Protestant Songs at Mass

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A Mighty Fortress Is Our God​

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Luther’s Battle Hymn​

Often called the “Battle Hymn of the Reformation,” Martin Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress” has been translated into almost every known language, and at least eighty different translations have been made into English!

During times when the Reformation seemed lost, Luther would say to his friend Melanchthon, “Let’s sing the Forty-sixth Psalm.” “A Mighty Fortress” draws its inspiration from Psalm 46. Luther wrote at least 35 other hymns. As a young student, Luther earned money to pay his school fees by singing in the streets of Eisenach. Luther played the lute, and singing always was an important part of his life.

"A Mighty Fortress" so captured the spirit of the Protestant Reformation that when Protestant emigrants were forced into exile or martyrs went to their death, “A Mighty Fortress” always seemed to be the song they chose to sing.

 
Lol so in essence we are singing the Battle hymn of the Reformation at Mass and I seriously see Catholics on here defending that. I must be in a twilight zone.
 
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That’s right - - Gregorian chant is too creepy, so replace it with the Battle Hymn of the Protestant Reformation. I wonder what the angels surrounding us at Mass are thinking?
 
CTBcin said:
I’m sure that the media and popular culture have played a part in how chant is viewed by most people. It reminds me of how gothic architecture is viewed as dark and foreboding today, even though gothic churches were originally designed to be great cathedrals of light.
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You’ve nailed it. Exactly. Many of us have grown up in a media age, and we have not escaped the influence of television and film.

I recently (last few years or so) attended a Mass where one of the more famous chants was used–and a few days later, I was watching a movie on Svengoolie-and the SAME CHANT was used as the background music. Yi yi yi!
 
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Jen95 said:
That’s right - - Gregorian chant is too creepy, so replace it with the Battle Hymn of the Protestant Reformation. I wonder what the angels surrounding us at Mass are thinking?
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Please re-read my post.

i did NOT say that Gregorian chant is creepy.

i said that I personally find it creepy. The onus is on ME, not the chant. It’s my bad.

And I said that I wish I could like chant. But I don’t really know how to disassociate chant from horror movies and eastern mysticism. It’s just the reaction I have because it’s what I knew growing up and during my teen years in the 1960s and early 1970s.

Please don’t make fun of me. Everyone has foibles and quirks that have been formed in them as a results of their upbringing.

And I can certainly understand why Catholics find A Mighty Fortress upsetting. But please, please, read the words to the ENTIRE hymn. And please believe me when I say that in our Evangelical churches, we never, ever EVER thought of this hymn as a “Reformation” hymn. We assumed that the hymn was telling the story of the spiritual battles that every Christian goes through.
 
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The music adds another dimension, probably tapping different emotions, from just sitting there having a service without any music. I think you’d be having an emotional reaction to the songs.
 
That’s the point I was trying to make earlier – if Catholics had heard chant hundreds of times at Mass during all their churchgoing years, maybe they wouldn’t associate it primarily with horror movies.
I might be wrong but I thought you were in charge of music somehow. My bad.
 
Peeps said:
eastern mysticism.
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I’m sorry but how is Gregorian Chant, which came into existence in the middle ages, gets its name from Pope Saint Gregory the Great, and is about as Roman Catholic of music as one can really ask for…eastern mysticism?
 
This subject hits home for me. Protestant music is one of the reasons I attend the Latin Mass. It’s all a part of what I perceive to be the Protestantization of the Church. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. I believe it’s at least partially responsible for the sharp drop in Mass attendance we see today. We’re losing our Catholic identity. The fact that most Catholics have.become quite comfortable with this new “make over” is stunning. But maybe it’s just me.
 
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I belong to a Choir in our Parish here in the Philippines. Not all songs can be sung in our liturgy. Only Liturgical Songs or Sacred Songs for Liturgy can be sung. Documents from the Vatican defines this, Sacrosanctum Concilium (2nd Vatican Council) and Musicam Sacram (Post-Conciliar Document).

There is a difference between Inspirational and Liturgical Music/Songs. So even if the songs are well written, we cannot sing them during liturgical celebrations especially during Eucharistic celebrations of the Mass.

So I agree with you that the song is highly inappropriate for the liturgy but let us not turn to anger as we all commit mistakes too. We can actually correct them as our Lord had taught us, brotherly correction.

I hope this helps. God bless!
 
Jen95 said:
I might be wrong but I thought you were in charge of music somehow. My bad.
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No, I’m not in charge.

I work full time in a hospital lab. I play piano and organ in my parish on a substitute basis–when the Music/Liturgy Director is on vacation or ill. I sub not only in my parish,but in several Catholic parishes in my diocese. I also play piano or organ for Protestant churches when I am available.

There are so many churches and parishes that have no instrumental music because there are no musicians available. All the musicians I know are playing in multiple churches every Sunday.

And I play for several choirs, groups, soloists, schools, and occasional community theaters in my city, including the Children’s Choir in my parish (through the parish school).

I am involved with the local music scene in several ways besides just playing. I know pretty much everyone who’s involved in music and they know me–we have a very old music club in our city that almost every musician gets involved with.

I chair an annual scholarship competition for children/teens (the 59th this year!) I am a member of our local AGO Chapter, where I help out with various outreaches. For years I produced a large holiday ice show that attracted 10,000 schoolchildren to daytime performances.

And just recently, I and another Catholic woman formed a musical duo and we just presented our first concert yesterday afternoon–very well-received and I think we will find plenty of opportunities to serve people in musical ministry. (She also works full time in a non-musical job.)

So yes, I’m a busy musician, but strictly part-time, and other than the scholarship competition, I have no supervisory position in music. Just a helper monkey!
 
Prodigal1984 said:
I’m sorry but how is Gregorian Chant, which came into existence in the middle ages, gets its name from Pope Saint Gregory the Great, and is about as Roman Catholic of music as one can really ask for… eastern mysticism?
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Because eastern mystics “chant” during their cermonies, and so do various occult groups.

I’m sure that to knowledgeable people, the chants sound very different, but to me and others, the chants sound very similar.
 
In the Mass we should have hymns that are Liturgical Music as opposed to hymns of Devotional Music or Pastoral Music. Liturgical Music is universal, the hymns should not be about the individual but the Assembly. The Vatican has a few documents that cover the suitable types of music for Liturgies.
The definitions of these are
Devotional Music
music that enables expression of one’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ through song. This music is often focused on one’s immediate needs and concerns and can be free form in nature.

Liturgical Music
music that is used within liturgical worship. This seeks to take the individual beyond their own concerns to be immersed in the prayer of the universal Church. This music focuses on the Paschal mystery and how it unfolds over the liturgical year.

There is a very good document called 'Sing to the Lord: Music in Divine Worship by USCCB , 2007.
It covers different kinds of music for the Liturgy.

Looking at the lyrics of Good Good Father, it would come under the classification as a Devotional Hymn. It is not that suitable in a Liturgical setting if it was used anywhere within the Mass, rather then the Recessional Hymn.
 
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cspb56 said:
If you follow that line of thought, then we shouldn’t sing Marian songs at mass as they are devotional.
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Loud living dogma is correct in the definitions of Liturgical Music as compared to Sacred Concert Music, Devotional Music and Pastoral Music. These definitions are the Church guidelines for Liturgical Music for the Mass.

@CTBcin Mozarts requeim, Schuberts Ava Maria etc, all very sacred and very beautiful. They fall under the Sacred Concert Music definition. That is because the Assembly would be very stretched in singing them as a Hymn. So they are really Hymns to be listened to. One of the definitions of liturgical Music, or a requirement if you like, is that the Assembly should be able to join in most of it.

Here is a link to Sing to the Lord
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacred-art-and-music/sacred-music/index.cfm

And this is also very good ‘Liturgy as an Art and a Craft’
http://www.usccb.org/about/divine-worship/stewards-of-the-tradition-part-4.cfm

Amazing Grace as a Hymn comes under the definition of Devotional Hymns. Regardless of its theology it is not Liturgical in its character.
 
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OurLadyofSorrows said:
CTBcin Mozarts requeim, Schuberts Ava Maria etc, all very sacred and very beautiful. They fall under the Sacred Concert Music definition. That is because the Assembly would be very stretched in singing them as a Hymn. So they are really Hymns to be listened to. One of the definitions of liturgical Music, or a requirement if you like, is that the Assembly should be able to join in most of it.
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Oh no doubt, they’re beautiful. Schubert’s Ave Maria works well as a meditation during Mass. My reason for saying that Mozart’s Requiem would probably not be all that appropriate has more to do with its length, theatric style, and impracticality, not so much with the congregation’s ability or inability to sing it.

It is absolutely not a definition or requirement of liturgical music that it be able to be sung by most of the assembly. This would mean that most Gregorian chant is not liturgical music, which is absurd. The Church has always reaffirmed that Gregorian chant has pride of place in the Liturgy. Sacrosanctum Concilium and other documents try to balance the tradition of chant with the notion of active participation, particularly the exterior participation of singing. And it’s not an easy balance. But I have a Gregorian Missal, which is more or less the official liturgical music of the Church (it contains the proper chants for each day of the year), and the music in there would be inaccessible for most people.

In regards to Sing to the Lord, I have read it. It’s so wishy-washy and vague that it doesn’t really add much to the discussion. If I wanted to have a discussion on the Church’s directives regarding liturgical music, I’d consult the GIRM and reference Sacrosanctum Concilium.
 
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CTBcin said:
It is absolutely not a definition or requirement of liturgical music that it be able to be sung by most of the assembly.
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I have to disagree here based on the definitions of Liturgical music. One of its aspects is that the Assembly joins in. So if the Assembly is one that is learning or good with chant, then the definition works. The role of the Music ministry is to lead the Assembly in the musical aspects of the liturgy. That might and often does require stepping up to a teaching role. There , if the Mass Assembly was to do Chant, then the Music Ministry would have to step up and teach it. The Responsorial Psalm is often a response to the chanted verses.
I have posted the definition of Liturgical Music that comes directly from the glossary of one of the Catholic Universities in USA.

A liturgical setting for a chant might be a Mass in a Monastery. The Assembly would have some proficiency in Chant or would be learning.
Full and active participation in the Mass is also a requirement for the Assembly. Therefore the music is required to accommodate this. We don’t set songs in high soprano A flats or Schubert for that reason, or we shouldn’t.

The topic of this thread is are Protestant Songs ok at Mass, in specifics the song ‘Good good Father’ . Is it liturgical? No, based on the definitions provided. What do you think? Why would it be liturgical or not?
 
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