Protestant Reformation VS Church DE-formation?

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robdaddyf

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I would appreciate your thoughts about this article if you’re willing to take the time to read it…I think it could open up many interesting conversations. Thanks in advance…just click the link. Please don’t be afraid to be bold and state your opinion…and please don’t get offended when challenged…I think this can be a great discussion starter.

newadvent.org/cathen/12700b.htm
 
Uh…thats a lot of history…what in particular are you interested in talking about?
 
The little paragraph on Henry VIII, and his quest for a decree of nullity, re: his union with Catherine of Aragon, is cartoon history.

GKC
 
Uh…thats a lot of history…what in particular are you interested in talking about?
More specifically what I’m looking for is folks to read it and give their “take” on it. Maybe just a reaction to it. I realize most people aren’t willing to invest the time to actually read it and if they do read it they might simply answer with flippancy. However, I think there is probably a good deal here that the “average joes” like me aren’t as likely to explore until asked.
 
Because it, like history in general, is far more complicated than that waving of cardboard cutouts suggests. And it’s inaccurate. The problem was not that Clement didn’t recognize Henry’s marriage to Anne. He had, in fact, authorized it, given that the marriage to Catherine was determined to be invalid. It was the failure of Henry’s request for that decree of nullity that caused the problems. What Henry was trying to achieve; a decree of nullity, with respect to his marriage to Catherine, based, in his causa, on the Levitical prohibition (not his strongest case)), and why, were commonplace events in the day. The entire system of matrimonial impediments, dispensations and decrees of nullity were set up, and steadily refined, to permit two things simultaneously: maintaining the Church’s control of matrimony as a sacrament, and permiting the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, as real-politic required. It grew to be a baroque and complicated process, so much so that Trent, Session XXIV, took it in hand and reformed it a little.

The best tale of just what was going on is found in J. J. Scarisbrick’s bio of Hank, HENRY VIII, which I recommend to anyone wanting the details. It’s not pro-Henry, it’s pro-history, and Scarisbrick is RC.

If there are any particular points that might be raised, Horny Hank and his hormones, and the problems he ran into, have been a long-time hobby of mine. Might could help.

GKC
 
Because it, like history in general, is far more complicated than that waving of cardboard cutouts suggests. And it’s inaccurate. The problem was not that Clement didn’t recognize Henry’s marriage to Anne. He had, in fact, authorized it, given that the marriage to Catherine was determined to be invalid. It was the failure of Henry’s request for that decree of nullity that caused the problems. What Henry was trying to achieve; a decree of nullity, with respect to his marriage to Catherine, based, in his causa, on the Levitical prohibition (not his strongest case)), and why, were commonplace events in the day. The entire system of matrimonial impediments, dispensations and decrees of nullity were set up, and steadily refined, to permit two things simultaneously: maintaining the Church’s control of matrimony as a sacrament, and permiting the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, as real-politic required. It grew to be a baroque and complicated process, so much so that Trent, Session XXIV, took it in hand and reformed it a little.

The best tale of just what was going on is found in J. J. Scarisbrick’s bio of Hank, HENRY VIII, which I recommend to anyone wanting the details. It’s not pro-Henry, it’s pro-history, and Scarisbrick is RC.

If there are any particular points that might be raised, Horny Hank and his hormones, and the problems he ran into, have been a long-time hobby of mine. Might could help.

GKC
It seems though (as a mere overview on the subject) that it captured the “sense” of the events though perhaps not the detail that you have amassed. I think many people would be surprised even at the “overview version” and many are likely not even aware of the “why” of the existence of the Church of England. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and broadening of the subject.
 
It seems though (as a mere overview on the subject) that it captured the “sense” of the events though perhaps not the detail that you have amassed. I think many people would be surprised even at the “overview version” and many are likely not even aware of the “why” of the existence of the Church of England. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and broadening of the subject.
You are very welcome, though my exposition is minimalist, at best. It’s way more complex. And I can’t agree that the New Advent paragraph is even minimally accurate. It doesn’t touch on the sense, let alone the detail. If I was grading it, I’d give it a C-. To understand what went on with Henry and his woes, you have to go back in English history around 250 years prior. And you have to look closely at who Catherine’s nephew was. And other stuff. Lots of other stuff.

And the bit about Elizabeth, further down, is a mess, too.

History, as I said, is complicated.

GKC
 
That and atomic bombs, Marvel comics, Tolkien, and aircraft maintenance schedules! 😛
If there are any particular points that might be raised, Horny Hank and his hormones, and the problems he ran into, have been a long-time hobby of mine. Might could help.

GKC
 
A man of many titles…Sovereign Monarch of Great Britain, King of England, His Royal Majesty…His Horniness Hank VIII
Because it, like history in general, is far more complicated than that waving of cardboard cutouts suggests. And it’s inaccurate. The problem was not that Clement didn’t recognize Henry’s marriage to Anne. He had, in fact, authorized it, given that the marriage to Catherine was determined to be invalid. It was the failure of Henry’s request for that decree of nullity that caused the problems. What Henry was trying to achieve; a decree of nullity, with respect to his marriage to Catherine, based, in his causa, on the Levitical prohibition (not his strongest case)), and why, were commonplace events in the day. The entire system of matrimonial impediments, dispensations and decrees of nullity were set up, and steadily refined, to permit two things simultaneously: maintaining the Church’s control of matrimony as a sacrament, and permiting the making and breaking of dynastic marriages, as real-politic required. It grew to be a baroque and complicated process, so much so that Trent, Session XXIV, took it in hand and reformed it a little.

The best tale of just what was going on is found in J. J. Scarisbrick’s bio of Hank, HENRY VIII, which I recommend to anyone wanting the details. It’s not pro-Henry, it’s pro-history, and Scarisbrick is RC.

If there are any particular points that might be raised, Horny Hank and his hormones, and the problems he ran into, have been a long-time hobby of mine. Might could help.

GKC
 
That and atomic bombs, Marvel comics, Tolkien, and aircraft maintenance schedules! 😛
Belloc, Lewis, Sayers, Lunn, Williams. Golden Age mysteries. Certain points of WWII, and other, military history. Science fiction. Sherlock Holmes. Couple of other things.

GKC
 
I would appreciate your thoughts about this article if you’re willing to take the time to read it…I think it could open up many interesting conversations. Thanks in advance…just click the link. Please don’t be afraid to be bold and state your opinion…and please don’t get offended when challenged…
One of the most striking things about the article is its triumphalist tone, which obviously couldn’t have imagined Vatican II happening in a million years:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:
Many new institutions introduced by the Reformers flattered the multitude — e.g. the reception of the chalice by the whole people, the use of the vernacular at Divine service, the popular religious hymns used during services, the reading of the Bible, the denial of the essential difference between clergy and laity.
Yet all of these innovations were later copied by the Catholic Church, with the exception of the latter (although there has been an obvious emphasis on “the priesthood of the faithful”).

The interesting thing about Catholics labeling the Reformation a de-formation is that many of the Reformation ideas were actually taken up by the Roman Church at Vatican II. Whoever thought that the Catholic ‘high altar’ would be replaced by a design that mimicked the Protestant ‘table’? Whereas meanwhile, between Abp. Laud in the 17th century and the Tractarian movement in the 19th, the Church of England was slowly inching away from its Protestant stricture and commendably reestablishing certain aspects of its Catholic character. “De-formation” cuts both ways, apparently.
 
You left out Ray Harrihausen and Hungarian cabinet-making 😛
Belloc, Lewis, Sayers, Lunn, Williams. Golden Age mysteries. Certain points of WWII, and other, military history. Science fiction. Sherlock Holmes. Couple of other things.

GKC
 
Didn’t he also have the Kraken step on the Wittenberg Cathedral and the diaskilos monster attack and deface some Durer paintings? He had the Cyclops steal the original copy of the Augsburg Confession…Clearly Catholic LOL 😃
Ray Harryhausen had the Ymir in 20 Million Miles to Earth destroy Rome. Clearly a Protestant reference.
 
Didn’t he also have the Kraken step on the Wittenberg Cathedral and the diaskilos monster attack and deface some Durer paintings? He had the Cyclops steal the original copy of the Augsburg Confession…Clearly Catholic LOL 😃
The Augsburg Confession? Dude, what were you smoking when you watched the 7th Voyage of Sinbad?? LOL
 
Ray Harryhausen had the Ymir in 20 Million Miles to Earth destroy Rome. Clearly a Protestant reference.
I love the Ymir. And met Ray, years ago.

Haven’t met the Ymir, though. He mainly trashed the Coliseum.

GKC
 
I would appreciate your thoughts about this article if you’re willing to take the time to read it…I think it could open up many interesting conversations. Thanks in advance…just click the link. Please don’t be afraid to be bold and state your opinion…and please don’t get offended when challenged…I think this can be a great discussion starter.

newadvent.org/cathen/12700b.htm
Okay, so it’s another train wreck, but about money this time.
 
Shows how much you know! It was the GOLDEN voyage of Sinbad! LOL…the one with Caroline Munro…ouch oooh-ah! 😃
The Augsburg Confession? Dude, what were you smoking when you watched the 7th Voyage of Sinbad?? LOL
 
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