Protestant Songs at Mass

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vsedriver said:
I can’t imagine a more appropriate song for Lent then the Negro Spiritual “Were you there”?
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I don’t know what lead you to believe that Archbishop Sample would not agree? He never said that music written for Protestant worship could not be appropriate for the Mass. That topic doesn’t even come up in his entire letter, as far as I know. The wrong-headed idea that singing at Mass belongs only to hymns and not to the Ordinary of the Mass is covered, but as far as I know he did not exclude any music based on having its origin with a composer or lyricist not in full communion with the Church. I don’t know why he would. It’s irrelevant.

As an example: the piece we all know as Ave Maria was written by Franz Schubert as Ellen’s Third Song, D. 839, Op. 52, No. 6 (Liederzyklus vom Fräulein vom See). It was not originally written to be performed in a church, but was one of a set of songs inspired by Walter Scott’s poem The Lady of the Lake. lt is a song in which the female part raises a prayer, and so the composer gave it an aesthetic very much suited to prayer, rather than making it sound like “entertainment.” The song Schubert wrote was a prayer in German to the Blessed Virgin by a fictional character; the original lyrics were not actually the Latin Hail Mary. That “secular” origin doesn’t mean it is not liturgically appropriate to sing the Latin Hail Mary to that music in church.

Likewise, other music written for a secular setting or as devotional songs to be performed outside of Mass could be sufficiently prayerful in their aesthetic to be suitable for Mass. The Archbishop’s point was that it is not words alone that make a piece suitable for the Mass, not that the origin of every melody used at Mass must have been written specifically for the Mass and only for the Mass in order to be suitable for the Mass. He did not say the latter.
 
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What document says that a piece of music is to be barred from Mass not because the lyrics or the melody or the instruments failed to be appropriate but because the song has a secular or non-Catholic origin? I have never read that.
 
po18guy said:
happy clappy sappy schlock
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This is a personal opinion. What you consider “happy clappy sappy schlock” is very likely considered “joyful and uplifting” by others.

In the same way, my opinion of chant is just that–my opinion. I consider it a-melodic and random, while others consider it sublime and heavenly. Opinions.

The Church has declared a preference for chant, but the Church has not forbade “joyful and uplifting music.” This conflict over music does no good to anyone.
 
Well said, my fellow “fed up”!
  1. “Me too” is not how to promote or profess the Gospel.
  2. Let the grandeur of sacred music speak for itself - that alone is attractive.
  3. It seems in some cases that we have become all frosting and no cake.
  4. Does anyone think the Orthodox sing “Go tell it on the mountain” at their Divine Liturgy?
  5. I am not a Latin Mass guy, but I understand the revulsion of those who have watched the degradation of reverence in the Novus Ordo.
  6. My posts seem like stream of consciousness ranting, but numbered points lend some coherence.
  7. Maybe…
 
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o_senhor_falado said:
Should I just let it go and worry about more important things
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Yes. A song is meant for aiding in the worship and praise of God and celebration of the Eucharist. What may not be a “liturgical” song to you, may deeply touch someone else.
 
A lot of opinions can be difficult for pastors as well.
 
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I am a musician for a small parish. The church provides the music ministry with several planning guides to help us pick out songs each week. The song Good Good Father is right there in the Liturgy Planning Guide that came from Oregon Catholic Press. That’s where our hymnals come from.
 
I grew up being deeply touched by a number of songs in Mass. Some were what many would call “acceptable” in a Catholic church, some were the " protestant songs" all came from the hymnal put out by the church.

My question is this. If a song at Mass is sung about God and how He loves us, is there for us, how he is good in all of his ways, knows what we need before we know, sung after say, communion(imo this is where the song Good, Goid Father would be appropriate) then, please tell me why it is inappropriate other than “because it’s a protestant song.” Music is a form of prayer. What if a doubting parishoner NEEDS to hear those words? I guess then the Director of Liturgy/music should skip past that song in the hymnal?
 
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I have the same issue.
Amazing Grace is anti Catholic theologically and A Mighty Fortress is Our God was written by an excommunicated heretic, and the song was played as they plundered Catholic villages during the 30 years war.
 
So all the Wesley hymns are gone, including such Mass staples as “Love Divine All Loves Excelling” and "Christ the Lord is Risen Today.

How about “Lift High The Cross”–gone. Protestant author.

And Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee–rip it out. Protestant author.

etc. etc.

I for one would hate to see these great hymns gone. I think that rather than fixating on the differences between Protestants and Catholics, we would do well do think about all the beliefs that we share in common, and to remember that according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Protestants are not “anathema,” but rather, they are our separated brethren, with a hope of heaven because of the trinitarian Baptism that many of them have chosen to submit to.
 
This is not true.

First, you have left out many Protestant churches that still stick with the traditional liturgy, e.g., the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Covenant, the Congregationalists, etc.

MANY of the Evangelical Protestant churches offer contemporary and traditional worship services, and the traditional worship services usually follow the traditional liturgy, which is very similar to the Mainline Protestant church services, which are very similar to the Catholic Mass liturgy. The biggest difference is that there is no “dialogue” in many Evangelical Protestant churches–no “The Lord Be With You” followed by “And With Your Spirit.” type dialogue. And the Creed is rarely recited (or read).

The definition of liturgy is “a form or formulary according to which public religious worship, especially Christian worship, is conducted.”

The Catholic Church does not hold the corner on the word “liturgy.”

Many MANY Protestant denominations still offer worship services that follow a form, and in many of these denominations, the liturgy is still recognizable as similar to the Catholic and Mainline Protestant liturgy–an opening prayer, an offering, a sermon, a communion service (although admittedly these are becoming rarer in many Protestant denominations, sometimes done only a few times a year), the singing of hymns–in other words, following the Acts 2:42 liturgy of worship.

I play piano/organ in these churches, and they are not so very different. (I wouldn’t be playing piano and organ in the Protestant churches that have abandoned traditional liturgy–they make large use of the Praise and Worship musicians/band and the traditional hymns are not sung).

Even the non-denominational Protestant churches follow a “form” in their worship services.

The only non-Catholic church that I know of that doesn’t follow a liturgy is the Quakers, who hold “meetings,” and sit in silence until someone is led to speak.
 
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Prodigal1984 said:
A Mighty Fortress is Our God was written by an excommunicated heretic,
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Have you actually READ the words to “A Mighty Fortress is Our God”?

It is a hymn that Catholics would do well to take to heart. It is incredibly uplifting and encouraging. Who CARES that the author was a heretic? He was also a Catholic priest, and therefore, still has a hope of heaven because of his baptism. The HYMN is NOT heretical at all.

As for Amazing Grace, you are choosing to nitpick and dwell on one phrase and choose the worst interpretation of that phrase. Step back and look at the entire elephant, not just one part.
 
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I’ve just read through your documents (which I have read before).

They make me sad. What I hear you saying, and what I read in those documents, is that the vast majority of Catholic parishes are using music that is inappropriate for the liturgy. The priests and bishops who are approving this music are wrong. The people who like the music are thinking not about Jesus, but about “me, I, us.”

Is this what you’re really saying?

If so, then it’s no wonder that people, including many Catholics, have such a cynical attitude towards the Church and even reject the Church outright. If the priests and bishops can’t get “music” right, then how can they be trusted to give correct answers about marriage, sexual orientation, raising children, etc.? If we’re doing all the music “wrong,” then are we doing everything else in the Church “wrong,” too?

I hope you see what I’m saying. If you and all those who read and live by those documents are correct, then all the rest of us are living in rebellion, and that’s so sad. I am actually crying about this. It’s sad that music is being used to drive people AWAY from trusting in their priests, their Church, and even God.

I’m very sorry about all this. Music wars have always been part of Christianity, but it’s so awful when we get caught up in the battle and tender-hearted, well-meaning, sincere Christians are hurt. I have to play for a concert this weekend, and I’m hoping that I will have the heart to do it. At this point, I’m tempted to stop doing music in my parish and other Catholic parishes and attend the Mass that has no music (6:30 a.m. Sunday). If what you say is true, then my mind and heart are warped because I love a lot of the “happy clappy schlock” songs and the glorious Protestant hymns that we currently sing in our Masses in parishes throughout our city. It would do me good to never play or sing in a Catholic parish again–a form of penance, right?

The only problem is, many people would be very upset if I no longer played. But they’re all wrong too, aren’t they?
 
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o_senhor_falado said:
I’ve been debating whether or not to talk to our priest about it.
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If you feel particularly strongly about it, that might be a reasonable thing to do. But I think it is best to do it in a nice manner and not ‘all guns blazing’. Do it with charity and with the assumption that the priest did not choose the hymns. And expect that for the priest, the choice of hymns may not be seen by him as a priority.
 
I’ve been to a few churches like that here where we just moved and I decided to never go back to those. We found one that followed more of a traditional approach to the Mass. I personally didn’t appreciate see a karaoke screen and a guy dancing around while playing his guitar at Mass especially during communion part. If I want one of those services I will go to the local Christian church down the street…
 
HopkinsReb said:
I cannot stand Protestants who hate, say, Crucifixes because they’re “too Catholic.” The reverse from the Catholic side, hatred of something benign because it’s associated with Protestantism, is equally silly.
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That’s what I was going to say.
 
I’m not a singer.

I don’t know what Agni Parthene means. Something about the Lamb? So I looked it up–viirgin most pure?

Earlier someone said that we aren’t supposed to be singing Marian songs in the Mass. Really?

I agree with you that the song is beautiful even though I couldn’t understand the words (which happens a lot with contemporary music, too), but don’t you see? It is beyond what most of us are capable of singing.

Imagine it being sung through the nose, or with a chest voice, and with diphthongs and breathiness and “slides.” Or an octave lower, which many older women and men do because they can’t sing in their normal range anymore.

And it doesn’t sound like something that is supposed to be sung by a congregation, but rather, but a soloist.

(name removed by moderator), it’s no use, sir! In the U.S., most people cannot sing worth two hoots because of the very poor music education they receive in school, and because most of the music they listen to out of church is pop, rock, country, RandB, or hip-hop! Some people listen to the “oldies” of all the genres I listed–have you listened to any “old-time” country music lately?! (I love it, BTW.)

We’ve picked up horrible singing habits, and most people don’t know how to leave their secular singing techniques in the car before they walk into the nave!

In certain cities and towns, where there is a college or university with a good music program and lots of students and professors who need a place to use their skills and knowledge, I think that traditional Catholic Mass music might work, although I fear that it would be a “performance” for many of the Mass attendees who can no longer sing along, but must only listen to the “trained singers.” An enjoyable performance, to be sure, but…

For most of us, we don’t have the people in our cites and towns who have the chops to do this kind of music. We just don’t. And especially if they aren’t paid well for it.

Thanks for trying. If I am totally wrong and your parish is successfully doing “traditional music” according to the documents that were posted earlier in this thread–tell me about it. How did it come to be? Thanks.
 
No, you’re not being oversensitive. It’s a garbage song, saccharine and nearly worthless. It has no place in Holy Mass. Not only because it’s fairly shallow lyrics, but because it is low quality music as well. I would say talk to your priest, sure, but I don’t think much will happen. It isn’t usually the priest who chooses hymns, I don’t think. Time to find the Susan of the choir.
 
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