just moved in or go talk to their neighbor that’s lived beside them their whole life?

SD

 

[JRKH]

But I do have reasons for thinking that Catholics are taught by their leadership to lessen the authority of the Bible; to denigrate it to the point where it does not have the authority that God intended it to have in the Church; and God did intend that the Bible have FULL unhindered authority in His Church; and in His people. There are so many places where "the [Catholic] Church can be shown to minimize the Bible’s authority: Papal Rome Against The Bible

Protestant101
I want to let your know that I have started a new thread on this topic over HERE on the Apologetics board. I did not want to derail this thread any more than it already is.

If anyone wishes to comment further on this “denigration” issue, please do so there

Peace
James

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101
I want to let your know that I have started a new thread on this topic over HERE on the Apologetics board. I did not want to derail this thread any more than it already is.

If anyone wishes to comment further on this “denigration” issue, please do so there

Peace
James

Well; from my viewpoint, I see a gross denigration of scripture, when it comes into contact with Roman Catholic Church authority, as it supposedly pertains to purgatory. I have quite a few more questions about this subject, so I am unlikely to get involved in any other topics at CA. But I will say that your apologetics there are very typical, and not unexpected.

But getting back to purgatory, there is nothing to prove it in the Bible. Many Catholics here have tried to claim the scripture twistings of “scripturecatholic.com” as “proof” that purgatory is in the Bible; but what I’d like to see is more whys and hows answered about those scriptures; especially 1 Cor.3. I have been studying this wonderful passage, and it doesn’t say a word about Purgatory. Neither the word “purgatory” nor the concept of purgatory can be found within this chapter of the Bible.

Also, Catholics appear to be at odds and not united on the subject. Some of you go so far as to say purgatory is not a place, some say that it is. Most of you desperately clutch at a scripture verse or two to try and "prove this doctrine to Protestants from the Bible, but I would be interested to see official Catholic teachings/writings, about the specific verses in 1 Cor.3 that Catholics like to use to “prove” purgatory.

 

[JRKH]

Well; from my viewpoint, I see a gross denigration of scripture, when it comes into contact with Roman Catholic Church authority, as it supposedly pertains to purgatory. **I have quite a few more questions about this subject, so I am unlikely to get involved in any other topics at CA. ** But I will say that your apologetics there are very typical, and not unexpected.

But getting back to purgatory, there is nothing to prove it in the Bible. Many Catholics here have tried to claim the scripture twistings of “scripturecatholic.com” as “proof” that purgatory is in the Bible; but what I’d like to see is more whys and hows answered about those scriptures; especially 1 Cor.3. I have been studying this wonderful passage, and it doesn’t say a word about Purgatory. Neither the word “purgatory” nor the concept of purgatory can be found within this chapter of the Bible.

Also, Catholics appear to be at odds and not united on the subject. Some of you go so far as to say purgatory is not a place, some say that it is. Most of you desperately clutch at a scripture verse or two to try and "prove this doctrine to Protestants from the Bible, but I would be interested to see official Catholic teachings/writings, about the specific verses in 1 Cor.3 that Catholics like to use to “prove” purgatory.

How can you have “Quite a few more questions” about purgatory since you 've already decided that “there is nothing to prove it in the Bible”? You are only restating your position. The teachings by the Church will not Change and the evidences will not change.

Pehaps we do seem less than united on the subject, but that really boils down to trying to use different ways to express things in order to explain them in ways someone else will understand.

As to the other thread, and the article you linked. I’ll borrow your phrase. Nothing in that article Proves that the Catholic Church denigrates the Bible.

Peace
James

 

[Protestant101]

How can you have “Quite a few more questions” about purgatory since you 've already decided that

I’ll borrow your phrase. Nothing in that article Proves that the Catholic Church denigrates the Bible.Peace
James

Since when did you play the copycat of a protestant? LOL, you can borrow my phrases anytime my friend.

Obviously, like you, I have a position on various doctrines, including the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. If I say I have more questions, it is up to you whether or not to accept that statement; but I did begin to broach something specific, which I see you have conveniently missed the boat on. (you must have been waiting for the train), and one of my many questions about purgatory has to do with 1 Cor.3, and the texts therein that Roman Catholics like to use from there to “prove” purgatory.

Can you supply an answer to those questions?

 

[Protestant101]

Nothing in that article Proves that the Catholic Church denigrates the Bible. Peace
James

Actually, there is plenty right here in this thread to show a gross dismissal of clear Bible Facts.

May this discussion continue, in the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Protestant101]

Very nicely Played P101. Now you get to be the “wounded party”.

What we want is for you to engage in debate in a sincere and respectful way.

Peace
James

I am nowhere near “wounded” at all! Just making an observation.

I am very sincere and respectful. Just ask my wife!! If I am ever “wounded” by you or anyone else on this forum; i will be sure to say so publicly so that you don’t have to keep struggling to second-guess my character from just a few internet postings which you apparently abhor.

 

[wanner47]

Here you go, Protestant101. An article practically tailor-written for folks just like you.

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?

By the way, regarding this comment:

Actually, there is plenty right here in this thread to show a gross dismissal of clear Bible Facts.

May this discussion continue, in the Spirit of Christ.

Firstly, I find it hard to believe you don’t see the irony of those two statements together.

Secondly, about the “gross dismissal of clear Bible facts” – how’re the living conditions in that glass house of yours?

 

[Protestant101]

Here you go, Protestant101. An article practically tailor-written for folks just like you.

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?

Can you answer my questions above on 1 Cor.3? I see the above article you linked to mentions only two of the verses in that chapter, and very cursory mentioning at that.

 

[wanner47]

Can you answer my questions above on 1 Cor.3?

The article that I just linked does (which you would have found out if you’d bothered to read it)!

CATHOLIC: Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

OBJECTOR: You said we need to interpret verses of the Bible in context, but you left out verse 13: “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.” You see it speaks about “the Day.” That means the Day of Judgment, not some intermediate state of purgatory.

CATHOLIC: Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about, so it would be arbitrary to limit it to the final Day of Judgment. I take it that we both believe in a personal judgment after death and a general judgment at the end of history.

I advise reading the ENTIRE article to put things in the proper context, of course.

By the way, I notice that you have once again dodged the “How did the Church use the Bible in 107 A.D.” question after your earlier assumptions were proved false. Care to give it another shot?

 

[Michael_Francis]

**Please remain on the topic and do not depart from it. This thread is about the doctrine of Purgatory and not a platform for allegations that the Catholic Church denigrates the Bible. If you wish to allege that or debate another issue then the Forum Rules ***specifically direct that that new topic be addressed in a new thread of its own.

*If this thread departs from the topic again it will be closed.
MF

 

[Protestant101]

By the way, I notice that you have once again dodged the “How did the Church use the Bible in 107 A.D.” question after your earlier assumptions were proved false. Care to give it another shot?

Apparently you don’t see too far. try posts 357 & 358. Perhaps your problem is that you don’t like the Bible answer to your challenges?

 

[wanner47]

Apparently you don’t see too far. try posts 357 & 358. Perhaps your problem is that you don’t like the Bible answer to your challenges?

My “problem” is that your posts were soundly rebutted by historical evidence, and I haven’t seen your response to said evidence.

 

[distracted]

II don’t believe that any church has the authority to add purgatory to the great doctrines of the Bible.

I don’t either. But the Church has the authority (given by Christ - St. Matthew 16:18, etc.) to explain doctrines that have been around since Christ and before Christ. Purgatory was something the Jews (OT) believed in… The Protestatns took out 7 books from the Bible… One was Maccabbees, where (12:45) it speaks of praying for the dead, “that they be loosed from their sins”…
It is not the Catholic Church’s fault that Luther removed those books… (although She gets blamed for his behavior all the time). Luther chose to do as he did… I believe he was possessed by the devil… If you read teh book i read, u would probably think the same thing (except that you wouldn’t because it was written by a Catholic priest).

I suppose you just want me to dry up and blow away, but I am not yet sure if this is on my list of things to do.

We Catholics definitely are not going to do that either… The Catholic Church isn’t going to disappear either… Luther tried…

 

[Cathdefender]

Purgatory is not a “Catholic” thing, it is in the bible, the book of Maccabees…

 

[distracted]

But I’ll say it for you…ignorance?

That’s a good one… but it wasn’t the one (or two or so) that i wanted to use…

but i guess it works…

Anti-Christ means just tht ANTI- Christ… Not somewhat anti-Christ or anti-Christ in some doctrines and not in others…

I can see where the anti-Christ would USE the Catholic Church to hide behind… Satan is always disguising himself as an angel of light… but to say that the Church he USES and hides behind is evil… well, that is…

:banghead: :hypno:

Ok… i will settle for ignorant…

 

[distracted]

Catholics are taught by their leadership to lessen the authority of the Bible; to denigrate it to the point where it does not have the authority that God intended it to have in the Church;

i am Catholic and i have my share of “issues” with the Church… but this not and never has been one of them…

A Protestant person once took a survey… He went around to different churches and took account of the time the pastor or others spent actually READING from the Bible… Not interpreting or preaching about the Bible, but reading it…

In the Baptist, the average was about 2% of the time… In some other Protestant church it was 4%… In another, it was 6%…

In the Catholic Church, it was 26%!!!

The Catholic Church is the one that best adheres to the Bible…

 

[Cathdefender]

Remember:
Wherever there is a house of prayer,
The devil builds a chapel there,
And upon my examination,
The latter has the larger congregation.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Cathdefender-
As a protestant Prot101 does not have 1 & 2 Maccabees in his bible. The Catholic Church declared them canonical in 397 and there was no problem with the books until Martin Luther took them out of his bible in the late 16th century.

Prot101 does not recognize 1& 2 Maccabees as inspired so it would be pointless to show him even though it shows the beliefs and practices of the Jewish people up to 100 years before the coming of Christ which included the practice of praying and offering sacrifice for those who had died.

Now for Prot101 objection to the Church interpreting of purgatory from 1 Cor 3:

1 Cor 3:[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, **though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

Prot101

Where is this place where one will suffer loss, as through fire, but will be saved?

Heaven? Do you honestly believe that anyone suffers loss in heaven?

Hell? Do you honestly think anyone in hell is saved?

Hmmm… Must be somewhere else.

Matthew 12:[32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age **or in the age to come. **

Doesn’t this imply that there will be forgiveness in the age to come?

Does anyone need forgiveness in heaven?

Do you believe that anyone once in hell is forgiven?

Matthew 18:[32] Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
[33] and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
[34] And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.
[35] So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Where can you go, that is like jail, until you have paid your debt?

Heaven? Hell?

How do you explain these scripture verses which seem to point to a place other than heaven or hell?

 

[JRKH]

Cathdefender-
As a protestant Prot101 does not have 1 & 2 Maccabees in his bible. The Catholic Church declared them canonical in 397 and there was no problem with the books until Martin Luther took them out of his bible in the late 16th century.

Prot101 does not recognize 1& 2 Maccabees as inspired so it would be pointless to show him even though it shows the beliefs and practices of the Jewish people up to 100 years before the coming of Christ which included the practice of praying and offering sacrifice for those who had died.

Now for Prot101 objection to the Church interpreting of purgatory from 1 Cor 3:

1 Cor 3:[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, **though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

Prot101

Where is this place where one will suffer loss, as through fire, but will be saved?

Heaven? Do you honestly believe that anyone suffers loss in heaven?

Hell? Do you honestly think anyone in hell is saved?

Hmmm… Must be somewhere else.

Matthew 12:[32] And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age **or in the age to come. **

Doesn’t this imply that there will be forgiveness in the age to come?

Does anyone need forgiveness in heaven?

Do you believe that anyone once in hell is forgiven?

Matthew 18:[32] Then his lord summoned him and said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
[33] and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
[34] And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.
[35] So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Where can you go, that is like jail, until you have paid your debt?

Heaven? Hell?

How do you explain these scripture verses which seem to point to a place other than heaven or hell?

GreyPilgram,
Very Nicely, succinctly and logically put together.
Thanks.

Peace
James