Protestant teaching of Mary

[Limoncello4021]

No, the verse is directly aimed at Mary. Take your blinders off and open your very closed heart a bit.

 

[po18guy]

Why would he hate it to the point of hurling ad hominem when I state that we can debate intellect but not ego?

“Outting” himself perhaps?

 

[Francis]

(Matthew 1:25, which actually implies the opposite of perpetual virginity),

Not necessarily its which way you interpret the scriptures.

where does Scripture imply Mary’s perpetual virginity?

Song of Solomon 4:7 You (Mary) are all fair, my love; there is no flaw(sin) in you

Proverbs 8:22 The Lord(Heavenly Father) created me (Mother Mary) at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth—26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil.27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,so that the waters might not transgress his command,when he marked out the foundations of the earth,30 then I (Mary) was beside him, like a master worker;and I (Mary )was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.32 “And now, my children, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways.33 Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.34 Happy is the one who listens to me (Mary)

Isaiah 66; 7 before she was in labor she gave birth; Before her pain came upon her she delivered a son.8 who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be delivered in one moment? Yet as soon as Zion (Mother Mary) was in labor she delivered her children.9 shall I open the womb and not deliver? Says the Lord; shall I, the one who delivers, shut the womb? Says your God.

 

[Francis]

Good protestants use the Bible to know what God says about any question

Sorry Never met one nor the bible says so…
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

Nowhere does the Bible elevate Mary in any way other than being obedient to the will of God. If God did intend to raise Mary to some sort of special position in heaven you’d think that God’s Son would have been in on that plan. In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus gently rebukes a woman who tried to bless her or elevate her as someone special.

he does elevate Mary The Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth and testifying about Mother Mary. Remember with out the holy Spirit no one can say Lord
John 9:31 says we know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will. Which Mother did, co-operated by doing His Will in Luke 1:38. Lk 1:28, 30 – angel: “full of grace, found favor with God Lk 1:42 – Elizabeth: “most blessed among women” Lk 1:48 – Mary: “all generations will call me blessed” Mother of God Lk 1:43 – Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God. 21 Matthew 7:21“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus gently rebukes a woman who tried to bless her or elevate her as someone special.

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
Luke 11:28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

No wrong interpretation of Scripture ,Jesus gave a example of Mary who did the will of god in Lk1:38

I wouldn’t spend anymore time worshipping Mary and start reading and obeying the word of God.

False claim ,remember Mary did the will of god in Luke 1:38 not you and i

 

[JonNC]

What? False witness?

Yes.

Luther was clearly and obviously mentally unstable.

Based on what medical diagnosis?

He describes what we would very likely know today as manic depression. Have you not read the crude, profane and calumnious rantings of Luther against those who dared oppose him?

And Melanchthon made a diagnosis?
Have you read some of the calumnies written by Eck and others about Luther and his colleagues?

It is long past time for you to lose your virulent and heavily ingrained anti-Catholicism!

You can’t find an anti-Catholic post from me. You can find, OTOH, many posts from me over the past decade defending the Catholic Church.

Are you completely ignorant of the Orthodox rejection of the “reformation” on purely doctrinal grounds? Haven’t seen you on any Orthodox forums ranting that they are violating commandments.

Bingo! Make the argument from scripture and Tradition, not from accusations of mental instability or “arrogance and massive egos”.

 

[JonNC]

Mary was foreshadowed in the Book of Judith - the story of a celibate Jewish woman/widow whose single-handed accepting of great personal risk saved Israel from death by dehydration when surrounded by the Assyrian army. She not only struck the head of the Assyrian General, Holofernes, she lopped it off with his own sword.

Once she exited the Assyrian camp - her body undefiled, she and her servant carried the head of Holofernes back as proof. The Assyrians fled in terror and confusion upon finding that their leader had been defeated by a single woman.

For her act of heroism, Judith was praised (Judith 13:18-20):

And Uzzi′ah said to her, “O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God
above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the
heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the
leader of our enemies. Your hope will never depart from the hearts of men,
as they remember the power of God. May God grant this to be a perpetual
honor to you, and may he visit you with blessings, because you did not spare
your own life when our nation was brought low, but have avenged our ruin,
walking in the straight path before our God.” And all the people said,
“So be it, so be it!”

Amen. This is a beautiful post, Po, on topic and to the point.
Any Christian who hasn’t read Judith, the other dueterocanonical books and Prayer of Manasseh have an incomplete understanding of scripture.

 

[mcq72]

But of course, protestant bibles long ago excised this book. That is, as they say, another story.

Yes, just as Catholics excised books from the Septuaguint, and properly so.

 

[mcq72]

the other dueterocanonical books and Prayer of Manasseh have an incomplete understanding of scripture.

While it is a nice type of Mary, even reaffirming, it does not add or “complete” to the understanding of Mary being blessed.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

the other dueterocanonical books and Prayer of Manasseh have an incomplete understanding of scripture.

While it is a nice type of Mary, even reaffirming, it does not add or “complete” to the understanding of Mary being blessed.

But I said it adds to a complete understanding of scripture, not the Blessed Virgin Mary

 

[Francis]

Some other supporting passages that show that elevating saints and popes as ones to be worshipped is wrong. And whether or not Catholics call it worship or veneration or anything else, accepting worship like the pope does is taking glory from God and giving it to yourself. See Acts 12:21-23

Acts 12:21 On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them. 22 The people kept crying out, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Both Peter (supposedly the first pope) and Paul rejected the worship of men. See Acts 10:25-26 - Peter and Acts 14:11-15 - Paul (emphasis on v 14-15)

Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.”

Act 14:11 When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” 12 And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. 14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out 15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Again False claim and ignorance of Catholic teaching.2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, not any tom dick and harry

2 Peter 1:20-21 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. Scriptures pertaining to the Catholic Doctrines, because you are falsely interpreting the bible like most of the Protestants denominations, it is difficult for your to accept the truth which the Catholic Church follow and which is GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS CHRISH HIMSELF THROUGH HIS TRUE CHURCH AND THE POPE.

Finally Only the Catholic Church has the sole right to interpret the Bible and to correct errors Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

Mark1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

 

[Francis]

I think Hodos explained that the word of God is his authority. He also offered a couple times to do a Bible study with some of you. Take him up on his offer.

Sorry not any tom dick and harry,Jesus has already entrusted Peter and his successors,your to late
2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Jeremiah 3:15 “‘And I will give you shepherds (Popes)after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Isaiah 37:32 for out of Jerusalem (Mary)shall go forth a remnant, and out of Mount Zion(Mary) a band of survivors. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Jude 20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[Francis]

So, if I understand the catholic dogma, this truth was only for Tim and a few others around Paul’s time and now only the pope and people close to him can properly interpret scripture? Correct?

sorry to say your ignorant of catholic basic teachings and wrongly misrepresent it many a a times No it for all and till the end of the world, Hebrews 13: 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

scriptures pertaining to the Catholic Doctrines, because you are falsely interpreting the bible like most of the protestants denominations, it is difficult for your to accept the truth which the Catholic Church follow and which is GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and JESUS CHRISH HIMSELF THROUGH HIS TRUE CHURCH AND THE POPE Matthew 16:16-18 7 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Fellow Catholics, you know I love Mary, but this thread was created by the OP asking what was the “Protestant teaching of Mary”.
Some Protestants were kind enough to respond to the (very overly broad) question.
Other Catholics then responded by getting into protracted apologetics arguments with them.

This is the Non-Catholic Religions forum, folks. It’s supposed to be a place where we can discuss, with respect, Non-Catholic Religions. It is NOT the Apologetics forum and you can’t expect any Non-Catholics to post here if y’all are going to take each post they make as an opportunity to argue with them and tell them how wrong they are.

It causes Protestants and other non-Catholics to become frustrated and stop sharing their perspective, when y’all do that. I know that some Protestants have already quit posting here because they can’t share a view in this Non-Catholic Religions forum (where such views belong) without triggering an argument.

I realize you’re probably not going to stop, but this whole thread to me looks like just a bunch of zeal gone overboard. If the Protestant pops onto a thread where people are asking for Catholic perspective and starts sharing there, then the apologetics are appropriate, but NOT where a thread is specifically asking for Protestant views.

 

[Wannano]

Fellow Catholics, you know I love Mary, but this thread was created by the OP asking what was the “Protestant teaching of Mary”.
Some Protestants were kind enough to respond to the (very overly broad) question.
Other Catholics then responded by getting into protracted apologetics arguments with them.

This is the Non-Catholic Religions forum, folks. It’s supposed to be a place where we can discuss, with respect, Non-Catholic Religions. It is NOT the Apologetics forum and you can’t expect any Non-Catholics to post here if y’all are going to take each post they make as an opportunity to argue with them and tell them how wrong they are.

It causes Protestants and other non-Catholics to become frustrated and stop sharing their perspective, when y’all do that. I know that some Protestants have already quit posting here because they can’t share a view in this Non-Catholic Religions forum (where such views belong) without triggering an argument.

I realize you’re probably not going to stop, but this whole thread to me looks like just a bunch of zeal gone overboard. If the Protestant pops onto a thread where people are asking for Catholic perspective and starts sharing there, then the apologetics are appropriate, but NOT where a thread is specifically asking for Protestant views.

Thank you Tis_Bearself, you are absolutely right. In post 110 I was trying to point out what you have successfully presented. If I as an uninformed non-Catholic can insult Mary by my ignorance, it is also totally possible for the most well informed Catholic to insult Mary by trying to protect her with venom and malice that comes from an unloving and spiteful spirit.

 

[mcq72]

Lol…it could be taken several ways…that it adds to an already complete understanding of scripture, or (but not?) add to form a complete understanding?

Actually just reread your initial post…i believe you state understanding of scriptures is “incomplete” without reading deuteros…

Yet i would say reading from all sources would still make for an incomplete undertanding of scripture, that indeed “we now see thru a glass darkly”, though “we know all things”.

 

[lanman87]

no Joseph had no children with Mary .as said in Mary wife of Cleophas and sister of the Virgin Mary (Jn 19:25) is the mother of James and Joset (Mk 15:47; Mt 27:56) who are called the brothers of Jesus (Mk 6:3). Acts 1:12-15 … apostles, Mary, some women and Jesus brothers number about 120. That is a lot of brothers. Gen 14:12-14 … Lot, Abrahams nephew (Gen 11:26-28), described as Abrahams brother (KJV). Gen 29:15 … Laban, Jacobs uncle, calls Jacob his brother

There is no doubt that brother can mean brother in Christ. This is a common practice in the culture I grew up in. Men in the church regularly called each other Brother, especially in the context of a church service. I.E. Brother Bill, would you mind praying for us today?

However, in Matthew 13 we read 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?

I know that the word used for brother/sister can mean close kinsman. However, in this context the immediate family of Christ is the topic of the paragraph. It wouldn’t make since to say “Is not this the carpenter’s son (Joseph), Is not his mother called Mary? and are not his male cousins James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? Aren’t his female cousins here with us”?

I believe the James mentioned here as one of the brothers of Christ is the writer of the book of James. It is the James Paul calls The Lord’s Brother in the book of Galatians and it is the James the Jewish Historian Josephus describes as “The brother of Jesus who is called Christ”.

Say want you want, be the men who asked the questions (questioning how Jesus could have the wisdom and knowledge he possessed) in Matthew 13 believed James, Joseph, Simon and Judas to be the blood brothers of Christ (and that Jesus had sisters as well) and that they shared the same father and mother. Apparently they didn’t know or didn’t believe the Christ was the the Son of God instead of Joseph’s offspring.

 

[Francis]

However, in Matthew 13 we read 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?

I know that the word used for brother/sister can mean close kinsman. However, in this context the immediate family of Christ is the topic of the paragraph. It wouldn’t make since to say “Is not this the carpenter’s son (Joseph), Is not his mother called Mary? and are not his male cousins James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? Aren’t his female cousins here with us”?

I believe the James mentioned here as one of the brothers of Christ is the writer of the book of James. It is the James Paul calls The Lord’s Brother in the book of Galatians and it is the James the Jewish Historian Josephus describes as “The brother of Jesus who is called Christ”.

Say want you want, be the men who asked the questions (questioning how Jesus could have the wisdom and knowledge he possessed) in Matthew 13 believed James, Joseph, Simon and Judas to be the blood brothers of Christ (and that Jesus had sisters as well) and that they shared the same father and mother. Apparently they didn’t know or didn’t believe the Christ was the the Son of God instead of Joseph’s offspring.

**Actually you have answered your own question below, same way at the time of Christ no difference **

There is no doubt that brother can mean brother in Christ. This is a common practice in the culture I grew up in. Men in the church regularly called each other Brother, especially in the context of a church service. I.E. Brother Bill, would you mind praying for us today?

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Marian doctrine taught by the Catholic Church and held by a number of group since Christianity which asserts that Mary (the mother of Jesus was “always a virgin, before, during and after the birth of Jesus Christ.” because Jesus came out of her like a light, a miraculous birth. John 1:4, 5 in Him was life and the life was the light of all people.5 The light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not overcome it. Those people who mistranslated as young women give silly excuse to discredit Mary’s status and of being a virgin

Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

 

[Wannano]

(Matthew 1:25, which actually implies the opposite of perpetual virginity),

Not necessarily its which way you interpret the scriptures.

where does Scripture imply Mary’s perpetual virginity?
[/q

Isaiah 66; 7 before she was in labor she gave birth; Before her pain came upon her she delivered a son.8 who has heard of such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be delivered in one moment? Yet as soon as Zion (Mother Mary) was in labor she delivered her children.9 shall I open the womb and not deliver? Says the Lord; shall I, the one who delivers, shut the womb? Says your God.

If Zion in this passage is appropriately allocated to Mother Mary as proof of her perpetual virginity how does one reconcile the word “children” in verse 8? If it said “child” it would give your meaning more credence.

 

[lanman87]

**Actually you have answered your own question below, same way at the time of Christ no difference **

That doesn’t answer the fact that the men who questioned how Jesus could have such wisdom in Matthew 13 believed James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (and His sisters) to be immediate family (blood brothers and sisters) of Jesus.

 

[mcq72]

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Poor Barnabus for Paul’s admonition was not heeded when much later on he wrote, “Those knowledgeable of the Lord’s precepts, keep them, as many as are written”.

Paul also warned against fables, and we both have disregarded many, but one of us more than the other if I may humbly say.