M
MrS
Guest
Would you mind sharing the names of the very good evangelists you place your trust in…
Would you think that they might be wrong… my guess they have written nothing in the Scriptures…
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Would you think that they might be wrong… my guess they have written nothing in the Scriptures…
H
hoosierdaddy
Guest
my guess they have written nothing in the Scriptures…
Neither has the Pope but that’s a whole n’other thread.
P.S. Mr. S I sent you a PM the other day. I assume you got it?
Neither has the Pope but that’s a whole n’other thread.
P.S. Mr. S I sent you a PM the other day. I assume you got it?
M
MrS
Guest
Nor did many of the Apostles…
However, the first Pope DID write some of the inspired Scripture. It is know as 1st Peter…
Why is it that the non-Catholics don’t see that when the Pope declares a matter on Faith or Morals… he is protected by the Holy Spirit from error (infallibility). The example is Peter’s letter.
St Peter, like his successors, was a sinner as we all are. But… he does have an authority we do not have, and which does not even exist outside the Catholic Church. In some instances the Pope will speak as Peter did, from his authority as the Vicar of Christ. That declaration will be a Truth… for all time, in all ages, for all men… and you are included:thumbsup:
Except for the writting in the dust, Jesus did not give us anything in writing… nor did He even instruct the Apostles to put the Traditions into writing. Good thing he gave them alone the power/authority to be “lead into all Truth” by the Holy Spirit.
… no, I did not get a message… I looked back 60 days… I don’t think PMs are moderated.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
I believe Patrick Madrid alluded that Germany has seven hills as well.
H
hoosierdaddy
Guest
Nor did many of the Apostles…
**But we know they were given authority. We don’t know that about all the Popes throughout the years.**
However, the first Pope DID write some of the inspired Scripture. It is know as 1st Peter…
I agree Peter wrote it. I don’t agree that he was the first Pope.
Why is it that the non-Catholics don’t see that when the Pope declares a matter on Faith or Morals… he is protected by the Holy Spirit from error (infallibility). The example is Peter’s letter.
**Because the whole matter contradicts God’s revelation. Leaders can make errors. As for Faith and Morals, there is no need for the Pope to make any declarations on those matters. Scripture is sufficient to instruct us in both of those areas. We only need Scripture. The Pope has as much authority to declare matters of Faith and Morals to me as an unbeliever does. **
St Peter, like his successors, was a sinner as we all are. But… he does have an authority we do not have, and which does not even exist outside the Catholic Church. In some instances the Pope will speak as Peter did, from his authority as the Vicar of Christ. That declaration will be a Truth… for all time, in all ages, for all men… and you are included:thumbsup:
If he is quoting Scripture, I agree. If he is not quoting Scripture, he is not declaring Truth. There is no “new” Truth. The Word of God is true. God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
Except for the writting in the dust, Jesus did not give us anything in writing… nor did He even instruct the Apostles to put the Traditions into writing. Good thing he gave them alone the power/authority to be “lead into all Truth” by the Holy Spirit.
**Actually, Jesus did lead them to put those things in writing. Prove He gave them alone the power/authority to be lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have to give us anything in writing. He was the WORD MADE FLESH. And I intend to reverently respect the Word of God.**
… no, I did not get a message… I looked back 60 days… I don’t think PMs are moderated.
I could have sworn I sent you one. I was telling you that I did not put you on ignore list, I just hadn’t gotten around to answering a question you asked.
S
shawn34_a
Guest
Irwin Baxtor is one. He has a radio program called Politics and Religion. His focus is more on prophetic fulfillment though. He tries to marry biblical prophecy with current events.
Of course they could be wrong. The Pope can be wrong too for he wasn’t chosen by God, but by man. You could argue that God divinely chooses the Pope through intercession with the cardinals. If that was the case, I would think that all the cardinals would choose the same cardinal to replace the Pope. There would never be a need to a revote. How many times did it take to pick JP II successor.
Remember that the original apostles were called to be and appointed, not of men, neither by man, but by Christ to be apostles (Rom 1:1, 1 Cor 1:1, Gal 1:1). They received the grace and apostleship from Christ (Rom 1:5). They were ordained a preacher, and an apostle by Christ (1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11). The apostles saw Christ for Christ appeared before them. Of all the disciples of Christ, Jesus chose 12, whom he named apostles (Luke 6:13, Acts 1:2).
It’s rediculous that you say “my guess they have written nothing in the Scriptures” for no Pope has since the apostles. Has our current Pope? How about John Paul I or II? Nope!
M
MrS
Guest
**But we know they were given authority. We don’t know that about all the Popes throughout the years. **
We do
I agree Peter wrote it. I don’t agree that he was the first Pope.
The Catholic Church says Peter wrote it. Thanks for acknowleging that.
Scripture is sufficient to instruct us in both of those areas. We only need Scripture
Scripture disagree with you… Scripture records that it is only useful… not sufficient.:tsktsk:
God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
And Jesus promised… in the NT given bo the world by the Catholic Church… that He would sent the Paraclete to LEAD the Church into all Truth. Was His promise then to make the resulting declarations of these appointed ones lies?? I think not.
I could have sworn
tsktsk: 
I sent you one. I was telling you that I did not put you on ignore list, I just hadn’t gotten around to answering a question you asked.
as a matter of fact you did… but not in a PM… it was in one of your posts. Thanks for not ignoring me… I am so sensitive. Actually, at my age, I have no time to waste on being sensitive… I am compelled daily to reply to misconceptions about the Catholic Faith… after all,… Luke 17:10
**Actually, Jesus did lead them to put those things in writing. Prove He gave them alone the power/authority to be lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have to give us anything in writing. He was the WORD MADE FLESH. And I intend to reverently respect the Word of God. **
Your copy of our Bible will show that the translations from the Greek are specific to Peter (singular you), and then to Peter and the other Apostles (plural you).
No one else, no retractions, no inclusions of anyone outside the Catholic Christian Church.
You are correct… there are no new Truths… which is why the promise to the Church is this: “What soever you shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven… etc”
Heaven is where Truth, Jesus, is. Earth is where the visible, living Church founded by Jesus is. The Two are One.
It is the sinners in our church who cause much of the confusion. It is the sinners outside the church who cannot destroy it. We have not been able to, why should you or any non-Catholic be able to.?
**We do
I agree Peter wrote it. I don’t agree that he was the first Pope.
The Catholic Church says Peter wrote it. Thanks for acknowleging that.
Scripture is sufficient to instruct us in both of those areas. We only need Scripture
Scripture disagree with you… Scripture records that it is only useful… not sufficient.:tsktsk:
God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
And Jesus promised… in the NT given bo the world by the Catholic Church… that He would sent the Paraclete to LEAD the Church into all Truth. Was His promise then to make the resulting declarations of these appointed ones lies?? I think not.
I could have sworn
tsktsk: I sent you one. I was telling you that I did not put you on ignore list, I just hadn’t gotten around to answering a question you asked.as a matter of fact you did… but not in a PM… it was in one of your posts. Thanks for not ignoring me… I am so sensitive. Actually, at my age, I have no time to waste on being sensitive… I am compelled daily to reply to misconceptions about the Catholic Faith… after all,… Luke 17:10
**Actually, Jesus did lead them to put those things in writing. Prove He gave them alone the power/authority to be lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have to give us anything in writing. He was the WORD MADE FLESH. And I intend to reverently respect the Word of God.
**Your copy of our Bible will show that the translations from the Greek are specific to Peter (singular you), and then to Peter and the other Apostles (plural you).
No one else, no retractions, no inclusions of anyone outside the Catholic Christian Church.
You are correct… there are no new Truths… which is why the promise to the Church is this: “What soever you shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven… etc”
Heaven is where Truth, Jesus, is. Earth is where the visible, living Church founded by Jesus is. The Two are One.
It is the sinners in our church who cause much of the confusion. It is the sinners outside the church who cannot destroy it. We have not been able to, why should you or any non-Catholic be able to.?
S
shawn34_a
Guest
Don’t get fixated on just one sign, or else you’ll go bonkers. :banghead:
M
MrS
Guest
Perhaps a short re-read of the beginning of the Book of Acts would be in order. It was important for the early Church to fill that office of the early Bishop… hence the men (disciples) cast lots (voted) for one to replace the vacancy of Judas… the man who was the first to leave the Church. There is certainly no record that the vote was unanimous… only that only 2 qualified,
As the Church grew, more qualified leaders were selected. Each “church” had to have a bishop to confere priests, to be the authority in that area and to sheperd that particular flock. They each had authority over their flock… but only insofar as it coincided with the the first-among-equals - and his cathedra eventually would settle near Rome, where it is today.
M
MrS
Guest
that is about what the teen said, looking in the mirror at his acne… " where did all those hills com e from…"
H
hoosierdaddy
Guest
**But we know they were given authority. We don’t know that about all the Popes throughout the years.
We do
Sola Mr.S’a?
I agree Peter wrote it. I don’t agree that he was the first Pope.
The Catholic Church says Peter wrote it. Thanks for acknowleging that.
The Catholic Church acknowledges that uninspired books are Scripture; how can I trust them? I didn’t acknowledge that. I said I agree that Peter wrote it. The Church didn’t have to tell me this…the title of the book “the first epistle of Peter” was pretty persuasive.
Scripture is sufficient to instruct us in both of those areas. We only need Scripture
Scripture disagree with you… Scripture records that it is only useful… not sufficient.:tsktsk:
**You forget the next verse…it makes one COMPLETE. Such disrespect for Scripture…from a Christian? **
God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
And Jesus promised… in the NT given bo the world by the Catholic Church… that He would sent the Paraclete to LEAD the Church into all Truth. Was His promise then to make the resulting declarations of these appointed ones lies?? I think not.
So God did not say “let God be true and every man a liar”?
I could have sworn
as a matter of fact you did… but not in a PM… it was in one of your posts. Thanks for not ignoring me… I am so sensitive. Actually, at my age, I have no time to waste on being sensitive… I am compelled daily to reply to misconceptions about the Catholic Faith… after all,… Luke 17:10
**Ok, I thought it was in a PM. Please don’t patronize me. I am compelled daily to reply to misconceptions about the Christian faith. **
**Actually, Jesus did lead them to put those things in writing. Prove He gave them alone the power/authority to be lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have to give us anything in writing. He was the WORD MADE FLESH. And I intend to reverently respect the Word of God.
Your copy of our Bible will show that the translations from the Greek are specific to Peter (singular you), and then to Peter and the other Apostles (plural you).
No one else, no retractions, no inclusions of anyone outside the Catholic Christian Church.
Where does it say “Catholic Christian Church” in the Bible? Did you know the Bible says that I am baptized into the Body of Christ at salvation? Sorry…Scripture disagrees with you.
You are correct… there are no new Truths… which is why the promise to the Church is this: “What soever you shall bind on earth, shall have been bound in heaven… etc”
Heaven is where Truth, Jesus, is. Earth is where the visible, living Church founded by Jesus is. The Two are One.
It is the sinners in our church who cause much of the confusion. It is the sinners outside the church who cannot destroy it. We have not been able to, why should you or any non-Catholic be able to.?
**Truth is also in the written Word of God. And you think you can “bind” us for not submitting to false doctrine? Scripture disagrees with you. **
M
mercygate
Guest
Apostolic authority resides in all the Apostles, and we know the authority was passed on because we read of the enrollment of Matthias “among the eleven” in the Acts of the Apostles. Moreover, the Great Commission must be carried out to “all nations” and Christ promised to be with the eleven “even unto the end of the world” (the eleven were the only ones summoned to the mountain that day – See Mt. 28). Since the end of the world has not yet come, we must believe that Christ would not take back his word to be with his apostles until we reach that point.**But we know they were given authority. We don’t know that about all the Popes throughout the years.
Hoosier, examine this statement. How is it that by Scripture alone, some advocate infant baptism and others do not? That some allow divorce and others do not? That some believe in the efficacy of baptism and others do not? That some believe in the rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib???) and others do not? The Bible and “my holy spirit can beat up your holy spirit” does not hold up, either theoretically or practically.
Hoosier, I dare you to find an official papal teaching on faith or morals that is not positively saturated with Scripture from beginning to end!
Catholics believe that Jesus commits to the Apostles a particular privilege and promise of special guidance. One is in John 20:21-23 where he breathes on them and commits the Holy Spirit for the specific mission of being sent as the Father had sent him and of forgiving/retaining sins. Another is in John 13, where he promises – again, only to the eleven – that he will send the Holy Spirit to guide them “into all the truth.” And as mentioned above, at the Great Commission in Mt. 28.**Actually, Jesus did lead them to put those things in writing. Prove He gave them alone the power/authority to be lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have to give us anything in writing. He was the WORD MADE FLESH. And I intend to reverently respect the Word of God.
All of the Apostles share in this mission (Mt 18:18) and privilege when they are in union and in communion with Peter, to whom alone Jesus committed the power of the keys (Mt 16:18-19).
Elsewhere in Scripture, when others receive the Holy Spirit, it is for a particular charism of their state in life.
M
MrS
Guest
**Where does it say “Catholic Christian Church” in the Bible? **
Nowhere does it say Catholic, or Baptist, or Methodist, or NonDenominational. It does say Church.
And it is clear that the one Church discussed has Bishops, Priests, Deacons, … that it is build on Peter the Rock by Jesus Himself, … that it is rooted in the Apostles and those who are elected to fill there offices…
So by your own restrictions, you and all who are not part of that ONE Church cannot even use the term Church. While this is theologically correct, modern use of the languages allows anyone and everyone to call themselves a “church” False, but commonly acknowledged.
Sola Mr.S’a?
Actually, the only Sola I profess is Sola Dei Verbum… only the Word of God.
*Our differences arise in this… Catholics have the Word of God from three sources. … *
*[1] The early, pre-NT, oral teachings of our Church Fathers (Tradition), *
[2] the NT Scriptures which contain much (not all) of those Traditions, which are in the canon of Scripture
[3] and the teaching Authority in that Church (the pillar and foundation of the Truth) which is the Divinely protected Magisterium.
*You on the other hand have choosen (not divinely I would guess) to *
*[1] use and abuse only 66 books of the Canon. *
[2] ???
[3] ??
Why is that when for 1500 years the only Christians on earth did not add or subtract from the Word of God?
The Catholic Church acknowledges that uninspired books are Scripture; how can I trust them?
Did you really mean to say that???
God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
And while we agree that God is alway true, are you also saying every man is always a liar? If so, your have thus shot yourself in the foot too.
Is 1Timothy 2:7 true or a lie… "…I say the Truth, I lie not…)
***Truth is also in the written Word of God. And you think you can “bind” us for not submitting to false doctrine? Scripture disagrees with you. ***
It is not me who binds… the Truth is already bound in Heaven. If you choose not to submit, you are exercising your free will given by God. Apologetics simply tries to present Truths to you… not bind you to submit. We are not Islam.
Nowhere does it say Catholic, or Baptist, or Methodist, or NonDenominational. It does say Church.
And it is clear that the one Church discussed has Bishops, Priests, Deacons, … that it is build on Peter the Rock by Jesus Himself, … that it is rooted in the Apostles and those who are elected to fill there offices…
So by your own restrictions, you and all who are not part of that ONE Church cannot even use the term Church. While this is theologically correct, modern use of the languages allows anyone and everyone to call themselves a “church” False, but commonly acknowledged.
Sola Mr.S’a?
Actually, the only Sola I profess is Sola Dei Verbum… only the Word of God.
*Our differences arise in this… Catholics have the Word of God from three sources. … *
*[1] The early, pre-NT, oral teachings of our Church Fathers (Tradition), *
[2] the NT Scriptures which contain much (not all) of those Traditions, which are in the canon of Scripture
[3] and the teaching Authority in that Church (the pillar and foundation of the Truth) which is the Divinely protected Magisterium.
*You on the other hand have choosen (not divinely I would guess) to *
*[1] use and abuse only 66 books of the Canon. *
[2] ???
[3] ??
Why is that when for 1500 years the only Christians on earth did not add or subtract from the Word of God?
The Catholic Church acknowledges that uninspired books are Scripture; how can I trust them?
Did you really mean to say that???
God said “let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar”. This includes the Pope, you, me, etc.
And while we agree that God is alway true, are you also saying every man is always a liar? If so, your have thus shot yourself in the foot too.
Is 1Timothy 2:7 true or a lie… "…I say the Truth, I lie not…)
***Truth is also in the written Word of God. And you think you can “bind” us for not submitting to false doctrine? Scripture disagrees with you. ***
It is not me who binds… the Truth is already bound in Heaven. If you choose not to submit, you are exercising your free will given by God. Apologetics simply tries to present Truths to you… not bind you to submit. We are not Islam.
S
shawn34_a
Guest
Help me here! I never spent a lot of time researching the apostolic succession. The foundation of the Church (NT) that was built by Peter can easily be explained as the NT (Eph 2:20-22). Other than John 21:17, vague at best for this, where is it said that the successors of Peter were given authority via apostolic succession (i know that word is not used in the Bilbe) and by who’s authority was this allowed. I cannot find in the New Testament anywhere that states the twelve apostles passed on their apostolic authority to successors. Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their apostolic authority. No, Jesus ordained the apostles to build the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20). What is the foundation of the church that the apostles built? The New Testament – the record of the deeds and teachings of the apostles.**But we know they were given authority. We don’t know that about all the Popes throughout the years.
M
MrS
Guest
I think (and hope) that you will receive multiple posts to your query… and there are others here who can provide a wealth of info for you…
to that end,… for a start
When Peter had the name change and received the Keys… the link to the OT Isaah is important. In 20:22, I believe, we read of the importance of the chief steward who holds the keys of authority “while the King is away”. He is totally and singularly in charge. The other stewards yield to his authority…“while the king is away”
That office, which is vacated “let another man fill”
Catholic Teaching… using the OT and its fulfullment in the NT, refers to this in Matthew 16:18 St Peter is being annointed, choosen, by Christ the King, to be the “chief steward” and the holder of the “keys”… while the King is away. The King will build his church (kingdom) and it will be upon the Rock who used to be named Simon. This is not unique. God often gives a “special assignment” or a special power to someone whose name is also changed.
In early ACTS, we see it again… the office of one of the “stewards” - Judas - must be filled. It is a first order of business in the infant Church. But not just anyone is qualified to be chosen. For that important position as one of the 12, only two men were qualified.
Today, the Catholic Church is huge… in fact there are about 280 “churches”’/“bishops”/dioceses in America alone. But each 'office" is meant to be filled if it becomes vacant. That happens with the (name removed by moderator)ut of advisors to the Pope and then by appointment of a qualified man by the pope… not by those of the local diocese.
With the Vicar of Christ, however, we do not see the successor Pope selected by the previous Pope… the office is filled as it was by lot… by ballot… often like the first - not unanimous.
It is the office that is so important… Some of the men who were pope were blots on the history of the Church. But their office retained all the authority of the “chief steward”. And, according to Jesus’ promise… the gates of hell will not prevail …
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Yes it was Rome. Rome is Babylon. The harlot made an alliance with the beast. The Harlot is Jerusalem.
You know that in Acts, the Jewish leaders persecuted the Christians, then in 67 A.D. Nero had the Christians blame for the fire in Rome, and order all Christians killed.
Nero then put a statue in the Temple in Jerusalem and that offended the Jews. The refuse to obey the Nero, and they destroyed it. Nero return by attacking the Jews.
By 70 A.D. Titus destroyed Jerusalem. About a the majority of the Revelations is fulfilled and we are in it now, the only thing that has not happen is the Second Coming of Jesus.
M
MrS
Guest
But only two wrote a Gospel.
St Paul was not one of the 12
And the determination of which books were inspired was made LONG after 11 died as martyrs, and John died “normally”
So they did not build that foundation,
The foundation of the Truth is the Church… to which they certainly did contribute.
If you go back a few verses in Eph 2:17 ff, Paul is talking to the new Christians… long before there was any concept of a NT. He tells (oral) them that they are no longer strangers or foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints… built upon the foundation of the Apostles.
I am puzzeled where you got your interpretation.
L
lak611
Guest
And what about the majority of the apostles who didn’t write anything in the New Testament: do you consider them worthless?
M
MrS
Guest
watch it now… deeds???
M
mercygate
Guest
Shawn, you say you are a Knight of Columbus.
You must then be aware that the KofC has some of the best catechetical materials available, including The Catechism of the Catholic Church on line. You would do yourself a big favor if you could step back for a while and start learning what the Church actually is and what she actually teaches. You might come out of the experience in the same theological place you are now in but you would certainly have a better grip on the facts.
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