Protestant says: Strength through division

[Future_Prodigy]

Sure the RC is in most continuity with the medieval church (not the patristic or apostolic church!!!), but protestants will say you got it wrong and the mediveal church was totally corrupted. Even RC theologians accept the faith as a GROWING tradition. I dont even ahve to mention that the Orthodox will never accept that you are the ones with the real continuity. I never understood this strain of catholicism that says you have to accept our way and only our way. This is not even Christian for peats sake!

 

[Caesar]

I’m not even going to comment on that message, for even the majority of secular scholars will agree the reformaiton was needed to wake up the church and really instigate reform!

I did not say the Church did not have it’s share of corrupt leaders at that time, but it doesnt matter to the faith of an individual.

I would like to quote St. Thomas More to you:

“I do not care if I have against me all the Bishops; I have with me the Saints and all the doctors of the Church.”

I hope you realize each christian denomination has a claim to the true christianity its not just your RC. The modern roman church is not in full continuity with its historical roots like most people believe from the past roots (just go to the eastern orthodox forum and say that… see how many resposne you get!). It to has changed. I hate that argument and see it as a round-about. Arguing the RC goes back to the apostles can be rightfully claimed by other denominations as well.

The only link the protestants have to the Apostles is through the Catholic Church. None of the doctrines unique to protestants descend from the Apostles. The Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church- our doctrines do go back to the Early Church (what you are thinking of ares disciplines, which are traditions that accumulate and change over time, but have no real impact on our faith, just how we practice it). The Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, with the Holy Father being the successor the St. Peter himself.

As for the Eastern Orthodox, they broke away from the Catholic Church, but retained many of the true articles of the Catholic Faith and have valid Sacraments and clergy. They broke away because of politics, not religion. Their situation is differant from that of the protestants.

I never understood this strain of catholicism that says you have to accept our way and only our way. This is not even Christian for peats sake!

I am sorry, but relativism (the belief that religious beliefs are relative to each group) is a heresy. Both Pope John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have condemned what they call the “dictatorship of relativism”.

Protestants may have some of the truth, but only the fullness of Christ’s teachings are to be found in the Catholic Church, the Church established by Christ upon the rock that is St. Peter and his successors, the Bishops of Rome. Unless you accept the Catholic Faith you cannot have the fullness of the Christian Faith.

 

[Philthy]

Those united with Christ by Faith are in perfect unity with the Father!

23:** I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one,** so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

Is this not THE most important UNITY?

Kaycee -

How do you arrive at the conclusion that Protestants are united in “Faith”? That’s what we are discussing - the reality that their “faith” is different according to denomination. You cant simply throw this verse out there and expect us to understand how you believe it applies to Protestant disunity. There are also many verses that speak of avoiding divisions, avoiding arguments, etc which would seem to render your interpretation of this statement incorrect.

 

[Keikiolu]

You have got to be kidding me!!! There are plenty of GOOD reasons they split from the church, reform at that time from within the church was just not foreseeable for many of the reformers and had to be accomplished outside of the church. This sort of triumphalism is what’s holding back Christian unity!

As with all things arising out of sin that God allows to happen: the “bad BAD behavior” some people within THE Church (Catholic), the revolt of the “protestants” (it was not a reform but a revolt),… it was allowed as a scourge for the “mortification” of the people of God.

Men CHOSE to sin, and God allowed their sin, and God allowed that sin to generate it’s natural reaction, which was (as usual) the scourge of disunity and vulnerability to those with “minds like unto a flail” who desire to inflict pain out of jealously, as Cain.

While we’re commited to seeing the good and the thruth in ALL religions, as Catholics, we also know that the only Church is THE Catholic Church (which I’m sure you’ve heard before, FutureP), and that the only “Christian Unity” possible is for those who call themselves “Protestants” to resubmit themselves to Christ’s Single Church, and become Roman Catholic.

Your phrase “…had to be accomplished OUTSIDE of the Church…” establishes that even you consider yourself “outside the Church”.

It is only ego (self idolatry) that prohibits Christian unity.

The Daughter is never not the Daughter of the Mother. The Daughter may call herself what she wishes, but to call herself the Daughter of her Mother’s Father is sin.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

I love how it is the conservative and ultra montanes that say these sort of comments but then don’t realize within their OWN tradition they haver a liberal stream that is saying no the conservatrives got it wrong, we are right.

If you believe that we as Christians are guided by the holy spirt then how do you make sense of reformation? They have just as legitmate a reason to say the Spirt was guiding us in Truth just like the RC says for its establishment of its MODERN church, for the modern church is nothign like the older church (sure it has continuity but it is very different!). The ideas and theologies of the RC have developed over time and were guided y the HS, protestants will say they got it wrong and we are guided by the HS. Its not a black and white issue. This is what i hate about how some catholics handle the iusse. Its not just blakc and white!

 

[Future_Prodigy]

Your phrase “…had to be accomplished OUTSIDE of the Church…” establishes that even you consider yourself “outside the Church”.

No i do not consider myself outside the church and many pious faithful catholic Professors will aggre with me on that!!! I love hoow in the last 3 threads ive made you have made stupid remarks concerning myself not being a i quote 'child of God" (for my beleifs in job being troublesome), ‘outside the church’ and something else concernign my problems with god’s characterists. Do you read your bible at all? This is why on campus most ppl don’t liek the catholics, they are not welcoming and our embody the virtues of Christ. Condeming someone saying they are outside of the church and not children of God are not Christian remakrs. PERIOD!

 

[rr1213]

His point was the more styles of worship the more people will be saved.

The Catholic Church has, what, over 20 different rites in union with Rome? If we are talking about worship styles, or differences in liturgy if not doctrine, then the Church can offer different things to different people. Is this not a strength?

 

[Caesar]

The Catholic Church has, what, over 20 different rites in union with Rome? If we are talking about worship styles, or differences in liturgy if not doctrine, then the Church can offer different things to different people. Is this not a strength?

Yes, 23 I believe. These are the Eastern Catholic Churches (all but one with a corresponding Eastern Orthodox Church) in full communion with Rome, and the Roman Catholic Church.

As a point of clarification, most of the differant Churches comprising the entirety of the Catholic Church (including the Church of Rome) can be be broken down into various liturgical Rites. The Eastern Catholic Bishops are given a little bit more freedom then the Roman Bishops in certain areas, so some points of doctrine are not necessary for Eastern Catholics as they might be for Roman Catholics and vice versa. But most of the differances are in discipline, not doctrine.

 

[Keikiolu]

No i do not consider myself outside the church and many pious faithful catholic Professors will aggre with me on that!!!

Then those catholic professors are wrong. Or more likely you’re misinterpreting what they are saying.

You may be a christian, but you’re not within the Church unless you’re a Catholic. Period.

That doesn’t mean your DAMNED, as that decision is God’s, but it does mean you’ll have a more difficult time of it.

I love hoow in the last 3 threads ive made you have made stupid remarks concerning myself not being a i quote 'child of God" (for my beleifs in job being troublesome), ‘outside the church’ and something else concernign my problems with god’s characterists. Do you read your bible at all?

Not nearly as much as I should be, that’s for sure…!!

This is why on campus most ppl don’t liek the catholics, they are not welcoming and our embody the virtues of Christ. Condeming someone saying they are outside of the church and not children of God are not Christian remakrs. PERIOD!

Jesus called a goat a goat.

You’re not CONDEMNED by me or by any Catholic, or by the Church.

If you want to find out about what Catholics believe, and have them explain it to you, then do so.

If you want to explain you beliefs to Catholics, go for it.

If you want to hear that you are a member of the one true Church founded and supported by Christ, then you’ll be disappointed if you want a Catholic to tell that to you.

Being a Christian is telling the truth.

If you can’t handle the truth, don’t solicit it.

(( And I wouldn’t be so brusk in real-life, but this medium makes being overly “nuanced” more difficult. ))

 

[Keikiolu]

I love how it is the conservative and ultra montanes that say these sort of comments but then don’t realize within their OWN tradition they haver a liberal stream that is saying no the conservatrives got it wrong, we are right.

If you believe that we as Christians are guided by the holy spirt then how do you make sense of reformation? They have just as legitmate a reason to say the Spirt was guiding us in Truth just like the RC says for its establishment of its MODERN church, for the modern church is nothign like the older church (sure it has continuity but it is very different!). The ideas and theologies of the RC have developed over time and were guided y the HS, protestants will say they got it wrong and we are guided by the HS. Its not a black and white issue. This is what i hate about how some catholics handle the iusse. Its not just blakc and white!

You may believe as you wish.

We may believe as we wish.

What you WANT is for us to say you are just as “correct” as we are, which we don’t believe.

You would have us lie to please you.

How is that Christian?

What you are really espousing is Relativism, which is a heresy.

If you choose to placate those in denominations other than yours by saying that they are just as correct as you are, then, if you’re correct in that, why are you different denominations, and if you’re not correct in that, why would you lie to them and incur the penalties of sin?

 

[Keikiolu]

The Catholic Church has, what, over 20 different rites in union with Rome? If we are talking about worship styles, or differences in liturgy if not doctrine, then the Church can offer different things to different people. Is this not a strength?

It sure is.

But the CORRECTNESS of those liturgies is decided upon by a single authoritative source.

And that is unique strength of the Church.

 

[Keikiolu]

Kaycee -

How do you arrive at the conclusion that Protestants are united in “Faith”? That’s what we are discussing - the reality that their “faith” is different according to denomination. You cant simply throw this verse out there and expect us to understand how you believe it applies to Protestant disunity. There are also many verses that speak of avoiding divisions, avoiding arguments, etc which would seem to render your interpretation of this statement incorrect.

Kaycee,… read all of John 17.

Jesus is asking the Father to help all His people become ONE, as Jesus and the Father are one.

Doe that sound like “strength through division”?

 

[Libertas]

Yea the guy that said that has got to have said one of the most anti-biblical self contradictory statements I’ve ever heard.