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TriuneUnity
Guest
Too bad Caroline Munro didn’t have six armsThe living statue of Kali with its six or so arms in Golden Voyage of Sinbad was my favorite. Gotta love Kali! And Caroline Munro…
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Sweet Caroline……she didn’t need six arms. She was blessed already! 
That was quite an outfit! 
That was quite an outfit! Too bad Caroline Munro didn’t have six arms
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robdaddyf
Guest
It does seem that the term “Deformation” makes the most sense as it is true that in order to truly “Reform” something it would need to remain as part of the original and not simply create something “new” out of something old. However, heresy is nothing new in Christian history it would seem.
While not the wording, I agree with the idea that a reform is never finished in division. Confessional Lutherans will tell you that we do remain part of the Church Catholic, and pray for the day when there is reconciliation.
Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I hate to sound cynical because I am as much the idealist you are Jon, but I can’t imagine such a reunion. It seems like light years away. I can’t imagine the Pope suddently declining to claim infallibility anymore to meet the needs of the Lutherans and Anglicans and Orthodox. I can’t imagine the Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans embracing infallibility to meet the Catholics’ needs even more. I can’t imagine the Orthodox putting up with the sola scriptura/sola fide/sola gracia of Lutherans. I can’t imagine common Eucharistic doctrine, Mariological beliefs, the Catholics eliminating indulgences, and so many other things. Christianity is disected and broken. It’s sad. The Catholics without the Orthodox is a tragedy. What a union it would make to bring all these together.
1.) The coherent unity and leadership of Rome
2.) The wonderfully-stubborn Orthodox who keep tradition, worship, history always alive
3.) The Anglicans and their beautiful prayer book, Evensong, their desire to build bridges and their diplomacy coupled with love for Scripture and tradition equally
4.) The Lutherans who passionately love Scripture and take it seriously, clinging to the Word of God and never losing their love for its relevence and inerrency while they love God’s mercy and free grace
I can only imagine how much stronger we’d be as a team than fractured, squabbling, and divided as the secular world around us makes gains. I share your dream, Jon. I just can’t conceive any possibility whatsoever of how that would ever occur…
I think the Beatles have a better chance of resurrecting George and John and getting back together than Christendom coming back together…unfortunately…
1.) The coherent unity and leadership of Rome
2.) The wonderfully-stubborn Orthodox who keep tradition, worship, history always alive
3.) The Anglicans and their beautiful prayer book, Evensong, their desire to build bridges and their diplomacy coupled with love for Scripture and tradition equally
4.) The Lutherans who passionately love Scripture and take it seriously, clinging to the Word of God and never losing their love for its relevence and inerrency while they love God’s mercy and free grace
I can only imagine how much stronger we’d be as a team than fractured, squabbling, and divided as the secular world around us makes gains. I share your dream, Jon. I just can’t conceive any possibility whatsoever of how that would ever occur…
I think the Beatles have a better chance of resurrecting George and John and getting back together than Christendom coming back together…unfortunately…
Hello, my friend.
*11. Regarding the relation of scripture and Tradition, for centuries there seemed to have been a deep difference between Orthodox and Lutheran teaching. Orthodox hear with satisfaction the affirmation of the Lutheran theologians that the formula “sola scriptura” was always intended to point to God’s revelation, God’s saving act through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore to the holy Tradition of the church, as expressed in this paper, against human traditions that darken the authentic teaching in the church.
*
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html
and the Helsinki site above.
Both of these contain evidence that the four communions you mentioned, sharing a common belief in the real presence, may with the Holy Spirit guiding be able to find ways of expressing the Eucharist that joins and doesn’t divide us.
Jon
It is hard to imagine, isn’t it. But the Polly Anna I am…
Didn’t the Pope, when he was Cr. Ratzinger, say something to the effect that Rome could not expect Orthodoxy to accept a level of universal jurisdiction greater than what was in practice prior to the Schism?
helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html
*11. Regarding the relation of scripture and Tradition, for centuries there seemed to have been a deep difference between Orthodox and Lutheran teaching. Orthodox hear with satisfaction the affirmation of the Lutheran theologians that the formula “sola scriptura” was always intended to point to God’s revelation, God’s saving act through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore to the holy Tradition of the church, as expressed in this paper, against human traditions that darken the authentic teaching in the church.
*
It seems to me that Eucharistic doctrinal differences are being overcome. Examples:
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html
and the Helsinki site above.
Both of these contain evidence that the four communions you mentioned, sharing a common belief in the real presence, may with the Holy Spirit guiding be able to find ways of expressing the Eucharist that joins and doesn’t divide us.
Yep. This’ll take some work.
If not now, in Parousia.
Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Hi Jon, mind you I am not trying to be cynical and you make some great points (as always). But the thing is, sad to say, I think there are a lot of folks that like these divisions. There are Orthodox on this forum that are very very triumphalist and brag to death how they are in holy orthodoxy and in a state of pure doctrine and holy sacraments that nobody else has. It’s an exclusive feeling. They hated the papal stuff as former Catholics or Protestants so they go Orthodox. Now that they’re in that group, the idea of reconciling with Rome to them is deplorable. Same thing for some Anglicans. At my Anglican parish here in town there is a strong anti-Rome anti-papal sentiment and they are committed to staying apart. And many Catholics in this forum say they long for reunion but there is absolutely NO compromise and they also have a triumphalist tone at times, a feeling of exclusivism. And of course some Lutherans and other Protestants are the same way. Some even still buy into that silly Pope = antichrist stuff that I know you and other Protestants don’t buy into, knowing it was the hyperbole and rhetoric and anger of the time. It’s like a warfare mentality. Some people in the Pentagon love war. Some in the military industrial complex love war. It’s their livelihood and they need a good Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom war here and there to use the machines of war, keep everything oiled and tuned. Some have a desire to see war. Some have every desire not to. I think Christendom should be reunited, but all would have to give up something and it would take the stuff of miracles. Like you, I long for it. I’m cynical knowing the radical agendas of some, the exclusivist “we’re right, those poor schlameels are hell-bound” triumphalism of others, and the stubbornness of all parties involved. No matter what, I consider you a brother in Christ, probably holier than myself, and I pray we all meet that special destination Christ has promised for us. 
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robdaddyf
Guest
As a former Protestant myself I can say that the papacy is probably the single most problematic reality. That being said I believe it is problematic only insofar as it is misunderstood. On my way to becoming Catholic I encountered many obstacles to the papacy that were not scriptural…not historical and were largely philosophical and, yes, psychological.
Philosophically speaking it is simply hard for some to “reason out” that there COULD be a human leader of the Divine Body of Christ…the Church. The notion of an “every man for himself with the Holy Spirit” seems a bit more feasible to our day and age which, if examined more closely, is still living on the fumes of the (so called) Enlightenment where Man himself became the center of life and no longer the Church and the community of the faithful. People more surely BEGIN with the premise that their “reality is up to them” and therefore how they choose to live is up to them entirely. Therefore what follows is a dislike for hierarchy/structure and anything outside of each (so called) “individual” determining what said “individual” SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO is unthinkable. Of course another misunderstanding when we, as divided and fractured products of the Enlightenment, is that it is “either or” instead of “both and” when it comes to the papacy or hierarchy. Of course the Church does not exist to hinder our development as persons but exists to lead us into the fullness of life…helping us, in fact, conquer ourselves…to learn the freedom of giving up ourselves for the sake of others. The Church stands for us as a beacon, as fuel, as a teacher, trainer and safeguard in which we can learn to more fully love and serve others. Therefore, to Christians, man cannot BE the center of things but only God. God has given us, in the person of the Pope, a pastor NOT a king. He leads by example, by teaching and encouraging us to live holier lives and thus we reject his God given leadership at our own peril. The Pope, to me, is a living symbol of the fact that my life is not my own just as his life has been given entirely for the sake of others…his life of course in a very special way. So, in short, the Pope is a gift and a servant who does not Lord his will over us but truly conforms his own will to that of the Lord and His Church. We were not meant to live as isolated individual private “churches” but are meant to live as one.
Psychologically speaking, it is simply hard to, “imagine” (for some) that the entire Church could be under the guidance of, “one man.” When in reality it is impossible. However, it is the Holy Spirit Himself that has maintained, strengthened and filled each man and therefore the ENTIRE Church throughout the ages. For God, what is impossible? Can it be that God is willing and able to do what He said He was going to do? We have a hard time thinking that there could be “A Church” because we look around at buildings and people who continually speak of something else. First church of this and second separated church of that…we think that because things ARE a certain way that this must be the way things are MEANT to be. This is a foolish idea that we LIKE because to imagine a world of “One Church” is much too difficult. I would suggest that simply because things, on the surface, appear one way does not mean that this suggests things are “as they should be” or some kind of ideal. Frankly, it is easy for me to believe that things ARE NOT the way they should be at present. Surely God has permitted sin to exist…division to exist (which is itself a by-product of sin) so that we might do battle against division and do our utmost to love and therefore allow unity to manifest itself “among us” so the “world might know that you are His disciples.”
The papacy is a gift to all Christians whether they currently accept it or not. It is the Catholic Church that has preserved Truth and Tradition from the beginning. In some ways other faith Traditions have also aided the Catholic Church and some ways hindered. Of course I don’t believe in a “perfect Church” this side of eternity, however, with all of the searching, studying, examining, testing and difficulties I have personally encountered in my process I can most clearly see the will of God for His Church most clearly within the Catholic Church. I pray that others might discover this for themselves but I believe people are resistant for the wrong reasons. Philosophies and Psychological categories which only serve to fracture the Church, simply, can’t be good.
Philosophically speaking it is simply hard for some to “reason out” that there COULD be a human leader of the Divine Body of Christ…the Church. The notion of an “every man for himself with the Holy Spirit” seems a bit more feasible to our day and age which, if examined more closely, is still living on the fumes of the (so called) Enlightenment where Man himself became the center of life and no longer the Church and the community of the faithful. People more surely BEGIN with the premise that their “reality is up to them” and therefore how they choose to live is up to them entirely. Therefore what follows is a dislike for hierarchy/structure and anything outside of each (so called) “individual” determining what said “individual” SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO is unthinkable. Of course another misunderstanding when we, as divided and fractured products of the Enlightenment, is that it is “either or” instead of “both and” when it comes to the papacy or hierarchy. Of course the Church does not exist to hinder our development as persons but exists to lead us into the fullness of life…helping us, in fact, conquer ourselves…to learn the freedom of giving up ourselves for the sake of others. The Church stands for us as a beacon, as fuel, as a teacher, trainer and safeguard in which we can learn to more fully love and serve others. Therefore, to Christians, man cannot BE the center of things but only God. God has given us, in the person of the Pope, a pastor NOT a king. He leads by example, by teaching and encouraging us to live holier lives and thus we reject his God given leadership at our own peril. The Pope, to me, is a living symbol of the fact that my life is not my own just as his life has been given entirely for the sake of others…his life of course in a very special way. So, in short, the Pope is a gift and a servant who does not Lord his will over us but truly conforms his own will to that of the Lord and His Church. We were not meant to live as isolated individual private “churches” but are meant to live as one.
Psychologically speaking, it is simply hard to, “imagine” (for some) that the entire Church could be under the guidance of, “one man.” When in reality it is impossible. However, it is the Holy Spirit Himself that has maintained, strengthened and filled each man and therefore the ENTIRE Church throughout the ages. For God, what is impossible? Can it be that God is willing and able to do what He said He was going to do? We have a hard time thinking that there could be “A Church” because we look around at buildings and people who continually speak of something else. First church of this and second separated church of that…we think that because things ARE a certain way that this must be the way things are MEANT to be. This is a foolish idea that we LIKE because to imagine a world of “One Church” is much too difficult. I would suggest that simply because things, on the surface, appear one way does not mean that this suggests things are “as they should be” or some kind of ideal. Frankly, it is easy for me to believe that things ARE NOT the way they should be at present. Surely God has permitted sin to exist…division to exist (which is itself a by-product of sin) so that we might do battle against division and do our utmost to love and therefore allow unity to manifest itself “among us” so the “world might know that you are His disciples.”
The papacy is a gift to all Christians whether they currently accept it or not. It is the Catholic Church that has preserved Truth and Tradition from the beginning. In some ways other faith Traditions have also aided the Catholic Church and some ways hindered. Of course I don’t believe in a “perfect Church” this side of eternity, however, with all of the searching, studying, examining, testing and difficulties I have personally encountered in my process I can most clearly see the will of God for His Church most clearly within the Catholic Church. I pray that others might discover this for themselves but I believe people are resistant for the wrong reasons. Philosophies and Psychological categories which only serve to fracture the Church, simply, can’t be good.
Scott,Hi Jon, mind you I am not trying to be cynical and you make some great points (as always). But the thing is, sad to say, I think there are a lot of folks that like these divisions. There are Orthodox on this forum that are very very triumphalist and brag to death how they are in holy orthodoxy and in a state of pure doctrine and holy sacraments that nobody else has. It’s an exclusive feeling. They hated the papal stuff as former Catholics or Protestants so they go Orthodox. Now that they’re in that group, the idea of reconciling with Rome to them is deplorable. Same thing for some Anglicans. At my Anglican parish here in town there is a strong anti-Rome anti-papal sentiment and they are committed to staying apart. And many Catholics in this forum say they long for reunion but there is absolutely NO compromise and they also have a triumphalist tone at times, a feeling of exclusivism. And of course some Lutherans and other Protestants are the same way. Some even still buy into that silly Pope = antichrist stuff that I know you and other Protestants don’t buy into, knowing it was the hyperbole and rhetoric and anger of the time. It’s like a warfare mentality. Some people in the Pentagon love war. Some in the military industrial complex love war. It’s their livelihood and they need a good Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom war here and there to use the machines of war, keep everything oiled and tuned. Some have a desire to see war. Some have every desire not to. I think Christendom should be reunited, but all would have to give up something and it would take the stuff of miracles. Like you, I long for it. I’m cynical knowing the radical agendas of some, the exclusivist “we’re right, those poor schlameels are hell-bound” triumphalism of others, and the stubbornness of all parties involved. No matter what, I consider you a brother in Christ, probably holier than myself, and I pray we all meet that special destination Christ has promised for us.
Sometimes CAF can really discuourage those of us who wish to share the Church with each other in unity. Sadly, in my LCMS there are those who seem to fervently desire to maintain division. OTOH, there are leaders throughout Christianity who are seeking it, and I think they are the majority.
What we say here at CAF matters far less than what Church leadership says to each other. I thank God for leaders like Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul before him, as they have opened the doors for dialogue.
Jon
PS Do the Giants make the playoffs this year?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Good lord I might regret this but…maybe…just maybe the Giants make the playoffs…if…
1.) The Dodgers McCourt divorce is such a distraction and the two of them have to sell the team and no good trades are made and they look as bad in regular season as they do in Spring Training
2.) Lincecum can look better than he looks in Spring Training, sheesh
3.) Buster Posey gets called up and plays hardcore
4.) The Rockies don’t spank and humiliate too much
5.) We get more offense this year…jeez.
6.) Jonathan Sanchez makes a solid season effort and looks as good as he did today
7.) Our new guy Wellemeyer shows up and helps make our Lincecum-Cain-Zito-Sanchez tandem totally deadly
8.) Our new guys Huff and DeRosa hit a few RBIs and dingers to help us get more runs than last year (that was awful!) plus the big Panda Sandoval and our lean and mean “pharaoah” Velez both need to hit plenty of homers. Freddy Sanchez better do something because we traded an AMAZING pitching prospect pseudo-Lincecum for that twerp! lol
9.) We steal more bases and get aggressive
10.) We make some good late trades mid season
But, I still don’t think we’re over the hump yet. 2011/2012 I think we’re poised to kick some butt. Right now our new rookies are coming up like Posey, Bumgarner is still in minors and shaping up, and there are a lot of good guys in the minors still not ready.
I think the dang Rockies will take the NL West again, Dodgers or Giants will vie for second. If I were a bettin’ man, I’d say those blue and white smoggy bums will eek out wild card and swiftly get eliminated again. Dude, your Phillies still look awesome, re-tooled, and ready to dominate again. Great timing with the Lee trade! LOL
1.) The Dodgers McCourt divorce is such a distraction and the two of them have to sell the team and no good trades are made and they look as bad in regular season as they do in Spring Training
2.) Lincecum can look better than he looks in Spring Training, sheesh
3.) Buster Posey gets called up and plays hardcore
4.) The Rockies don’t spank and humiliate too much
5.) We get more offense this year…jeez.
6.) Jonathan Sanchez makes a solid season effort and looks as good as he did today
7.) Our new guy Wellemeyer shows up and helps make our Lincecum-Cain-Zito-Sanchez tandem totally deadly
8.) Our new guys Huff and DeRosa hit a few RBIs and dingers to help us get more runs than last year (that was awful!) plus the big Panda Sandoval and our lean and mean “pharaoah” Velez both need to hit plenty of homers. Freddy Sanchez better do something because we traded an AMAZING pitching prospect pseudo-Lincecum for that twerp! lol
9.) We steal more bases and get aggressive
10.) We make some good late trades mid season
But, I still don’t think we’re over the hump yet. 2011/2012 I think we’re poised to kick some butt. Right now our new rookies are coming up like Posey, Bumgarner is still in minors and shaping up, and there are a lot of good guys in the minors still not ready.
I think the dang Rockies will take the NL West again, Dodgers or Giants will vie for second. If I were a bettin’ man, I’d say those blue and white smoggy bums will eek out wild card and swiftly get eliminated again. Dude, your Phillies still look awesome, re-tooled, and ready to dominate again. Great timing with the Lee trade! LOL
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