Protestant says: Strength through division

[NathanR]

I had a recent conversation with a protestant who feels there is strength through division regarding the many denominations of the protestant church (but not on the “essentials”). Didn’t John Locke the Economist during the founding of the USA say something like, the more denominations there are the less power any denomination has (paraphrasing). Any comments on this or other words of wisdom regarding “strength through division” would be appreciated. FYI: His point was the more styles of worship the more people will be saved.

 

[mark_a]

Sounds familiar, maybe kinda like “divide and conquer”.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sounds familiar, maybe kinda like “divide and conquer”.

It’s odd though. Jesus prayed for Christian unity. John 17:6-26

6: "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.
7: Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
8: for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9: I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
10: all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12: While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23: I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me.
26: I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[Caesar]

Sounds familiar, maybe kinda like “divide and conquer”.

It is good that Catholicism can use the fragmentation of the protestant heresy (interestingly, most heresies in history have tended to break up rather quickly into differant factions) to bring them back into the One True Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It is good that Catholicism can use the fragmentation of the protestant heresy (interestingly, most heresies in history have tended to break up rather quickly into differant factions) to bring them back into the One True Church.

The only way for Protestants truly want to be with Jesus Christ, they need to go home and become Catholic.

Protestantism should never happen, but through the sin of men, through the vanity of their selfish minds, and desires, the Reformers decide to divide themselves from Jesus Christ original Church, which is the Catholic Church. AMEN!!!

 

[MarkA16]

I read somewhere that having denominations was accepted in the Bible. But I forgot what these verses were, does anyone know?

 

[Libertas]

“A house divided against itself cannot stand”
Jesus Christ > The Protestant that said “strength through division”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I had a recent conversation with a protestant who feels there is strength through division regarding the many denominations of the protestant church (but not on the “essentials”). Didn’t John Locke the Economist during the founding of the USA say something like, the more denominations there are the less power any denomination has (paraphrasing). Any comments on this or other words of wisdom regarding “strength through division” would be appreciated. FYI: His point was the more styles of worship the more people will be saved.

From what I can tell this is a new trend in protestant “apologetics”…all you need to do is make up an answer that sounds good, the details dont matter…rather than recognize division is bad they now make it out to be a good thing. After “rationalizing” it is a good thing they can have an “excuse” to overlook the damage of divisions as well as provide an “answer” to Catholics.

 

[Church_Militant]

Rationalization makes for errant responses from a fallacious premise.

 

[Genesis315]

The Protestant idea expressed in the OP is one that is drawn from Liberalism, Rationalism, and other Democratic ideals. Under such philosophies, no one can authoritatively declare truth, truth is hashed out in the “marketplace of ideas.” The theory is that the more competing voices clashing together, the more easily truth will become known as reason is applied to the ideas though rational arguments and discourse. Theoretically, all these competing ideas being discussed together will eventually yield the best (albeit almost always imprefect) result. This is all well and good for issues that we don’t objectively know the truth of–such as what is the best foreign policy, what public works should be taken up, etc.

Also, Adam Smith, the famous ecomonmist, said the more competing denominations, the better, as competition would bring out the best result like in a free market.

On the other hand, the true revelation of God is objectively known, indisputable, and perfect. It is not something that men create or come to know through competition–rather it is bestowed directly to men by God–and especially by God-made-man and then handed down faithfully.

 

[kaycee]

Those united with Christ by Faith are in perfect unity with the Father!

23:** I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one,** so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Is this not THE most important UNITY?

 

[Genesis315]

Those who willfully cling to heresies or schisms–great sins against faith–are not united to Christ in faith.

These are great sins against faith because the person is rejecting some of the revalation of God–which we are called to accept with supernatural faith.

 

[kaycee]

Those who willfully cling to heresies or schisms–great sins against faith–are not united to Christ in faith.

These are great sins against faith because the person is rejecting some of the revalation of God–which we are called to accept with supernatural faith.

Wow, guess you would not be on the “seperated brethren” sentiment side of Catholicism.

 

[Verita]

Protestants are deceiving themselves if they think that the kind of “unity” which they have and which basically ammounts to being friendly with each other (most of the time) and sharing some beliefs (but not all) is the same kind of unity that Christ prayed for.

He prayed that we would be one AS HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. That is one in substance and one in will. There is no disagreement in the Trinity! There is no idea of independence and democracy in the Trinity! The Father is the head of the Trinity and the Son and the Spirit submit to him. Protestants do commit a grave error in not doing likewise with the Church that Christ established with his authority.

As a former Protestant who recognized that she was in a state of rebellion and submitted herself to the Church, I feel very strongly on this subject.

 

[Keikiolu]

I had a recent conversation with a protestant who feels there is strength through division regarding the many denominations of the protestant church (but not on the “essentials”). Didn’t John Locke the Economist during the founding of the USA say something like, the more denominations there are the less power any denomination has (paraphrasing). Any comments on this or other words of wisdom regarding “strength through division” would be appreciated.

FYI: His point was the more styles of worship the more people will be saved.

This (the bolded line above) assumes that all the “styles of worship” are true and equally valid religions.

They ARE all separate religions, in fact, as they have no central authority to enforce the truth.

In ECONOMIC matters, diversity and “free trade” is THE BEST attitude and practice possible.

In FAITH matters, since TRUTH is not a negotiable matter which can be “bargained with”, diversity and “free trade”, which means “do as you like” and "divide when you’re ‘uncomfortable’ ", is the WORST possible practice.

Protestants have extended the anti-Papa (anti father-like wise authority) concept that arose from Luther’s massive ego and his predecessors (Hus) massive “I don’t wanna do what Daddy says!” attitude that arose from the economic climate of their times (free trade was GOOD for business!) into the Faith realm.

Oops… boo-boo…!

The mis-application of principles that work great in one area of human life into areas where they might SEEM like a good idea, but aren’t, is a typical characteristic of lazy people who want “quick fixes” for problems they’re NOT PREPARED to deal with.

These people HATE being told what to do. Regardless of it’s being wise or not.

That prompted them to find some way to say “I know better!”

The “free market” exemplified a successful “live and let live” non-authoritative model for circumventing that annoying “Daddy”.

The fact that truth is truth, and not a bargain, was overlooked as irrelevent.

Tah-Dah! Protestants.

(( Of course they DIDN’T just “live and let live”, but that’s a whole other story. ))

 

[water]

In practice, we have seen division brings weakness to one body; and unity brings strength.

How coincident is that even the Lord Himself is also united in the Trinity.

 

[Liberian]

Sounds familiar, maybe kinda like “divide and conquer”.

Or, as Benjamin Franklin said after signing the Declaration of Independence, “We had better all hang together now, or else we shall all hang separately.”

• Liberian

 

[Future_Prodigy]

The only way for Protestants truly want to be with Jesus Christ, they need to go home and become Catholic.

Protestantism should never happen, but through the sin of men, through the vanity of their selfish minds, and desires, the Reformers decide to divide themselves from Jesus Christ original Church, which is the Catholic Church. AMEN!!!

You have got to be kidding me!!! There are plenty of GOOD reasons they split from the church, reform at that time from within the church was just not foreseeable for many of the reformers and had to be accomplished outside of the church. This sort of triumphalism is what’s holding back Christian unity!

 

[Caesar]

You have got to be kidding me!!! There are plenty of GOOD reasons they split from the church, reform at that time from within the church was just not foreseeable for many of the reformers and had to be accomplished outside of the church. This sort of triumphalism is what’s holding back Christian unity!

That does not change the fact that they left the Church of Christ. It doesnt matter if individuals were corrupt or unfaithful in their duties (although I do think the corruption in the Church of the High Middle Ages has been greatly exaggerated), because if you truly believe that this is the Church of Christ you would never leave it, and if you dont believe it is the Church of Christ then your a hypocrit for denouncing others when your own faith is weak.

The only true reformers were those who acted for the Church, not against it, to renew the Church rather then to destroy it and put a new church in it’s place. St. Pius V, not the heretic Luther, brought about the Catholic Reformation.

Christian unity is only possible when we see that the only true unity is through the Church that Christ established on the rock that is St. Peter and his successors, the Roman Pontiffs. True unity upholds the Catholic and remains loyal to Rome, and in doing so glorifies God.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

I’m not even going to comment on that message, for even the majority of secular scholars will agree the reformaiton was needed to wake up the church and really instigate reform! I hope you realize each christian denomination has a claim to the true christianity its not just your RC. The modern roman church is not in full continuity with its historical roots like most people believe from the past roots (just go to the eastern orthodox forum and say that… see how many resposne you get!). It to has changed. I hate that argument and see it as a round-about. Arguing the RC goes back to the apostles can be rightfully claimed by other denominations as well.