Protestant "Saints" - Who would choose to "Canonize"

[grampben]

Perhaps. I myself am no unionist but I appreciate my dual citizenship and appreciate some aspects of the British heritage. I’m sure Lewis wasn’t a nationalist, but as you say many unionists don’t mind calling themselves Irish.

Yes, if it were true it wouldn’t necessarily matter. He was an atheist in this early life, but we don’t hold that against him. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[mercygate]

Well, I know who is being discussed here, though I cannot remember her name, and I think that evidence of any sexual relationship is very much lacking…
The woman was the housekeeper for C S Lewis and his brother for many years. She did indeed live in, but this was the custom of the time, and the place. She was much older than Lewis, not that this proves anything, but he didn’t install a Marilyn Monroe clone in the household. He hired a pleasant older lady, I believe a widow, as housekeeper for them.
Live-in servants were very much the norm in the England of his day, the woman was as respectable as one could ask for, and any rumored (name removed by moderator)roprieties are just that: rumors.
Furthermore, I would point out, that the lady in question worked for the Lewis brothers for some time before Lewis’ conversion to Christianity. Any sin then, would be before he believed in God at all, much less professed Christian faith.
She seems to be hauled out these days, merely to criticize Lewis. One might think, IMO, that time might better be spent :byzsoc: for the souls of the departed, than in imagining what sins they might–or more likely–might **not **have done.

Hear! Hear! :clapping:

 

[distracted]

How does he compare with anyone else mentioned?
Just because he is the icon of American conservatism doesn’t make him honourable in this sense. Wasn’t he and his wife into astrology?

you didn’t comprehend what i said…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

First let ma say that I am not trying to start any sort of “war” here and I know that my use of the term saint might be mis-understood by some so please read on before posting.

In The Church, the term saint is applied to a select few persons whose lives are seen as exemplary and worthy of emulation. (Persons other than Christ of course whom we all seek to emulate.)

This got me to thinking about who protestant non-catholics might consider to fit into this mold and why.
For the sake of charitable discussion I would like to refrain from using the earliest reformers, Luther, Calvan, etc. simply because I would like to avoid arguing over their specific views or beliefs.
I’m thinking more in terms of those persons who were raised in a particular faith and did so in such a holy and upright manner as to be considered worthy of emulation for living a life of profound holiness.
One Final stipulation is that the person should have been dead for as least 25 years and is widely viewed in a positive light. By that I mean that their writings and life are generally viewed as useful, and Christian.

And please don’t be offended by my use of the term protestant. I only wished to differentiate between that group of non-catholics which grew out of the Reformation, and those “non-catholics” of the Eastern Churches who already share many saints with the Church in Rome.

So to recap:
Persons who are western, non-catholic, raised in their faith, or converted after the denomination was established (not original reformers) who have been dead for at least 25 years and are widely considered as good Christian men or women.

Well that’s where we’ll start.

Any (name removed by moderator)ut?

Peace
James

I know she was not Protestant, but what about Anne Frank? It seems to me that she led an exemplary life of charity and grace under conditions of extreme hardship, ultimately dying for (or merely because of) her faith.

Another non-Catholic that comes to mind is Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Although not a “saint” in every aspect of his life, he is a shining example of one who answered the call to address the sufferings and inequities of his time. There were men of worse reputation who experienced convernsion and were ultimately canonized.

George Washington also comes to mind as a good potential saint. Who among us might have been more tempted to put on the crown that many wanted to offer to him at the end of the Revolutionary War.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[catholic_daddy]

I know she was not Protestant, but what about Anne Frank? It seems to me that she led an exemplary life of charity and grace under conditions of extreme hardship, ultimately dying for (or merely because of) her faith.

Another non-Catholic that comes to mind is Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Although not a “saint” in every aspect of his life, he is a shining example of one who answered the call to address the sufferings and inequities of his time. There were men of worse reputation who experienced convernsion and were ultimately canonized.

George Washington also comes to mind as a good potential saint. Who among us might have been more tempted to put on the crown that many wanted to offer to him at the end of the Revolutionary War.

Peace,
-Robert

Maybe this has been stated elsewhere, but the whole notion of canonizing people as saints is foreign to the Bible. A study of The New Testament reveals that every Christian is a saint. A ‘saint’ in the New Testament is someone who has been ‘set apart’ for salvation. That would be all believers, and you can see it when you read how Paul opens his letters to the various Christian churches. So would that not make ‘canonization’ meaningless and confusing? Or I may misunderstand the Catholic doctrine on saints.

 

[LilyM]

Maybe this has been stated elsewhere, but the whole notion of canonizing people as saints is foreign to the Bible. A study of The New Testament reveals that every Christian is a saint. A ‘saint’ in the New Testament is someone who has been ‘set apart’ for salvation. That would be all believers, and you can see it when you read how Paul opens his letters to the various Christian churches. So would that not make ‘canonization’ meaningless and confusing? Or I may misunderstand the Catholic doctrine on saints.

Canonisation of certain people as capital S Saints in no way denies that ALL Christ’s followers are indeed small-s saints as Paul calls us. Quite the contrary - we profess in our creed a belief in the ‘communion of saints’ - that is, in a community of the glorified in heaven AND the earthly followers of Christ, all in unison as members of His ONE body.

What canonisation of a person DOES do is indicate that, after much investigation by the Church of the person’s life and writings, as well as investigation and verification of a number of miracles indicating God’s will in the matter, certain people are in a special way put forth by the Church and by God as role models for all Christians.

It in no way denies that there are many other worthy souls who are saved and in glory in heaven, or on the road to salvation on earth. These are all commmemorated on November 1 every year where we celebrate “ALL the faithful departed”.

Even non-Catholics name their churches (often) after various New Testament figures - such as the Apostles or the martyr Stephen and so on. Rather than the pastor’s sainted grandmother. Or in other ways hold certain figures - Billy Graham, Martin Luther King or who-have-you, forward as specially fitted to be rolemodels for the rest of us. You could say they are unofficially canonised.

 

[mmmcounts]

Someone mentioned this guy earlier, but didn’t say anything else about him. Here’s the source. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Livingstone

Perhaps one of the most popular national heroes of the late-nineteenth century in Victorian Britain, Livingstone had a mythic status, which operated on a number of interconnected levels: that of Protestant missionary martyr, that of working-class “rags to riches” inspirational story, that of scientific investigator and explorer, that of imperial reformer, anti-slavery crusader and advocate of commercial empire.

The phrase “Dr. Livingstone, I presume” comes from his meeting with one Henry Morton Stanley. His own story is quite incredible; here’s the link to him. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morton_Stanley The part about meeting the trader…“Do you want a boy, sir?” Unbelievable. That’s also when he took the name Henry Morton Stanley- after the guy who took him in. Prior to that he’d taken his father’s name- actually, the most likely candidate. It was kind of a crowded field at the end.

I’m not putting Stanley up for “Protestant sainthood” like Livingstone- just putting him up for interesting historical inquiry.

 

[ericka1701]

William and Catherine Booth: Founded The Salvation Army in London’s East End in 1865. William was one-time Methodist minister. William preached to the poor, and Catherine spoke to the wealthy, gaining financial support for their work. This is the same Salvation Army that’s in operation today.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Canonisation of certain people as capital S Saints in no way denies that ALL Christ’s followers are indeed small-s saints as Paul calls us. Quite the contrary - we profess in our creed a belief in the ‘communion of saints’ - that is, in a community of the glorified in heaven AND the earthly followers of Christ, all in unison as members of His ONE body.

What canonisation of a person DOES do is indicate that, after much investigation by the Church of the person’s life and writings, as well as investigation and verification of a number of miracles indicating God’s will in the matter, certain people are in a special way put forth by the Church and by God as role models for all Christians.

It in no way denies that there are many other worthy souls who are saved and in glory in heaven, or on the road to salvation on earth. These are all commmemorated on November 1 every year where we celebrate “ALL the faithful departed”.

Even non-Catholics name their churches (often) after various New Testament figures - such as the Apostles or the martyr Stephen and so on. Rather than the pastor’s sainted grandmother. Or in other ways hold certain figures - Billy Graham, Martin Luther King or who-have-you, forward as specially fitted to be rolemodels for the rest of us. You could say they are unofficially canonised.

That’s helpful. Thanks.

 

[sara199]

At a recent press conference, Cardinal José Saraiva Martins, prefect of the Congregation for the Cause of the Saints, announced the new instruction for beatifications and canonizations under the pontificate of Benedict XVI. It is called Sanctorum Mater [The Mother of Saints]. Card. Martins explained that this instruction “is not a new more rigorous law, but simply a more rigorous application of the existing law.”

He said that a “strict adherence” to the rules of the canonization process should avoid previous procedures that had become “problematic” due to poor documentation. He stressed that there has been “confusion” in the first phase of the processes that take place in the Dioceses where the candidates lived. The investigations should not be pushed forward by the enthusiasm of small interested groups, but from the candidates’ “stable, continuous and widespread” reputation of holiness. Also the inquiry should not neglect negative accounts (America, March 10, 2008, p. 4; The Tablet, February 23, 2008, p. 36). Henderson Latisse disposable contact lenses

So far, so good. If taken seriously, this indirect critique of JPII’s unsubstantiated canonizations bypassing established rules appears sufficient to remove from the ranks of sainthood many of the persons hastily awarded this title. As example, let me mention just a few processes where “strict adherence” to the rules was not observed

 

[fishisgood]

John Brown… his quote “Here, before God, in the presence of these witnesses, from this time, I consecrate my life to the destruction of slavery!” Then he was exicuted in an armed revolt against slavery in harpers ferry… awfully violent for a Saint but he was protecting the least of people…

 

[pnewton]

So far, so good. If taken seriously, this indirect critique of JPII’s unsubstantiated canonizations bypassing established rules appears sufficient to remove from the ranks of sainthood many of the persons hastily awarded this title.

Your quote does not mention the late John Paul II nor does it say that any of the canonizations were unsubstantiated. In any case, which Protestant did he try to canonize? I don’t get it.

 

[GKC]

Well, I know who is being discussed here, though I cannot remember her name, and I think that evidence of any sexual relationship is very much lacking…
The woman was the housekeeper for C S Lewis and his brother for many years. She did indeed live in, but this was the custom of the time, and the place. She was much older than Lewis, not that this proves anything, but he didn’t install a Marilyn Monroe clone in the household. He hired a pleasant older lady, I believe a widow, as housekeeper for them.
Live-in servants were very much the norm in the England of his day, the woman was as respectable as one could ask for, and any rumored (name removed by moderator)roprieties are just that: rumors.
Furthermore, I would point out, that the lady in question worked for the Lewis brothers for some time before Lewis’ conversion to Christianity. Any sin then, would be before he believed in God at all, much less professed Christian faith.
She seems to be hauled out these days, merely to criticize Lewis. One might think, IMO, that time might better be spent :byzsoc: for the souls of the departed, than in imagining what sins they might–or more likely–might **not **have done.

Sorry I missed this Lewis discussion.

The woman is question was most certainly Janie King Moore, the mother of a fellow soldier Lewis met during the early part of his WWI experience, Edward Francis Courtney (Paddy) Moore. During their officer training program, they became friends and made a rather unpractical pact that if either were killed in the war, the other would care for the deceased’s parent (Lewis’ father Albert, Paddy’s mother Janie). Before shipping overseas, Lewis spent some time with the Moores and became esp. fond of Janie, a sort of mother figure to him. He was estranged from his father at the time, and he spent as much time with the family as he could, before going to the front.

Paddy was killed, and Lewis undertook to fulfill his promise. Mrs. Moore and her daughter Maureen became a surrogate family for him, and a burden, for the rest of his life. They eventually set up house (with Lewis doing the housekeeping) at the famous Kilns, in 1930. Mrs. Moore’s primary contribution was to make demands on Lewis.

Mrs. Moore, and her relationship with Lewis, form a very curious and difficult to comprehend part of Lewis’ life, now, and to those who observed it at the time. Most of Lewis’ friends found her quarrelsome, demanding, shrewish, and an overall pest, his brother Warren, who joined the household in 1932, in particular. Some found her charming (Owen Barfield, for example). At any rate, Lewis became practically her servant, until her death in 1951. There is informed speculation on both sides as to whether there was ever a sexual component in their relationship.

Mrs. Moore would be discussed in any good bio of Lewis, such as George Sayer’s JACK, and much on her may be found in the collected Lewis diaries for 1922-1927, ed. by Walter Hooper, under the title ALL MY ROAD BEFORE ME.

Added afterthought: The Lewises did have a housekeeper, toward the end of Jack’s life, a Mrs. Miller, but that was far later than the Moore period, and after Lewis’ marriage to Joy.

GKC

 

[JRKH]

At a recent press conference, Cardinal José Saraiva Martins, prefect of the Congregation for the Cause of the Saints, announced the new instruction for beatifications and canonizations under the pontificate of Benedict XVI. It is called Sanctorum Mater [The Mother of Saints]. Card. Martins explained that this instruction “is not a new more rigorous law, but simply a more rigorous application of the existing law.”

He said that a “strict adherence” to the rules of the canonization process should avoid previous procedures that had become “problematic” due to poor documentation. He stressed that there has been “confusion” in the first phase of the processes that take place in the Dioceses where the candidates lived. The investigations should not be pushed forward by the enthusiasm of small interested groups, but from the candidates’ “stable, continuous and widespread” reputation of holiness. Also the inquiry should not neglect negative accounts (America, March 10, 2008, p. 4; The Tablet, February 23, 2008, p. 36). Henderson Latisse disposable contact lenses

So far, so good. If taken seriously, this indirect critique of JPII’s unsubstantiated canonizations bypassing established rules appears sufficient to remove from the ranks of sainthood many of the persons hastily awarded this title. As example, let me mention just a few processes where “strict adherence” to the rules was not observed

While this is an interesting post, I think it is misplaced in this thread.
The intent of this thread was simply to allow people to put forward those non-catholic persons who, in their eyes, personified saintly virtues. It has nothing to do witht he actual process or actual canonized saints.

In any event, if there are cases that need to be reviewed under this new application of the procedures, then I leave that up to those charged with such review.

Peace
James

 

[Zundrah]

First let ma say that I am not trying to start any sort of “war” here and I know that my use of the term saint might be mis-understood by some so please read on before posting.

In The Church, the term saint is applied to a select few persons whose lives are seen as exemplary and worthy of emulation. (Persons other than Christ of course whom we all seek to emulate.)

This got me to thinking about who protestant non-catholics might consider to fit into this mold and why.
For the sake of charitable discussion I would like to refrain from using the earliest reformers, Luther, Calvan, etc. simply because I would like to avoid arguing over their specific views or beliefs.
I’m thinking more in terms of those persons who were raised in a particular faith and did so in such a holy and upright manner as to be considered worthy of emulation for living a life of profound holiness.
One Final stipulation is that the person should have been dead for as least 25 years and is widely viewed in a positive light. By that I mean that their writings and life are generally viewed as useful, and Christian.

And please don’t be offended by my use of the term protestant. I only wished to differentiate between that group of non-catholics which grew out of the Reformation, and those “non-catholics” of the Eastern Churches who already share many saints with the Church in Rome.

So to recap:
Persons who are western, non-catholic, raised in their faith, or converted after the denomination was established (not original reformers) who have been dead for at least 25 years and are widely considered as good Christian men or women.

Well that’s where we’ll start.

Any (name removed by moderator)ut?

Peace
James

LOL - The word protestant is not offensive!
Please private mail me and I will very happily discuss any catholic / protestant argumants with you ( I mean “argumant” as in debate).

The word “saint” how ever is a bit of a foreign word in my methodist chruch…

Persons who are western, non-catholic

That’s me in a nutshell!

xXX zundrah XXx

 

[JRKH]

LOL - The word protestant is not offensive!
Please private mail me and I will very happily discuss any catholic / protestant argumants with you ( I mean “argumant” as in debate).

No need to debate this here or in private. I only included the statement in my OP to prevent any derailing of the thread. If you have read through the posts you’ll see that the thread brought up a good many interesting people.

The word “saint” how ever is a bit of a foreign word in my methodist chruch…

Perhaps, but I hope I was clear enough in my explanation that you understand the type of person(s) I am looking for.

Peace
James

 

[Zundrah]

No need to debate this here or in private. I only included the statement in my OP to prevent any derailing of the thread. If you have read through the posts you’ll see that the thread brought up a good many interesting people.

Perhaps, but I hope I was clear enough in my explanation that you understand the type of person(s) I am looking for.

Peace
James

…of course, I see St. Peter as a great person and an instiration but I’m not sure about all these saints that the catholics have. I’m sorry but I don’t know much about them… Don’t think that I’m being offensive, I just don’t know about them, that’s all.

I am scepticle about the communion of saints…could you maybe explain them to me?

 

[JRKH]

…of course, I see St. Peter as a great person and an instiration but I’m not sure about all these saints that the catholics have. I’m sorry but I don’t know much about them… Don’t think that I’m being offensive, I just don’t know about them, that’s all.

I am scepticle about the communion of saints…could you maybe explain them to me?

I’m afriad that you misunderstand the question in the OP.

The thread is asking persons of Protestant background to put forward noncatholic people who they feel would qualify as saintly people. Such persons are not declared saints in the church because they are not Catholic.
For clarification read through a few of the posts in the thread to see some of the persons who have been proposed.

Peace
James

 

[Zundrah]

I’m afriad that you misunderstand the question in the OP.

The thread is asking persons of Protestant background to put forward noncatholic people who they feel would qualify as saintly people. Such persons are not declared saints in the church because they are not Catholic.
For clarification read through a few of the posts in the thread to see some of the persons who have been proposed.

Peace
James

( I guess I should leave the thread, I don’t know any one protestant that should be refered to as a saint… ) SORRY!

 

[JRKH]

( I guess I should leave the thread, I don’t know any one protestant that should be refered to as a saint… ) SORRY!

Just as a question, did you read through some of the posts?
There were some really interesting people proposed. Might make some interesting reading up on.

Have a great day.

Peace
James