Protestant Songs at Mass

[o_senhor_falado]

You’re probably correct. Most likely a Susan behind this. It just seemed so odd because our pastor is extremely orthodox and frequently reminds us during his homilies that we’re Catholic, instructing us on how we can be cordial with our separated brethren yet defend our faith nonetheless. That he personally approved that song for use at mass seems unlikely.

 

[stpurl]

Thaxted. Oh gosh I love that one. The original was part of the Jupiter theme from Gustav Holtz’ The Planets.

 

[Peeps]

Thaxted. Oh gosh I love that one. The original was part of the Jupiter theme from Gustav Holtz’ The Planets.

I love this hymn, too, and I love playing it on the organ rather than piano.

However, it seems that according to some participants in this thread, the hymn should not be sung at Mass, or at least, the melody, which was composed by Gustav Holst. Here’s the scoop on his “religion,” which is definitely NOT Catholic:

Gustav was not conventionally religious. He believed strongly in supra-human forces and besides dabbling in astrology, he was much influenced by Eastern religious theory - particularly the doctrines of Dharma and reincarnation.

Yikes–that’s not so good!

So what does everyone think? If we are to eliminate Protestant songs from the Mass, does “O God Beyond All Praising” get jettisoned until a Catholic can fit the lyrics to a “Catholic melody”, or perhaps compose his/her own melody?



My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that Holst’s grand melody fits “O God Beyond All Praising” and the hymn should be left in the Mass and sung often, especially when I am scheduled to play for the Mass so I can play it on our huge pipe organ!

 

[Dlee]

I just listened to Good Good Father. As a newer Catholic, I thought our hymns frowned on songs that focused on “I” and this song is full of I this and I that. I don’t like it, but then I don’t like current protestant songs either. I’m just not into contemporary Christian music.

 

[gracepoole]

o_senhor_falado:

Like I said, maybe I’m being too sensitive and uncharitable. I just can’t stand the thought of the True Church becoming more Protestant in its worship.

You do know that many of the great traditional hymns in the Gather Hymnal, as well as other Catholic hymnals, were written by Protestants?

I’d be super comfortable throwing all the Gather hymnals in the world into a lovely pile bent for the recycling center. I wouldn’t say that collection is a good standard for anything.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Maybe you and other musical purists don’t like it, and thats fine.

But for some of us, Gather is all we know. In fact, the Gather Hymnal (or Breaking Bread) has been the primary source for music in just about every parish in my diocese. And to constantly hear that the music that many of us have worshiped with our whole lives is “Protestant” or only worthy of the recycling pile will not endear us to you or your opinions.

 

[gracepoole]

Maybe you and other musical purists don’t like it, and thats fine.

But for some of us, Gather is all we know. In fact, the Gather Hymnal (or Breaking Bread) has been the primary source for music in just about every parish in my diocese. And to constantly hear that the music that many of us have worshiped with our whole lives is “Protestant” or only worthy of the recycling pile will not endear us to you or your opinions.

Eh, I don’t know that I’m necessarily a “purist.” And I’ve always had the Gather hymnal in my parishes. That doesn’t mean it contains great music. For the most part, it doesn’t.

As for endearing you to my opinions, why would I want or need to?

 

[Peeps]

Maybe you and other musical purists don’t like it, and thats fine.

But for some of us, Gather is all we know. In fact, the Gather Hymnal (or Breaking Bread) has been the primary source for music in just about every parish in my diocese. And to constantly hear that the music that many of us have worshiped with our whole lives is “Protestant” or only worthy of the recycling pile will not endear us to you or your opinions.

I think this comment deserves respect and careful consideration by critics of “new music.”

One of the reasons why it is so difficult to convince people that their music is “banal” or “not worthy of the liturgy” is that they grew up associating certain music with “Mass” and “Jesus” and “Church,” and they love this music and find it completely different in style and content than secular music.

No one wants to be told that their Mass music sounds “secular” or “isn’t worthy of the Holy Mass,” especially when they grew up hearing that music at Mass and have many precious memories of Mass, receiving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, receiving the Sacraments of Confirmation and perhaps also Marriage, and of course, seeing loved ones given up to God at funeral Masses.

They KNOW that the Mass music they have heard all their lives is, indeed, appropriate and that it truly glorifies Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[stpurl]

Not exactly. As you noted all the way up to the last paragraph, they FEEL the music is appropriate because they have EXPERIENCED it in ‘appropriate settings’, i.e. liturgy.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if the average Catholic music between 1970 and today had been of the disco genre, you would have people ranging in age from children to 70 somethings who associated “I will Survive” (with appropriate Catholic words of course) with being perfectly wonderful, appropriate, happy memories, etc.

Now, I do not say that the music in the Church over the last 50 years has been cringeworthiliy awful, every single piece, etc. But there are pieces (and pieces which as you say often have the most heartfelt, warm, fuzzy, ‘I love you God’ feelings) that are just not right. And honestly, it’s not disrespectful to say so. Not every piece of music ever written is suitable for every venue (do you really want, for example, to have an elementary school song of ‘99 bottles of beer"), and we wouldn’t usually play the Beer Barrel Polka when we are introducing a foreign head of state. It just seems that ‘inclusive’ has been taken to mean, when it comes to Catholic music ‘for church’, that by golly, if it ‘tugs the heartstrings’ for SOMEBODY, it ‘must be right for worship’ because God loves us’. . .

Sigh.

 

[Jen95]

Maybe you and other musical purists don’t like it, and thats fine.

But for some of us, Gather is all we know. In fact, the Gather Hymnal (or Breaking Bread) has been the primary source for music in just about every parish in my diocese. And to constantly hear that the music that many of us have worshiped with our whole lives is “Protestant” or only worthy of the recycling pile will not endear us to you or your opinions.

That’s the whole tragedy – a couple of generations have been taught that this is good quality Catholic music. That’s all they’ve known, and they think the 70s songs are good and holy. Meanwhile we are deprived of the true glory of centuries of great Catholic music (and yes, newly composed high-quality liturgical music), and it is displaced by Haugen et al.

 

[Peeps]

they think the 70s songs are good and holy. Meanwhile we are deprived of the true glory of centuries of great Catholic music (and yes, newly composed high-quality liturgical music), and it displaced by Haugen et al.

This sounds a tad condescending. It sounds to me that you think others have no mental ability to figure out which music is good and holy.

I can perhaps agree a little with you if the people referred to are isolated from society, living in a poor or remote area where they cannot receive television, radio, or internet signals, and they don’t have opportunities to hear free, low-cost, or more expensive concerts by a variety of musicians.

That being said, most people in the U.S. who are interested in music have the opportunity to become educated about music on their own time and on their own dime.

In this day and age, people of all ages have the option of hearing many different styles of music and artists and songs on various media, as well as in real life, and also to discuss the music with others either in real life or online.

There are a few public and private schools, and many home schools, where music literature, history, and appreciation are being taught with expertise. The lucky students who attend these schools have the chops to be able to evaluate church music and arrive at an educated decision about appropriateness.

Also, many Catholics are able to travel, and will attend Mass (hopefully!) at parishes where they may have the opportunity to the “true glory of centuries of great Catholic music”, including the “newly composed high-quality liturgical music.”

So it’s realistic to think that church attendees, including Catholics, have heard the ancient forms of Catholic music and had the chance to listen to Masses that have this kind of music.

And yet, we continue to appreciate and even love our Haugen, Haas, et. al hymns.

We simply cannot dismiss the importance of the “family traditions.” When people grow up with something, they can’t just let it go because someone else tells them it’s “poor quality” or “not reverent enough.” Yes, even if the “someone else” is an old Church document that is possibly not even authoritative. Yes–it’s possible that these documents condemning all music but chant and sacred polyphony have been displaced by newer documents. It happens constantly in the Church over various disciplines–and music is a discipline, not a doctrine or dogma. It CAN be changed by the Church authorities under the Authority of the Lord Jesus.

 

[CilladeRoma]

This sounds a tad condescending.

Not a tad, but heaps of condescension.
I have very eclectic taste when it comes to music. Everything from Bach to Metallica.
I also sing, read music and spent 4 years in a competition choir singing a lot of what most here at CAF consider “appropriate” sacred music.
To be constantly told that what is comforting, familiar and spiritually uplifting is “banal”, Protestant and more appropriate for the trash heap is the height of arrogance and a perfect example of the “clericaliztion of the laity”, who think the know better than their Pastors and Bishops.

 

[CTBcin]

Not a tad, but heaps of condescension.
I have very eclectic taste when it comes to music. Everything from Bach to Metallica.
I also sing, read music and spent 4 years in a competition choir singing a lot of what most here at CAF consider “appropriate” sacred music.
To be constantly told that what is comforting, familiar and spiritually uplifting is “banal”, Protestant and more appropriate for the trash heap is the height of arrogance and a perfect example of the “clericaliztion of the laity”, who think the know better than their Pastors and Bishops.

I have to respectfully disagree here. I too have ecletic tastes in music, also liking everything from Bach to Metallica (rock on!). But I also believe everything has its place. As beautiful as Mozart’s Requiem is, for example, I’m not sure that it’s appropriate for Mass; however, it can be great for the concert hall and private meditation. On the other hand, while certain contemporary songs like “Good, Good Father” might be efficacious to some people and would work well at a youth conference or praise and worship session, I again don’t find it fitting for the Mass.

I don’t think what @Jen95 was really condescending, particularly because it’s true. The reality is that the vast majority of Catholics in the parish have simply never been exposed to their own nearly 2000 year musical heritage. Though the liturgical movement worked throughout the early 20th century to revitalize the musical heritage of the Church, it was almost wholly thrown out in the late 60s-early 70s, which is a real shame. I certainly don’t think it’s condescending to point that out.

So what is the solution? I think it’s complicated. I don’t advocate completely throwing out Haugen and the Gather hymns, because they can be efficacious and appropriate at some points of the Mass, and they’re what people know. But I do think a revitalization in church music should include exposing people to the beauty of the Church’s vast tradition of sacred music. There’s so much beauty there that so few people have been exposed to. And I think that priests should catechize their parish on the history and meaning of the Church’s musical treasury, ranging from the early Church to the modern day, so that the people can better understand their musical heritage and pray the Mass more fruitfully through their participation in the musical life of the parish.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I’m just trying to bridge the gaps between posters here who have vastly different views in regards to music. The real world solution is much more complicated than “Let’s throw out all the modern stuff and go back to Gregorian chant” or “Gather was good enough in the past, so there’s no need for anything else.” (Of course, I’m highly generalizing two extreme positions).

 

[stpurl]

There is no need to throw out ‘all’ the Gather stuff. But let’s face it, there is also no need to insist on ‘nothing but Gather because we like it’ either.

I don’t know when exactly the modern, specifically US, humans decided that everything that happens in "their church is supposed to be there solely for the ‘likes’ of either the pastor, the most ‘influential’ members, or some ‘majority rules’. Regardless, it is a terrible way to address the Church’s function and especially the way the people themselves receive and transmit the Catholic apostolic faith. Surely we’ve had enough years to see that by now.

I challenge anyone here to show (and heaven knows there are enough surveys and enough data out there) to show that, compared to the average English-speaking Catholic in 1950, that the average English-speaking Catholic of today has anywhere near the knowledge of the faith, that the average Catholic today does ‘more’ with regard to practicing the faith, including Mass attendance, reception of Reconciliation, engagement in common widespread devotions, etc.

I’ll hear, “Correlation does not imply causation’”.

True, but neither does it rule out a role, often a major role.

The average Catholic (unlike CAF members who are usually here because they DO know more, and try to live more Catholic lives) is in a terrible state.

If the Mass change in 1970 was to help us ‘understand’, it has failed dismally for the majority of American Catholics.

 

[stpurl]

part 2
If the accoutrements of the Mass were meant to have those newly ‘better understanding Catholics’ have the tools to evangelize through their own grasp of the faith and through making things more attractive, ie, “no more Latin mumbo jumbo dirges, we rock on”, they too have failed dismally.

Because when it comes to modern praise and worship music, the Protestants have beat us hollow. Because they themselves (honorable and worthy as they are individually) lack the True Presence and the Sacrifice of the Mass, what they have in Praise and worship music is essentially sensual–meant to arouse the senses and through emotion lead that emotional fervor toward God.

Catholics, with the True Presence and the Sacrifice, do not lack emotion, but they have already, in the Mass, especially the TLM, the senses already engaged and thus the music, especially chant, is acting to balance those emotions and to present a complete, ‘emotional/reason’ worship. We harness the senses to reason rather than let the senses ‘carry themselves to a place beyond sense’, i.e God.

And that’s why the majority of music which has been written, and usually in a Protestant or a secular format in order to appeal to the senses already responding to that type of words/music in the secular area, from the folk tunes to the sentimental ballads popular in the 1960s-1990s, may be ‘appealing’ to people, but is not suitable for liturgical worship in the Mass.

And that is not being elitist or condescending.

Back in the day, when popular music was going the rounds, it was entirely righteous (LOL) for a composer to take a theme (of course the music itself wasn’t polyphony then) and work the theme into the Mass. But it wasn’t, for example, like taking the theme from Indiana Jones and having the people sing something like, “Gl-glo-glory, glo-ri-a, Gl-gl-glory, Gl-gl-gl-Glo Ri A”, but more like having those notes, in that order but with other notes/ words between, a few notes at a time, interspersed with chant on a one or two note theme, but that people over the course of the whole Mass would ‘hear’ a couple of notes that would ‘remind them’ of the popular song that was being sung. Sacred music can still be written.

It is just, for a plethora of reasons, for the last 50 years or so it hasn’t been written WELL, for the most part.

It’s time to ‘get over it’.
There was a lot of popular music written in the late 19th and early 20th century. How much is left today? and how about before then? Some were ‘great hits’ then, but unheard of now. People move on.

It strikes me as mildly puzzling that many of the same people who sneer at ‘trads’ for wanting to keep ‘ancient things’ at Mass are the same people who, in AD 2019, want to keep the 1970s and 80s music at Mass. Come on, guys, I’ve lived through those decades. Musically they weren’t all that great, theologically they were pretty much a bust. Let it go. . .

 

[Peeps]

So what is the solution? I think it’s complicated. I don’t advocate completely throwing out Haugen and the Gather hymns, because they can be efficacious and appropriate at some points of the Mass, and they’re what people know. But I do think a revitalization in church music should include exposing people to the beauty of the Church’s vast tradition of sacred music. There’s so much beauty there that so few people have been exposed to. And I think that priests should catechize their parish on the history and meaning of the Church’s musical treasury, ranging from the early Church to the modern day, so that the people can better understand their musical heritage and pray the Mass more fruitfully through their participation in the musical life of the parish.

I can go along with this, except for the part about the priests catechizing their congregations.

One problem with this is that most priests that I have known since converting in 2004 don’t seem to know much about church music history and all the various church documents giving instructions on music.

Or maybe they do, but they got badly burned at some point trying to convince a hostile group and so they made a decision that the Music Hill isn’t worth dying on.

So it seems to me that it would be more appropriate for the Church Music Director to educate the parish, assuming that the Church Music Director has the education and qualifications to do this. (I know that in many parishes in our neck of the woods, the Music Director is a volunteer layperson.).

Of course, the Diocese probably has a music/liturgy specialist on staff, who could take on the task of educating parishes throughout the diocese, or producing a series of videos (that should be available online) for the entire diocese.

In many areas of the country, the American Guild of Organists has members who would enjoy teaching a parish about music history–they would expect to be paid, and not just a pittance.

I really can’t see a series of lectures, with demonstrations by church musicians attracting much of a crowd. Probably the people who would show up would be people who already know a lot about church music history and don’t need the education, but instead, need the “Go Ahead!” to be able to start the schola, or start teaching the choir, especially the children’s choir (if there is a parish school) all about chant.

Could the lectures (or videos) and demonstrations be required? Is that ever done in Catholic parishes? Or could they be shown during Mass, just like the “Diocesan Appeal” video is shown during Mass? That would be a good way to educate people, but is it appropriate for Mass?

So what I’m questioning here is the nuts and bolts—HOW shall the people be educated?

And what do you do when the education is complete, and the people are lukewarm towards the “Music of the Church?”

 

[Peeps]

thus the music, especially chant, is acting to balance those emotions and to present a complete, ‘emotional/reason’ worship. We harness the senses to reason rather than let the senses ‘carry themselves to a place beyond sense’, i.e God.

I question this.

At one time, before the 1960s and 1970s, chant was probably mainly heard in a religious setting;e.g., the Mass.

But now, at least for older non-Catholics, we’ve heard it in films, television, and occasionally radio, in very non-religious settings.

You say that chant presents a “complete 'emotional/reason” worship". But for those of us who associate chant with horror movies and “eastern religions,” chant is not comfortable at all, but rather–forgive my bluntness–creepy. Scary.

It’s also very random–the lack of a melody bothers me immensely, and does not make me think of the God of Order, but instead, I think of the meaningless of life among those who don’t know God.

Because of my growing up time in American history, which is shared by many other late-born Baby boomers (born in late 1950s-1961), chant does NOT make me think of God and heavenly things.

I hope I’m describing this in a clear way. I know it makes chant-loving Catholics uncomfortable to hear this, but I know that others share my views. It’s not just me, a weirdo.

I wish I could learn to at least tolerate chant. I’ve been Catholic since 2004 now and have heard chant in some beautiful Catholic churches. It just doesn’t help me think of God at all. Just the opposite.

 

[CTBcin]

I think you have some interesting ideas and good questions, and there’s certainly no easy answer. Many younger priests have had a thorough musical education during their time in the seminary, so that helps when it comes to the educational side of things. Priests can attend and/or send their music directors to music and Liturgy conferences as well, for further education. I’ve attended and helped out with several, and they are very good for explaining both the theology of music and practical application. The ones I’ve gone to are always well supported and well attended.
Also, the AGO is great and are a resource I wish more people knew about!

Education and implementation would vary from parish to parish, which makes the nuts-and-bolts part more complicated. Not one size fits all, and some things appropriate for one parish aren’t always appropriate for another. A pastor can write a catechetical series in the bulletin, mention it in homilies, and perhaps offer a weekly series of talks at the parish discussing the history and significance of music in worship. You know, little things. And then he can make small changes in the musical life of his parish- nothing crazy or sweeping. Parishes with the resources could hire a professional choir director and perhaps start a children’s choir if there’s a school (as you’ve mentioned). Children’s choirs with capable leadership can do amazing things.

And what do you do when the education is complete, and the people are lukewarm towards the “Music of the Church?”

I’m not sure that education is ever really complete. These things take time. And for most parishes, it’s never going to be a complete transition to Latin chant or things like that. It will likely be a mix of things. It’s implementing a little bit here and there. And “the music of the Church” is not some monolithic thing- there’s plenty of diversity and opportunities to find what works for different parishes. I’d be willing to bet that for everyone who is lukewarm to chant or other forms of more “traditional” music, there will be those who are enthusiastic about it, or at least find it refreshing to hear something besides Marty Haugen or Dan Shutte.

chant is not comfortable at all, but rather–forgive my bluntness–creepy. Scary.

With all due respect, I’ve never quite understood this perspective. Chant inspires, in me at least, many different emotions- joy, sorrow, peace, etc. The only “scary” chant I can think of is the Dies Irae, and rightfully so! I’m sure that the media and popular culture have played a part in how chant is viewed by most people. It reminds me of how gothic architecture is viewed as dark and foreboding today, even though gothic churches were originally designed to be great cathedrals of light.

 

[Shorter_name]

Well…Me. And basically any Catholic should care…

Why? Can we not forgive and move on?

 

[stpurl]

I was born in 1956, my brother in 1957, most of my friends ditto. NONE of us have the perception of chant that you do. If anything some of them giggle at chant because of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, but seriously, CREEPY?