Protestant Unity

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heisenburg

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For starters, please forgive me as this is not meant to be derogatory or insulting. It is merely to get information. If I offend anyone with my statements, please accept my most humble appologies.

I am simply curious, how do the protestants on this board explain the disunity found within the various protestant denomonations and still hold to the statement that it is what God wants? I have often heard the statement that each agree on the core doctrine, and this may be true within an over-all Meta-denomonations (ie Baptists as a whole, Methodists as a whole etc) when you look at protestantism as a whole, there is no unity or agreement what so ever. Even down to the issue of what is Faith Alone, Scriture alone. Even these core documents are not agreed upon. There is little to no agreement on the validity of Baptism, almost no agreement on interpreting scripture, Works are valid! works are not valid! some even go so far as to say there really isnt ANYTHING we can do, even with respect to faith to change or ultimate status whether it is heaven or hell.

Again, I am not looking at individual denomations, but protestantism as whole, from Fundamentalist, to Lutherans. From SDA, to Methodist. This amazing disunity is my largest and seemingly insermoutnable stumbling block to ever believe that the Protestant churches “have it right”

I know some will say, well there are differant sects within Catholicism. And while this is true, the core differance between protestant denoms and the various Catholic Rites is very simple. All Catholic Rites regardless of location, country, or doctrine, are in complete agreement and in union with the Pope. All Rites are also in agreement with ALL the moral and theological teachings of the church. In otherwords, the way Chirst is Celebrated nmay be differant, but the beliefs are all the same.

Anyway, I am not trying to start a raging argument on who is right, I merely want to know how Protestants address this extremely Glaring issue of complete disunity and confusion among protestants as a whole, and still feel Protestantism is the way to go. Rememeber, Our God is not the God of confusion, but this is all i can see in Protestantism.

Again, forgive me if I have crossed any lines and was uncharitable. These are jsut legitimat questions I have. All that being said, I believe Protestants ARE Christians, and those that truely do follow Christs teachings, will be judged worthy.

To each of you in Christ
 
I found nothing in your sincere question ‘offensive’, it is a wonderful question. From the Reformed perspective(from Reformed, I mean faithful to the Reformed Confessions like the Belgic Confession- so I cant answer for all Protestants) we see everything as the will of God. God is completely soveriegn, and even the devil requires permission to wreak mischeif. All things unfold for the benefit of those who love God(his elect).

We pray for unity, but are required to praise God in a manner worthy of what God has shown us. We have been given much, thus much is required of us. We strive to praise God in a manner that will bring him glory, not to appease fellow men. We build(God willing) upon the foundation of Christ in a worthy manner, we have the law of God written in our hearts, as we strive to be vessels of honor with God’s grace.

Do you feel insecure when you see the division with Orthodox or Protestants?
 
heisenburg said:
I am simply curious, how do the protestants on this board explain the disunity found within the various protestant denomonations and still hold to the statement that it is what God wants? …Anyway…I merely want to know how Protestants address this extremely Glaring issue of complete disunity and confusion among protestants as a whole, and still feel Protestantism is the way to go.
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Most Protestants do not see the current state of Protestantism as divided - they actually view their mutual comfort with doctrinal plurality as a unifying feature of Protestantism! Here is what I have experienced as the explanations:
  • Protestants are not divided doctrinally
  • Protestants are divided only on the non-essentials
  • Protestants are members of the one body of Christ by faith, and the doctrinal disagreements are irrelevent.
  • Protestants are in no worse shape than Catholics
    I would not hold your breath waiting for many Protestant responses. Let me know if someone comes up with something new.
Phil
 
Protestant Unity.
Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?
An oxymoron?

When I was a lutheran - 30 odd years, I never would have thought of joining, say a methodist or a baptist church.
Unless of course, my friends went there. 😃
Communion-wise though, I thought them all interchangable.
 
Philthy said:
Most Protestants do not see the current state of Protestantism as divided - they actually view their mutual comfort with doctrinal plurality as a unifying feature of Protestantism! Here is what I have experienced as the explanations:
  • Protestants are not divided doctrinally
  • Protestants are divided only on the non-essentials
  • Protestants are members of the one body of Christ by faith, and the doctrinal disagreements are irrelevent.
  • Protestants are in no worse shape than Catholics
    I would not hold your breath waiting for many Protestant responses. Let me know if someone comes up with something new.
Phil
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Well, from what i can see the unity of the Catholic church stems more from apathy and ignorance rather than agreement on doctrine. The vast majority of laity do not really care to know enough about Catholic doctrine to have an opinion. The unity is imposed at an official level with the vast majority clueless past a very shallow level of knowledge. Those that might be inclined to disagree are told that agreement or at least acceptance of dogma is necessary for salvation.

Heck, Peter Kreeft at Boston College states that 95% of his students could not articulate the Catholic version of salvation.

Does that mean that 95% of students at a Catholic university (Boston College) are unified in the Faith? :eek:
 
Philthy said:
Most Protestants do not see the current state of Protestantism as divided - they actually view their mutual comfort with doctrinal plurality as a unifying feature of Protestantism! Here is what I have experienced as the explanations:
  • Protestants are not divided doctrinally
  • Protestants are divided only on the non-essentials
  • Protestants are members of the one body of Christ by faith, and the doctrinal disagreements are irrelevent.
  • Protestants are in no worse shape than Catholics
    I would not hold your breath waiting for many Protestant responses. Let me know if someone comes up with something new.
Phil
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What is irrelant? what to be considered non-essential? :confused:
 
Baraq said:
… we see everything as the will of God. God is completely soveriegn…We pray for unity…
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Oh yeah - I forgot this one! “Everything is the will of
God…” Nothing is done by choice, but by God’s will.
IMHO I find that response a little lacking as it completely negates the exercise of the God-given free of will of man to reject Him.
“Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil…” is Peters admonition and as such acknowledges that we can, in fact, use our freedom for evil purposes contrary to God’s will. One example being the dividing of the body of Christ and tarnishing the witness to unbelievers through doctrinal multiplicity and prideful attachments to them.
Furthermore, Scripture tells us that God wills all men to be saved through a knowledge of Christ - yet I have not met a reformed theologian prepared to admit that all men are saved as a result of this declaration of God’s sovereign will.
 
KayCee…

I will agree completely that there are a large number of people in the CC that have no understanding of what it means to be catholic. Terribly sad fact, but one that is true. However, the same can almost always be said for any denomonation. I am willing to wager that its the same percentage for any self professed “Insert Denomonation affiliation” would be the same. The main differance is that you dont see those lacking in faith in church as much in the protestant world NEARLY as much as you do in the catholic world. For a protestant, its not necisarily a sin to miss service, however, catholic teaching that it is a sin to miss is one of the few teachings every catholic knows, therefore, you get… i dont know what I believe, bu i know i have to go to church and therefore do.

In otherwords, you get a higher percentage of people with dead faith GOING to service, but overall, the percentage of people claiming a denomonation yet being ignorant of itis probably the same for all denoms…

That being said, would you judge the unity of an organization based on its dumbest members? Say you are baptist, would you want me to ask someone that professs to be baptist, but never goes to church what you beleive? of coarse not. And Im not talking about those types of people.

However, what I am saying when talking about unity between the various rites is that what is actually TAUGHT is always in union…

I would never judge your faith or teachings based on its weakest members, why would you want to?

However perhaps i should have made myself slightly more clear, adn appologize for any confusion. When you look at the official teachings of the various Rites in Catholicism, they are almsot always in agreement and in union. However, from what i have seen, the same cant be said when looking at the teachings of the various protestant “rites”.

Everyone says they are right… but they cant all be right…

Despite this, thank your for your comments Kaycee

In Christ
 
The main differance is that you dont see those lacking in faith in church as much in the protestant world NEARLY as much as you do in the catholic world. For a protestant, its not necisarily a sin to miss service, however, catholic teaching that it is a sin to miss is one of the few teachings every catholic knows, therefore, you get… i dont know what I believe, bu i know i have to go to church and therefore do.
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Protestant attendance is better than Catholic attendance.
The 1990s
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Catholic church attendance has experienced some rises and dips during the 1990s and the first few years of the 21st century, but nowhere near the decline that occurred between the 1950s and the 1980s. In March 2002, Protestants reported attending church more frequently on average than Catholics for the first time in nearly a half-century of Gallup Poll data collection. Protestants’ levels of church attendance have remained higher than that of Catholics since then.
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heisenburg said:
KayCee…

I will agree completely that there are a large number of people in the CC that have no understanding of what it means to be catholic. Terribly sad fact, but one that is true. However, the same can almost always be said for any denomonation. I am willing to wager that its the same percentage for any self professed “Insert Denomonation affiliation” would be the same…In otherwords, you get a higher percentage of people with dead faith GOING to service, but overall, the percentage of people claiming a denomonation yet being ignorant of itis probably the same for all denoms…
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I would have to disagree at this point. On the whole Evangelical congregations have a very good grasp of doctine.
However perhaps i should have made myself slightly more clear, adn appologize for any confusion. When you look at the official teachings of the various Rites in Catholicism, they are almsot always in agreement and in union. However, from what i have seen, the same cant be said when looking at the teachings of the various protestant “rites”.
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The unity again is not so much volitional as it is imposed under pain of anathema. It appears there are no “non essentials”. Dogmatic faith is a requirement for salvation.

My point is that disagreement is not allowed, if one does not agree, one is know longer Catholic thus retaining the enforced lockstep “unity”.

Since the “bar” of salvation for the protestant Christian is basically being in Christ by Faith in the substitutionary atonement of Christ, there is freedom on other issues
 
phil, you seem to be upset the God has the power to determine who his people are. Why do Catholics think their prayers(even prayers to mere creatures) can help someone come to salvation, but so easily reject our most wise creator making that choice?

from the Canons of Dordt

Article 14. As the doctrine of divine election by the most wise counsel of God, was declared by the prophets, by Christ himself, and by the apostles, and is clearly revealed in the Scriptures, both of the Old and New Testament, so it is still to be published in due time and place in the Church of God, for which it was peculiarly designed, provided it be done with reverence, in the spirit of discretion and piety, for the glory of God’s most holy name, and for enlivening and comforting his people, without vainly attempting to investigate the secret ways of the Most High. Acts 20:27;Romans 11:33,34;12:3;Hebrews 6:17,18.
 
With respect to all those that are protestant that have posted, I appreciate your comments, however, I feel it is drifting a little from the core question.

And BrianH… I can be corrected. My comment was merely a statement that there is a higher percentage of those with dead faith attending over those in protestant churches. Though I dont know the source, as long as its valid, I dont have a problem with again…

Again though… core arguement… When not looking at its members, but as a whole, The various Catholic Rites are all in agreement, and all in union.

To kaycee, If as a whole the evangelical congregations tend to be more attentive… Im pleased to hear it. But again, that is a specific instance within the over all Protestant “world” and is not representative of the whole.

If one steps back and looks at the protestant world as a whole, not the individual denomonation level, that unity doesnt exist.

My Question is simple, how can, as a protestant, it be claimed that this is what christ intended. Or, more ominously, does it not matter to a protestant that there is such deep divisions.
 
heis, I did answer your question(though you seem to have ignored the one I asked in return)

We in the Reformed Faith seek to honor God through our worship, we seek to please God not Men. Since God is completely soveriegn, there is no need for us to question the righteouness of the division. Granted, we might lament the division, but we know it is what is best.

Romans 8:28 And we know that All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 
heisenburg said:
For starters, please forgive me as this is not meant to be derogatory or insulting. It is merely to get information. If I offend anyone with my statements, please accept my most humble appologies.

I am simply curious, how do the protestants on this board explain the disunity found within the various protestant denomonations and still hold to the statement that it is what God wants? I have often heard the statement that each agree on the core doctrine, and this may be true within an over-all Meta-denomonations (ie Baptists as a whole, Methodists as a whole etc) when you look at protestantism as a whole, there is no unity or agreement what so ever. Even down to the issue of what is Faith Alone, Scriture alone. Even these core documents are not agreed upon. There is little to no agreement on the validity of Baptism, almost no agreement on interpreting scripture, Works are valid! works are not valid! some even go so far as to say there really isnt ANYTHING we can do, even with respect to faith to change or ultimate status whether it is heaven or hell.

Again, I am not looking at individual denomations, but protestantism as whole, from Fundamentalist, to Lutherans. From SDA, to Methodist. This amazing disunity is my largest and seemingly insermoutnable stumbling block to ever believe that the Protestant churches “have it right”

I know some will say, well there are differant sects within Catholicism. And while this is true, the core differance between protestant denoms and the various Catholic Rites is very simple. All Catholic Rites regardless of location, country, or doctrine, are in complete agreement and in union with the Pope. All Rites are also in agreement with ALL the moral and theological teachings of the church. In otherwords, the way Chirst is Celebrated nmay be differant, but the beliefs are all the same.

Anyway, I am not trying to start a raging argument on who is right, I merely want to know how Protestants address this extremely Glaring issue of complete disunity and confusion among protestants as a whole, and still feel Protestantism is the way to go. Rememeber, Our God is not the God of confusion, but this is all i can see in Protestantism.

Again, forgive me if I have crossed any lines and was uncharitable. These are jsut legitimat questions I have. All that being said, I believe Protestants ARE Christians, and those that truely do follow Christs teachings, will be judged worthy.

To each of you in Christ
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Excellent question and I must say that your point is something I have been struggling with lately. Nonetheless, let me take a stab. First of all, where the rubber hits the road for most average Joe-in-the-Pew Protestants, the differences among us may seem slight. Sure, the Methodists baptise infants and like to have small group bible studies. The Baptists won’t baptise infants. The Presbyterians have real good teaching. The Episcopalians are big into ritual. The generalizations and stereotypes can go on and on, but for most people they believe in Jesus, believe that a personal relationship with their savior is necessary and desirable, and they believe in what is written in the Bible. The deeper issues of theology are for theologians. I would say, as someone noted above, that this is likely to be the case for many average Catholics also.

Now, having said that, we know as Protestants that despite a general unity on what we consider to be most important, that there are significant differences amongst us. We also know that we have significant differences in comparison to the Catholic Church. And the Orthodox Church. Hey! All of us have differences and, probably, not all of us can be right, but we continue to trust in Christ that He will sort it out in the end. You must remember that while you believe you are THE CHURCH and, frankly, THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH, to most Protestants you are just another denomination with which they may have differences. As a Methodist, you don’t believe the same exactly as a Presbyterian. Nor do you believe the same as a Catholic. Just the same.

One (fairly cynical but I believe reasonably accurate) take on the question from one Protestant. Others can, and will, have different opinions…
 
Baraq…

Thank you for your response, and I do appologize for over looking your question. It was not intentional. Though I am not exactly sure i understand what you mean about do i feel insecure about the differances, I guess my response if I am understanding you correctly would be no, i do not feel insecure.

I worry that a great number of protestant churches are teaching fluffy christianit, and I wonder if it will actually lean many the wrong way. I also worry that when people focus on worshiping the way that feels best to them is dangerous as well as it puts the focus on the individual and how he feels and not God. Also, most knowledgable catholics will agree with you when We say we are worshiping for God and not man. I know by your previous post in other threads you do not see it that way, but this is for another forum on another day. I dont knwo if that answered your question, but hopefully it does.

With respect to your answer, again, I know you will disagree, but saying god wanted his church divided does not seem correct. Remember jesus response when he was accuesed by the pharisis of being in cahoots with the devil, and that was why he could exorsize demons…

A house divided against itself can not stand., saying that the divisions which are very frequently violent (atleast verbally) is divinly inspired by God just doesnt fit. Furhter more, all of these divisions only foster confusion. And thus, we are back at the core question, but I do appreciate your response and thank you for taking the time to consider what I ahve said.

in Christ
 
RR
you must remember that while you believe you are THE CHURCH and, frankly, THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH, to most Protestants you are just another denomination with which they may have differences
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I think you hit on a very key point. It is the perception. To a catholic, weve been here since day one teaching the same thing. Protestants dont think so.

The only way my question can be relivant is if you believe that the Catholic church was always there, but went astray somewhere. Otherwise, the question of whether or not We have been there since 33AD must be addresed first.

I am however worrited when it seems that the only unifing theme is that we all “believe” in christ. We cant even say its Faith in christ because the definition of faith is differant to every denom it seems. They may seem slight to someone of lukewarm faith, but they realy arent. If I were coming into the CHRISTIAN faith from say budism, how would I know which is which. There is so much Chaos when you look at the whole.

As a final note though, Even protestants acknowledge there is more to our differances than jsut another denom. While most still see us christian, Protestants as a whole say there there is a huge differance between Catholic Understanding and Protestant Understanding. And it is that gulf that we all look across… The Catholic side (to me) seems to be in unison with its teachings (again, dont look at individual members) the Protestant side of the gulf, it is all over the place.

But I do thank you for your response, and you did give me a perception to think about (We are just another Denom to you)

In Christ

PS - ill be out for a few dayss o I will not be able to respond. Keep Care
 
heis

Glad to hear you arent insecure, if I were an RCC or Orthodox member I would spend sleepless nights wondering if my Eucharist should be leavened or not. Or I might wonder if my baptism was done right… anyways ever read the OT? think maybe the divison in Gods people was out of his control or not? Ever wonder why God tested his people? Or even why the only begotten Son had to endure all the affliction? If you were there, would you believe God or the the religious rulers of the day?

Exodus 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Judges 2:22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
 
originally posted by Baraq
Why do Catholics think their prayers(even prayers to mere cre
atures) can help someone come to salvation, but so easily reject our most wise creator making that choice?
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We do not pray “to mere creatures” (for the gazillionth time!!!)
And we do not reject our Creator.
 
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