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wisdomseeker
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if you are looking for the a church that interprets the Bible verse by verse, it is not the catholic church for she does not read the Bible the way protestants do. get this through your head.
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jmcrae
Guest
Sure we do. How do we know that St. Thomas, in fact, made it to India? Because the Church that he founded (with no Bible - nothing but the Oral Tradition) was still there, and the priests and Bishops of his churches were still saying Mass, hearing Confessions, and doing all the Sacraments in pretty much the same way that we do them, when they were found by the first white men in India. They were immediately brought into full communion with Rome, and brought up to speed on all the history that has happened since we lost contact with St. Thomas the Apostle.
The priest of my parish is from India, and he can trace his line of succession all the way back to St. Thomas.
We can know by what is remembered and passed on in the community. If something is being passed on in several communities at the same time, without them communicating directly with each other, then we know that they all got it from the same place, at some time in the past. So, we look at their history, and see where they come from.
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justasking4
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What exactly did Thomas teach orally? All you have shown me here is that there is some history that shows he was there. What i want to know specifically what he taught orally. Can you provide that?
This is a different issue than demonstrating what Thomas taught orally.
Again this does not address the oral issue specifically. It is only by some written docuamentation that we can know what was speciifcally taught orally. Without this you can’t know specifically what Thomas taught orally.
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justasking4
Guest
What this shows is that for the vast majority of the scriptures the catholic church has failed to live up to this claim of being the interpreter of Scripture and has left catholics in the dark what a large percentage of scriptures mean. This is where this leads you.
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jmcrae
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Everything that the people in India knew about Jesus and about how to do the Sacraments was obviously taught to them by St. Thomas, since they had no other source for this information, and yet, they knew it. They knew how to pray the Mass and how to go to Confession, and how to do the Anointing of the Sick, etc., using the same format that we use, yet without having any contact with the rest of the Church for something like 1700 years or whatever. They had priests, deacons, and Bishops, just like we do, and ordained them using the same ritual that we use.
You are picking nits. They had only one source for the information - St. Thomas. What they knew about Jesus, they learned from him. What they knew about the Church and the Sacraments, they learned from him. Just because we don’t know the exact wording of how he taught them, that doesn’t mean we don’t know the content of what he taught them.
(If your child goes to school one day not knowing the alphabet, and then comes home reciting the alphabet, you can know without needing something written down that your child was taught at school that day how to recite the alphabet. Right? I hope. I mean, I hope you don’t wait for your child’s report card to come out, before finding out what he is learning in school.)
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jmcrae
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This is ludicrous.
The meaning of the Scriptures becomes plain when we look at the rest of the teachings of the Church. The focal point is the Mass; not the Bible. If you look at the Scriptures through the lens of the Mass, all kinds of things become clear that were not so obvious before.
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wisdomseeker
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Jasking.
you dont know nothing about the catholic church why do you argue with those who do? you come across is being very arrogant. give it up! this church is not what you think it should be but it is what Jesus made up to be. it is sad to hear anyone downplay and minimize Jesus Church.
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you dont know nothing about the catholic church why do you argue with those who do? you come across is being very arrogant. give it up! this church is not what you think it should be but it is what Jesus made up to be. it is sad to hear anyone downplay and minimize Jesus Church.
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justasking4
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Not so. Do you personally know many catholics that you believe they know the Scriptures very well?
.
Can you give me a couple of examples?
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justasking4
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Not so. i do know quite a lot about it. Maybe you can add to my knowledge?
What i already know is deeply troubling.
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jmcrae
Guest
Every Catholic I know except for the very young knows the Scriptures as well as or better than I do. (I am a convert from Protestantism - I was an Elder, and I taught a lot of Sunday School and Bible study classes when I was a Protestant - I was considered “knowledgable” of the Scriptures by both liberal and evangelical Protestants; I was often invited to speak at the Wednesday meetings of my local Plymouth Brethren congregation, and as you know they are no slouches when it comes to the Bible.)
For example, the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus gives us a picture of what we should look for at the Mass - the four parts of the story correspond to the four parts of the Mass - first, they are gathered in the presence of Christ, next, the breaking open of the Scriptures and the explanation of their meaning, then the recognizing of Jesus in the breaking of the bread, and then, the going forth to proclaim the good news to all the world.
Mass -------------------------------------------- Disciples on the road to Emmaus
Gathering Rite ------------------------------- Disciples meet a stranger and walk with him.
Liturgy of the Word ------------------------ Jesus opens the Scriptures to them and
------------------------------------------------------ explains their meaning
Liturgy of the Eucharist ------------------ They sit down to supper, and recognize Jesus
------------------------------------------------------------ in the breaking of the bread
Dismissal Rite ------------------------------- They return with great joy to Jerusalem and announce
------------------------------------------------------------ that Jesus is risen from the dead.
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Milliardo
Guest
Again, we do; early Christians after the Apostles attest to what they taught.
Sunday worship was certainly never found in Scripture; as pointed out, the closest reference would be Acts 20:7, but then Christians then worshiped with the Jews on the Saturday Sabbath. Nor do we find any recording of celebrations of Easter and Christmas in the Bible–those would subsequently develop and grow into the early Church. Christianity never stopped after the writing of the New Testament, after all–it progressed.
Ah–as we can see in what John wrote, these signs were not written down, but were nevertheless known to early Christians. Perhaps a reading of early Christian work will make one understand what they believed in.
We see in history that it can happen; thus the early Church also believed in the collegiality of the bishops–that they should be in harmony with one another, and that what they believed in were the ones taught to them by those preceding them. Thus the Council of Carthage, in finalizing the canon of the Bible, noted that the books they approved were the ones “handed down to us by our fathers before us”–note the handing down of such things. It wasn’t merely because it was there all along, or that it fell from the sky, but that it was a tradition given to them by their predecessors. Early Christian development hinged on tradition, not merely by Scripture.
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pismopal
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I was once a protestant (non Catholic) and the change I made when I was taken into the Church was indeed significant. I had very good reasons for making the change…some of them I have already posted but the factors can be lumped under one heading. I wanted to worship within the true Church…the Church founded by and protected by G-d’s promise. How well do they know the critical issues and what they embrace? The RCIA program will give the seeker all they will need to know and it is a beautiful and educational beginning of one’s walk in the Church. There is no comparable program in any non Catholic sect that I know of.
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jmcrae
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That’s so true! We complain sometimes about various failings in the RCIA, but yeah - there is absolutely nothing like RCIA in any other religion. Many Protestant churches get you to sign up for membership the first day you arrive, before you can have a chance to know anything about what they teach. Even the worst RCIAs still stick to the principle that people need some kind of formation and an experience of conversion before they can call themselves “Catholic”.I was once a protestant (non Catholic) and the change I made when I was taken into the Church was indeed significant. I had very good reasons for making the change…some of them I have already posted but the factors can be lumped under one heading. I wanted to worship within the true Church…the Church founded by and protected by G-d’s promise. How well do they know the critical issues and what they embrace? The RCIA program will give the seeker all they will need to know and it is a beautiful and educational beginning of one’s walk in the Church. There is no comparable program in any non Catholic sect that I know of.
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justasking4
Guest
Before you became a catholic were your aware of all the different doctrines and practices of the catholic church?I was once a protestant (non Catholic) and the change I made when I was taken into the Church was indeed significant. I had very good reasons for making the change…some of them I have already posted but the factors can be lumped under one heading. I wanted to worship within the true Church…the Church founded by and protected by G-d’s promise. How well do they know the critical issues and what they embrace? The RCIA program will give the seeker all they will need to know and it is a beautiful and educational beginning of one’s walk in the Church. There is no comparable program in any non Catholic sect that I know of.
How did you deal with the marian doctrines and praying to her?
Do you find going to a priest to be forgiven instead of God directly a benefit?
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justasking4
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But you nor your church knows exactly what these oral teachings of the apostles were.
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jmcrae
Guest
This isn’t directed to me, but I’ll answer it, too:
Yes; I attended all of my RCIA classes, and did all of the required homework.
Prayerfully. It took a really long time for me to get my head around them, but once I understood that everything Mary has, she got from her Son, it all began to make sense to me.
What I find is that going with a priest to God is of infinitely greater benefit than just going to God all by myself.
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wisdomseeker
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the catholic church does not claim anything that Jesus did not promise. havent you read the Word of God says? Jesus: I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. it does not matter the sins of man. dont you think that Jesus knew what people would do in His church? this church is protected from error because it has to be. so the truth of Jesus could be upheld through the ages to come so all people would know about in truth. we dont look who is a sinner in the our church, we trust and believe in what Jesus promise period. can you imagine if Jesus left up to any man to proclaim His truth? it would be a disaster. i guess we can figure out for ourselves what would happen. therefor it does not matter if the pope says something wrong and he will for he is just human. Like Peter he said many things umpleasing to Christ but yet Jesus knew peters was sincere and honest. and that is why Jesus told Peter: attend my sheep, strength thy brothers.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Yes we do. do you not read the post that respond to this question you have been given Examples of these Traditions in numerous post.
I will give an other than the 2 I posted earlier.
Apostolic succession ( the Bishops and Priest)
Most have not been oral Traditions for 1900 or so years as they became written. The leading obstacle for most non Catholics is that many did not need to be defined as official teaching for many years, starting with the reformation to combat heresy which lead people to say that this was not taught prior to that date which would be incorrect.
Another thing it kind of like as a child your mother gives you a list of things to do she has told you previously how to do them so it is not necessary for her to write all that out on the list. you ask some one to help you with these things you show them the list and tell them the how to’s.
Scripture = to do list
Tradition = the how to’s
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wisdomseeker
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let s put this way: your family has tradition that i could not know about it because i was not raised in your family but you do for you were there you saw . did and heard everything they did. therefore you practice those thing which you have learned from them now you pass on to your children. you cant tell just by reading the Bible the way they worshiped the Lord then. we cant know exactly how they did certain things then because you were not there. therefore what the catholic does it is because was pass it on from the apostles to the successors to this day. if you look at the rituals of our church and the rituals of the Jews it has great resemblance.
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justasking4
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This still does not mean you know what the apostles taught orally. You do not know specifically what they taught orally. No one knows.
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