Protestant teaching of Mary

[JonNC]

Lol…it could be taken several ways…that it adds to an already complete understanding of scripture, or (but not?) add to form a complete understanding?

Actually just reread your initial post…i believe you state understanding of scriptures is “incomplete” without reading deuteros…

I think the last part is an accurate statement. Even from a position that they are not on a level with the canon, and therefore not primary sources of doctrine, they clearly can add to the understanding of scripture and even lend support to doctrine.

Yet i would say reading from all sources would still make for an incomplete undertanding of scripture, that indeed “we now see thru a glass darkly”, though “we know all things”.

I accept this correction if my statement inferred we could completely understand all of God’s word b

 

[lanman87]

Catholic Church states traditions as the orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”; 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

I have not seen anything that makes me believe that the perpetually virginity of Mary was taught by the Apostles.

I believe it was something developed from legends that arose in the 2nd Century, ( The Protoevangelium of James being an example of one of the legends that was put in writing), Theological speculation of Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant (which the Bible never calls her), and Religious Syncretism in the 3rd and 4th centuries as Romans converted in mass to Christianity and brought some of their customs and practices with them.

 

[Francis]

Isaiah 66; 7

If Zion in this passage is appropriately allocated to Mother Mary as proof of her perpetual virginity how does one reconcile the word “children” in verse 8? If it said “child” it would give your meaning more credence.

we are the spiritual children of Mary Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy (satan’s children =wicked people, anti-Christ ) seed and her (Mary) seed (Jesus and Christians): she shall crush thy (satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. Romans 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

. Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:
5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

Revelation 12:1-2 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman (Mother Mary) clothed with the sun (Glory Wisdom 7:26 For she (Mother Mary) is a reflection of eternal light=Jesus John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life.”, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.), with the moon under her feet (Power given to Her in the Church By Jesus on the Cross the last Treasure and the most important before his death only then he could finishes the will of God ), and on her head a crown of twelve stars (12 Apostles and the 12 Tribes of Israel) (Queen of Heaven). 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth

 

[Francis]

I have not seen anything that makes me believe that the perpetually virginity of Mary was taught by the Apostles.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

John 17:1717 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:
5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:
5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

God the Spouse comes to settle in the new Jerusalem (Rev 21:3), which corresponds to the phase of arrival – not only of the Spirit but of all Trinitarian Persons. This is why there is no longer a temple, as in ancient Jerusalem, for “its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb” (Rev 21:22), who will reside in the new heavenly Jerusalem forever (Rev 22:3-5).Another shout of joy was expressed when Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem on a young donkey (Lk 19:28-40), which is announced by Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king comes to you. Triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey.” This time, Zion is identified to “the multitude of the disciples” whose shout of joy was: “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” (Lk 19:37-38). There were some Pharisees in the crowd who did not approve and wanted to hush the disciples. Yet Jesus answered them: “I tell you, if these are silent, the very stones will cry out” (Lk 19:39-40), which shows that prophecies do not exist in order to be prevented but to be realized.

 

[Francis]

@AugustTherese

all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Answer to Romans 3:23, So what did the heavenly Father do,well he created a new creation Mary as said in
Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter (Eve)? For the Lord has created a new thing on the earth: a woman (new Eve Mother Mary) encompasses a man (Second Adam Jesus).If Enoch and Elijah who were born sinners and led a life of penance, but yet was assumed into Heaven, How much more the Mother of God born without the original sin and lived a holy life, will she not be in the heaven praying for all of us Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.”. Luke 1:45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be[a] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.” Psalms 118:23 This is the Lord’s doing, it is marvelous in our eyes. Hope you find the Truth.

God choose She to be his mother. Genesis 3:15 15 I will put enmities between thee(satan) and the woman(Mary), and thy(satan and wicked people ) seed and her seed(Jesus and we Catholic and those who respect and honor her ): she(Mother Mary) shall crush thy(satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her(Mother Mary) heel. Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

 

[Francis]

Poor Barnabus for Paul’s admonition was not heeded when much later on he wrote, “Those knowledgeable of the Lord’s precepts, keep them, as many as are written”.

Paul also warned against fables, and we both have disregarded many, but one of us more than the other if I may humbly say.

Word of God is not fables

John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

"Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33. they are not to be misunderstood as customs or human behaviour or habits

 

[AugustTherese]

I think you meant to reply to @ltwin:

all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

 

[po18guy]

Jon, requiring medical proof is nonsensical. The man raved, he woke in cold sweats, absolutely fearful, asking “Am I alone right?” and of course the answer he received was “Yes!” He had bouts of depression. He was obsessed to the point of OCD over “justification.” At the beginning, a nearby lightning strike, which he apparently took to be some sort of sign or chastisement from God, lead him to approach the Augustinian order in the first place! He was not running toward something but away from something.

There is no point in whitewashing the man. Neither is there much point in arguing that the Church hierarchy was not to blame. Church teaching was to be held inviolate - despite who was administering it. The man grossly overturned teaching into what he found personally acceptable.

He was allied with Erasmus of Rotterdam in a common wish for reformation of the corrupt hierarchy - but Erasmus remained loyal and did not reinvent Christianity. For differing with Luther, Erasmus was called “the very mouth organ of Satan.” and there is far worse that he wrote and said. So, as to calumny, I could learn much from the man.

Reporting the utter damage he did to the Body of Christ is no “false witness” - it is bearing witness to a brilliant but disturbed man who needs prayer right now. It is not disputed that he was a strong defender of Catholic doctrine regarding Mary.

 

[mcq72]

we are the spiritual children of Mary Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee (satan) and the woman (Mother Mary), and thy

In a sense we are interconnected and have forefathers/ mothers, but the genesis text contextually has us as the chidren of eve, that is not just in the flesh, but those born in the spirit, believers in the promise, first laid hold of in genesis.i mean we have lineages for a reason

 

[mcq72]

He was not running toward something but away from something.

Well quite subjective there…is that like belittling running toward a Physician because it is really running away from disease, like a sick scaredy cat ? Who really plays the fool here?..But let your deprications stick, just like all the possible belittling of our twenty four foundations, of the twelve brothers and the twelve apostles…really the least likely qualified fellows weren’t they ? But for sure now God is glorified, certainly not man…even as in Luther’s case (and many of our saints and mystics).

 

[JonNC]

Jon, requiring medical proof is nonsensical.

No, it’s not, because you are using the accusation as a reason for disregarding what he taught and believed. That is ad hominem.
Therefore, you have an obligation to prove that such an affliction is true. Then you have to justify that doing so is charitable.

There is no point in whitewashing the man. Neither is there much point in arguing that the Church hierarchy was not to blame. Church teaching was to be held inviolate - despite who was administering it. The man grossly overturned teaching into what he found personally acceptable.

I am not asking that anyone be whitewashed. I’m asking that charity, respect and argument from fact and not ad hominems are used, much as you did from your post about Judith.

Reporting the utter damage he did to the Body of Christ is no “false witness” - it is bearing witness to a brilliant but disturbed man who needs prayer right now . It is not disputed that he was a strong defender of Catholic doctrine regarding Mary.

Again, make the argument without attacks on his mental health which you have no way of knowing.

 

[Onthisrock84]

Why wouldn’t it be?
I spent two years in the seminary and was taught these two things so much and I still don’t grasp it. For example, if Mary was conceived without sin, it would put her on the same status as a literal goddess. Also how could she then have been given atonement for the sins of the fall of original sin from Christs sacrifice on the cross ? She in turn wouldn’t have been saved from his atonement and would be something completely different than the rest of humanity, again almost like a goddess. Now there are some extra canonical writings that point to the Immaculate Conception however they are not recognized as scripture. The same goes with the Assumption. Theres some extra canonical writings, one of which speaks of the disciples going to visit Mary’s tomb and her body is gone, but besides that nothing.
Notice the readings on both the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception really have nothing to do with what is being celebrated. The infancy narrative. I believe the vigil of the assumption has the reading from Revelation with the woman standing on the moon and giving birth to the child etc, however even if that is to be taken as Mary which I do, that is not to say she was assumed. I struggled with these two and have talked to many priests and even theologians and I still really just have blind faith with this one. Wheras every other solemnity the readings are connected to it, these two are speculative at best and at mass I am there wondering what they have to do with what is being celebrated.
If the Church wanted to make this so easy for everyone to accept without problems they should have been more liberal on the New Testament canon. I believe our New Testament is incredibly small for the amount of writings many church fathers quoted as scripture. Actually many things the church teaches as tradition is found right in these writings.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Some of you here probably know the story of Alphonse Ratisbone. A French Jewish man, and an anti-Catholic sceptic, he scoffed at his friend’s suggestion that he wear a Miraculous Medal and say the Memorare, but he took the dare just to prove that the Virgin Mary was powerless and inconsequential. He was proved wrong. It is a good story. For anyone out there, why not try it?
https://traditioninaction.org/SOD/j112sdOLMiracles_1-20.htm

 

[Promise91]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

However is there anything wrong in saying that I simply don’t know and to believe yay nay on whatever is to merely take the word of other people or to assume things that simply aren’t addressed in scripture?
I mean to be honest when it comes to certain things in Christianity I literally sit in the middle of the Protestant and Catholic world by opinion and of what I can understand when I read the bible without commentary.
maybe at the end of the day something things don’t change anything or amount to a hill of beans and everyone is at differently levels of understanding or perhaps that is just my ignorance.

I didn’t really want this thread turned into a debate, but I can understand why it did.

 

[po18guy]

By virtually all accounts, it was abject fear of judgment and damnation.

 

[lanman87]

Those are some great scripture. However, they still do not say that Mary was an ever-virgin and did not have other children.

If you read the entire passage of Galatians 4:21-31 you will see Paul is comparing the descendants of Hagar with the decedents of Sarah. Galatians 4:26 isn’t talking about Mary it is talking about Sarah.

 

[po18guy]

“Hypothesized” - no trace of this hypothesis in Jewish oral tradition, no trace in the Apostolic Tradition, no trace in the scriptures and not a trace in Josephus, or Pliny the Younger’s Roman records.

Zip. Zero. Nada.

Nothing, in fact, before the 1850s, a time of spiritual and theological chaos.

It sounds gnostic at best, false at worst (most likely), or simple fanciful daydreaming.

Do not buy any bridges offered for sale!

 

[lanman87]

I’ve been in Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, Reformed and Church of Christ churches many times and I have never heard anything like that. Honestly, it is an affront to Christianity to claim that Mary was pregnant by another man.

Stuff like this is what prompted Evangelicals in the late 19th and early 20th Century to write down what they called the 5 fundamentals of Christianity. This is where the term fundamentalist came from. It was a term used to distinguish those that held on to the truth of scripture against those who believed scripture to be purely allegorical and/or just made stuff up to explain away the scriptures.

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. Ezekiel 44:1-2

 

[Limoncello4021]

undead rat has some odd convictions. This one is pure fantasy. It makes me think about the adage, when you depart from the truth of the Catholic Church, you’ll start to believe just about anything.