Protestant tunnelvision

[HannahLisa]

That’s the thing, though. Perhaps this is a naive faith in the “goodness” of people, but I do NOT think that all these preachers are purposefully preaching lies! I think they preach in good faith that what they say is true, even though it is not. I think they are misguided. I also think that even if someone is completely wrong Christians should use COMPASSION in their treatment of them. Certainly some Protestants fail in this.

If someone believes in good faith that what they believe is true, why would they try to seek out the truth? Can we – fallible humans – blame them for that? How can we say we’re not the same way to some extent?

 

[Jeanette_L]

Hannah,

I did not mean to sound kurt or self righteous. I say this as the time of excuses is coming to an end.

The big lie is the protestant churches lying about the Catholic Church. Your Ministers know the truth. They have thotoughly read the bible and church history.

They were just taught how to put a slant on it for self gain.

I think it’s very, very unfair to make such a broad statement about Protestants. We certainly don’t like anyone doing this to Catholicism, it’s only fair to not do this to others. I understand your zealousness for the faith, but take a deep breath and try to realize how you sound/read.

Not all Protestant ministers are in ministry for self gain, as a matter of fact, I would say that only a very few really are, the majority are trying to serve God the best and only way they know, and they make great personal sacrifices to do so. They do indeed read the Bible, but that doesn’t mean they see with the light that we see.

Mercy, brother, Mercy.

 

[JPatton]

I gave my life to Christ 2 yrs ago and joined an evangelical church which claims to be a “New Testament Church”, close to how it was in NT times. I never gave the CC a thought, I just assumed it’s theology was similar to what I was being taught by my church and spiritual leader. Nothing “Catholic” was ever brought up. Later there were a few times when I would hear negative comments about a particular belief and I just assumed they were right. It was nothing as to Catholics were going to hell or anything, just how their beliefs were un-biblical and things like that. Well after a couple of years I began to question why their beliefs were called "un-biblical as well why my church taught me what it did, why I believed what I believed [ie…doctrine of baptism, communion, salvation…etc]. Well now here I am, not yet Catholic as I am still in study and prayer but very Catholic in my beliefs. I never experienced any real “anti-Catholic” attitudes untill one day I mentioned to my wife that so far I don’t see anything real un-biblical with Catholicism. Then it came out. Months later when I mentioned I couldn’t rule out the possibility of one day becoming Catholic it got even worse. When I discussed it with a Baptist pastor friend of mine he said Catholics weren’t Christians. It came out. When my brother in-law seen me researching Catholicism on the web he said “thinking about switching sides?” with a very negative tone. It then came out. I’ve since had alot of debates with my wife [evangelical] by letter and in person about Catholicism and the tunnelvision is apperent. True history has been denied even when presented. Early Christians weren’t Catholics and there was no CC back then is what I get. ECF writtings have no validitity because there not in the bible. CC beliefs are for the most part “man-made” and not-biblical. It’s hard to show someone the truth when their whole lives they have been taught “partial” truth. They truley believe it in their heart so it can be very difficult. It’s like arguing who’s better Joe Montana or Tom Brady. The 49’s fan will believe what he believes and the Patriots fan will do the same. Maybe not the best example but similar. I had to ask myself this one question -

Why is there so many different churches and beliefs today?

That one question brought about a whole lot more and brought me to the CC’s door.

Tunnelvision is alive and well, at least in my experiance.

Christ be in us all, in all things!
Jamie

 

[c659smith]

Jeanette,

I am not saying they are not zealot about their religion but they do not tell the truth.

Jeanette what is truth?

If I ask what is with that Catholic Church and what about their Religion do they tell the truth.

Do they state it is the original church?

If you eat my body and drink my blood you shall have eternal lif. if you do not eat my body and drink my blood you shall have no life within you.

Now for a Minister to refute this or try to rearrange Christ,s words to suit or fit anothers lifestyle then the big lie.

To say that Catholics believe that works will get you into heaven is a big lie.

Having faith brings good works “some of those greater than I have shown you” That is what Catholica believe. unlike numerous other Protestant religions that beleive in empty self inspiring faith alone.
I’m Ok your OK attitude.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I don’t think most Protestants are like the people the OP described. There certainly some groups that act like that, and I have been up against them, but the majority are reasonable people and don’t like the way they act any better than we do.

I have learned, though, that arguing with a die-hard Catholic basher is futile and a waste of time. Just look them in the face and say “This conversation is OVER”. It will save you a lot of aggravation and thoroughly frustrate them. You are not actually defending your faith in such conversations, you just end up being put on the defensive.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Jeanette,

I am not saying they are not zealot about their religion but they do not tell the truth.

Jeanette what is truth?

If I ask what is with that Catholic Church and what about their Religion do they tell the truth.

Do they state it is the original church?

If you eat my body and drink my blood you shall have eternal lif. if you do not eat my body and drink my blood you shall have no life within you.

Now for a Minister to refute this or try to rearrange Christ,s words to suit or fit anothers lifestyle then the big lie.

To say that Catholics believe that works will get you into heaven is a big lie.

Having faith brings good works “some of those greater than I have shown you” That is what Catholica believe. unlike numerous other Protestant religions that beleive in empty self inspiring faith alone.
I’m Ok your OK attitude.

But you are wording things in such a way as to suggest that all Protestants know these things are lies, and the reality is, they don’t. Most are completely convinced that they hold the truth. I’m not saying they do, I’m saying they think they do. They are blind.

It’s one thing to tell a lie intentionally, all along knowing the truth. That is done with malicious intent. But to spread a lie not understanding it to be a lie, but believing it to be the truth is something altogether different as far as intent. The untruth or lie is the same, the intent is not.

So what I’m saying is that you cannot paint the picture that everyone has the intent to deceive.

 

[ralphinal]

But you are wording things in such a way as to suggest that all Protestants know these things are lies, and the reality is, they don’t. Most are completely convinced that they hold the truth. I’m not saying they do, I’m saying they think they do. They are blind.

It’s one thing to tell a lie intentionally, all along knowing the truth. That is done with malicious intent. But to spread a lie not understanding it to be a lie, but believing it to be the truth is something altogether different as far as intent. The untruth or lie is the same, the intent is not.

So what I’m saying is that you cannot paint the picture that everyone has the intent to deceive.

I know Protestants who know the Church quite well. I know some who know less than nothing. It is the know-nothings that yell the loudest. I agree that most do not really know what the Church teaches that well.

I will say that there seems to be an issue with some Protestants about choosing where they get their information. It is not always the ones that do not like the Church. In an age where you can go to any bookstore and by a CCC or any number of good books, many choose less reliable works. If I want to know what someone teaches, I get the book directly from them.

 

[Claudius]

I do wonder sometimes if others see me as having the kind of tunnel vision I claim the protestants have. I once was looking at a book on the septugint old testament. In the preface, the author went out of this way to bash the Catholic church for so called alterations that weren’t real and for not giving the Greek old testament its due honor. Now the book may have been a very good book on the septuagint but after that I could do no other then put the book down and not trust anything that author could have written. I like to make sure my bookes and information is both Catholic friendly at least and factual.

However, there are places other then the Catholic church where someone can get objective evidence, empirical facts and historical truths. All of these things point to the Catholic church as being correct and the Catholic haters and being wrong. It isn’t a case of “Catholics are Christians because we say we are.” That is what the mormons do and they are wrong. It is a case of “Catholics have always been THE Christian and anyone who isn’t Catholic has their Christianness called into question.”

Recently I have been looking for a course book to help me teach Latin to my son. I know that there are a lot of secular fundamentalist that will tell me that I am abusing the child by teaching him Latin. Others will say that Latin is kid safe but I have to use their “REFORMED” pronunciation. Well, yah, I have a kind of tunnel vision, I want the Catholic pronunciation, for Catholic Latin because our family is a Catholic family and that is our history and culture. This isn’t me telling the Classicist that they can’t have the “Reformed” pronucnciation but let me have the Catholic one. Again, we see tunnel vision from the other side. They are currently six different “Reformed” or “Classical” pronunciations out there. They are all ok but for me to use one of the two Catholic pronunciations is just wrong in the view of the Classicist.

You all may have heard of this: ABC (anything but Catholic). It doesn’t matter how much evidence that I can show that the Catholic Church is right, they call empirical evidence a lie. It doesn’t matter how much evidence I can show that Catholic pronunciation is just as historically accurate as the new made up pronuniations, they still claim that it isn’t true. They aren’t even hearing my word, all they see is a Catholic moving his mouth.

It is similar to when the Orthodox get on the internet and find Catholic chatting just to tell them that their baptisms are invalid according to the Orthodox church. Now, I know my baptism is valid. They are just trying to get people angry. However, if it is true that the Orthodox really believe this it is a kind of Tunnel Vision prejudice. They don’t know about Catholic baptism and refuse to find out. We know about their. But if someone calls valid baptism invalid, doesn’t this call into question their own baptism since they obviously don’t have a valid teaching on the subject.

Not that I came here just to point fingers at everyone but myself, but it really does seem like the whole world is Catholic centric. Everyone cares what the Pope says, and all the (ABC) people denounce him before he even finishes a sentence.

 

[Righteousone]

Righteousone,
I am Lutheran, and have signed on here to learn more about the Catholic faith frankly because I am disturbed by the direction of Lutheranism in recent times, as well as having second thoughts about it in general. My dad was a Lutheran pastor, and I’m convinced he never lied to me. To me a lie implies an intent to deceive. He had strong faith, and truly believed in the Lutheran confessions. In addition, I never heard him denigrate other beliefs, including the Catholic Church.
Perhaps he was wrong (I’m willing to find out), but he was not a liar.
BLessings

If you want, I will change it from lying to being misled…glad you are here and want to research the Catholic faith. At least someone is willing to do that as a non-Catholic. If Luther lied then…

 

[conleyed]

It is great to see the discussion going on here. I am a cradle Catholic, and have had lots of good prodestant theology discussed with pretty good, God fearing people.

I have met many Baptists who absolutely love the Lord Jesus Christ. I always tell them that, as a Catholic, there is almost nothing that they believe that I do not. I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and that he is a very Personal Saviour to me, and etc. I also tell them that they are missing a lot in their very limited estate. They may be living righteous, holy lives, but they are not using all of the resources Christ left for us on this earth.

The number one resource is Christ himself in the Eucharist.
Also the forgiveness of sins in confession is one of the most endearing qualities of the Catholic church. Thank God for the sacrament of Reconcilliation! Talk about getting things off your chest! (eternally!)

It is always best to agree on the commonality between Catholics and Protestants. Then, if they raise objections, point to the fact that we are VERY similar in our beliefs, but that we consider ourselves accountable to Christ on a daily basis. We acknowledge that sin bears consequences, but we have instant forgiveness through an act of contrition, and perminant forgiveness through Confession.

Not to mention that I have an eternal Mother given to me right at the foot of the cross. Wow, am I BLEST, or what!! And the Saints intercession at my disposal - stop me!, I could go on forever!

Thank you Jesus!

Edward

 

[Jeanette_L]

I know Protestants who know the Church quite well. I know some who know less than nothing. It is the know-nothings that yell the loudest. I agree that most do not really know what the Church teaches that well.
I will say that there seems to be an issue with some Protestants about choosing where they get their information. It is not always the ones that do not like the Church. In an age where you can go to any bookstore and by a CCC or any number of good books, many choose less reliable works. If I want to know what someone teaches, I get the book directly from them.

I understand what you are saying. I can only tell you that the fear of the Catholic Church is so engrained in these people that to even read a Catholic book is paramount to opening the very doors of hell and walking through. I’m very serious when I say this. They believe that the Catholic Church and all things Catholic can cast some kind of spell on you as soon as you open yourself up to it. It’s why you will not get very many to even hear what you are saying, they have closed themselves out of fear. This is what they are taught over and over, by people and ministers they trust. And those ministers have been taught this from people they trust. This is the grassroots of the Fundamentalist world.

You may find some Evangelicals not quite as “spooked” or superstitious, but the warning bells are still going off when you speak to them about the Catholic faith, which they think is anti-Christian in the same vein as Mormonism or Islam, they don’t really listen or hear what you say, they go on the offensive right away and that’s as far as you will get.

I have said this many times, it is a miracle I made it from there to here and I am seen as “lost” because of it.

 

[ralphinal]

I understand what you are saying. I can only tell you that the fear of the Catholic Church is so engrained in these people that to even read a Catholic book is paramount to opening the very doors of hell and walking through. I’m very serious when I say this. They believe that the Catholic Church and all things Catholic can cast some kind of spell on you as soon as you open yourself up to it. It’s why you will not get very many to even hear what you are saying, they have closed themselves out of fear. This is what they are taught over and over, by people and ministers they trust. And those ministers have been taught this from people they trust. This is the grassroots of the Fundamentalist world.

You may find some Evangelicals not quite as “spooked” or superstitious, but the warning bells are still going off when you speak to them about the Catholic faith, which they think is anti-Christian in the same vein as Mormonism or Islam, they don’t really listen or hear what you say, they go on the offensive right away and that’s as far as you will get.

I have said this many times, it is a miracle I made it from there to here and I am seen as “lost” because of it.

I may be misguided, but I think that the actual percentage of Protestants who feel this way is not the majority. I am not saying it is like 5%, more like 20%. I bet that another 25% consider us true Christians without knowing what the Church teaches. I think about 10% know what we believe. The other 45% don;t give us much thought in any way shape or form

 

[Jeanette_L]

I may be misguided, but I think that the actual percentage of Protestants who feel this way is not the majority. I am not saying it is like 5%, more like 20%. I bet that another 25% consider us true Christians without knowing what the Church teaches. I think about 10% know what we believe. The other 45% don;t give us much thought in any way shape or form

I can only speak from the area of Protestantism that I came from, this is very true. Some of the older, more established forms of Protestants aren’t near as hostile or combative, especially on a personal level.

I do know that fellow converts from many other forms of Protestant faiths (besides the Fundamentalist/Evangelical side) have had mixed reactions toward their conversions, ranging from shock, to hostility to indifference.

Fundalmentalists and the majority of Evangelicals tend to be the most superstitious and hostile.

 

[ralphinal]

I can only speak from the area of Protestantism that I came from, this is very true. Some of the older, more established forms of Protestants aren’t near as hostile or combative, especially on a personal level.

I do know that fellow converts from many other forms of Protestant faiths (besides the Fundamentalist/Evangelical side) have had mixed reactions toward their conversions, ranging from shock, to hostility to indifference.

Fundalmentalists and the majority of Evangelicals tend to be the most superstitious and hostile.

Two points. First, I have always found it funny that former Catholics become hate-mongers when they leave the Church but former Protestants tend to speak well of their former faith. It has been beat to death on here, but it amazes me none the less.

Secondly, and I do not want to sound bad with this. Please no one take offense, but as a rule, aren’t Evangelicals/Fundamentalists less educated than other mainline Protestant groups? Seems like I read a study to that end a few years ago. If I am wrong, please correct me kindly. If I am correct, that may explain both the unwillingness to learn the truth, the superstition, and the reaction.

 

[conleyed]

Good post.

I think most fundamentalists appeal to the folks who have not had a lot of edumacation, but after a while they get brighter.
After all, they read a lot of the bible and memorize entire chapters.
Some even begin to read church history.
As a person gets more educated though, they look for the deeper things in Christianity. After all, “Jesus Saves” sermons can only go so far. After years of hearing the same message, they either drop out or look for the deeper things God has provided for us.
Thank God that resources such as EWTN are becoming more available to the common folk. People can see that there is more to Christianity than “gettin’ saved”. -Ed

 

[Jeanette_L]

Two points. First, I have always found it funny that former Catholics become hate-mongers when they leave the Church but former Protestants tend to speak well of their former faith. It has been beat to death on here, but it amazes me none the less.

Secondly, and I do not want to sound bad with this. Please no one take offense, but as a rule, aren’t Evangelicals/Fundamentalists less educated than other mainline Protestant groups? Seems like I read a study to that end a few years ago. If I am wrong, please correct me kindly. If I am correct, that may explain both the unwillingness to learn the truth, the superstition, and the reaction.

I don’t know that I would say across the board that they are less educated, but what kind of education is the key. They tend to stay within their own world, go to their own schools and don’t have as much exposure outside of that. It’s all part of the same mindset of distrust. This being particularly true of the more Fundamentalists of that group. It is sometimes hard to tell the two apart, but the hostility is more prominent in the Fundamentalist camp.

Now, having said this, they actually have kept more of their members from wandering away from faith altogether…but they tend to limit the amount of historical perspective they get when it comes to Christianity in general, and Catholicism specifically.

I like CS Lewis’s analogy of a man who grows up in a village and never leaves it, having no idea that there is a world out there completely different from his village. His mind is narrow and he cannot fathom that there are people who actually live and thrive in a way that is different from his own. Even if he is told these people and places exist, he cannot open his mind to them, it is somehow threatening to do so, it diminishes his own existance somehow.

This is the Fundamentalist world within Christianity.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Good post.

I think most fundamentalists appeal to the folks who have not had a lot of edumacation, but after a while they get brighter.
After all, they read a lot of the bible and memorize entire chapters.
Some even begin to read church history.
As a person gets more educated though, they look for the deeper things in Christianity. After all, “Jesus Saves” sermons can only go so far. After years of hearing the same message, they either drop out or look for the deeper things God has provided for us.
Thank God that resources such as EWTN are becoming more available to the common folk. People can see that there is more to Christianity than “gettin’ saved”. -Ed

There are some of us who wander off into the greater realm of Christianity, praise God!

And

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t know that I would say across the board that they are less educated, but what kind of education is the key. They tend to stay within their own world, go to their own schools and don’t have as much exposure outside of that. It’s all part of the same mindset of distrust. This being particularly true of the more Fundamentalists of that group. It is sometimes hard to tell the two apart, but the hostility is more prominent in the Fundamentalist camp.

Now, having said this, they actually have kept more of their members from wandering away from faith altogether…but they tend to limit the amount of historical perspective they get when it comes to Christianity in general, and Catholicism specifically.

I like CS Lewis’s analogy of a man who grows up in a village and never leaves it, having no idea that there is a world out there completely different from his village. His mind is narrow and he cannot fathom that there are people who actually live and thrive in a way that is different from his own. Even if he is told these people and places exist, he cannot open his mind to them, it is somehow threatening to do so, it diminishes his own existance somehow.

This is the Fundamentalist world within Christianity.

That isolation is part of what I had in mind. Exposure is key to growth. I am not talking about exposure to sin, but to other thoughts and facts.

The other part is college education. I wonder what percentage has attended some higher education institution (Junior College or university, graduation not important) and of those, what percentage attended a secular or non-Fund. or Evean. School

 

[Jeanette_L]

That isolation is part of what I had in mind. Exposure is key to growth. I am not talking about exposure to sin, but to other thoughts and facts.

The other part is college education. I wonder what percentage has attended some higher education institution (Junior College or university, graduation not important) and of those, what percentage attended a secular or non-Fund. or Evean. School

Many do tend to go to their own higher educational facilities. And to be quite honest, we see what goes on in our secular universities, if your kids even end up with their minds off their social life and onward to their education, most of those places are not friendly to any Christian faith, it comes under constant attack in some quarters. I don’t blame Christians of any faith to want a safer environment for their kids. It’s a terrible shame to have to make those kinds of choices.

 

[JonNC]

If you want, I will change it from lying to being misled…glad you are here and want to research the Catholic faith. At least someone is willing to do that as a non-Catholic. If Luther lied then…

Righteousone,
Agreed (if you mean inadvertantly misled)! Talk about tunnelvision - If I am not willing to learn about your faith, what does that say about the security of my own? And if I come to the conclusion that Luther was mistaken (I don’t think he lied), then I must become a Catholic (“Lord, to whom shall I go?”). Thanks for the welcome. I’m glad to be here.

Blessings