Protestant Unity

[heisenburg]

Baraq, I would like to make a few comments on Romans 8. You feel that there is no way for the Church to explain these things, but, I will attempt to do so. I am terrible at explaining at times, so i simply ask that you bare with me. Also, I understand that you will more then likely not agree with this understanding, but this is ok, as I am merely giving you the catholic understanding for you to do with as you feel appropriate.

I dont know what you ahve specific comments on, so i will sum up as best as I can the over all chapter. Again, this i a cliffnotes version and not a full understanding

Often I hear people use Romans 8 as proof of the predestined and/or OSAS view. While I do not wish to address these issues in full, I would like to address why this chapter can’t be used for these topics

Romans 8:1-17
Here, we are basicaly told that if you are in christ, you will not have a sinful nature, if you are not with christ you have a sinful nature. It goes on to say that if you are in christ, sin is not your first impulse, otherwise it is…

If this were to mean that once you are in christ, you no longer live along a sinful nature, be extrapolation, you are therefore saying that you no longer sin. this brings up the question. Once you have accepted Christ truely, are you implying that you will never sin again? Surely this is not the case. We will sin. Paul even commented how he did not do the thing he wants but the very thing that he hates. that thing was sin, so obviously, a person in christ can still sin.

So, how then does this fit with Romans 8:1-17. basically, if you are truely trying to follow Christ, you will immediatly or soon there after know you sinned. If after knowing you sinned, you are remorseful and repentant, you will ask for forgiveness. It is however important to know however that until you ask for that forgiveness, you are in a state of sin, and therefore seperate from Christ. Though your “new Nature” in christ helps you understand the consequences of your sin, you still need to ask for that forgivenss. NOT asking for forgiveness because you think you dont have to will leave you in the wilderness.

In Otherwords, if you have sinned, you are no longer in Christs “graces” and therefore will remian outside until you repent of the offending action, when you reptent, you return within Christ, until you sin once more. Think about it like a free man. You are a free man until you commit a crime, then you are imprisoned, once you server your time, you are released and free once more.

Understanding this also helps the understanding that this is not talking about people forever ensured a salvation, but simply talking about if you sin, you put yourself away from christ, if you repent, you return. It should also be noted that in verse 12, Paul even goes so far as to say we have an obligation to continue. If these things automatialy happen, why would paul insist on obliging us to live this way.

(CONT)

 

[heisenburg]

(CONT)
Romans 8:18-27
THis is actually a beautiful set of versus. It initially is talking about how Nature awaits the Glorious fullfilment of its resotred nature. How it was curropted by our sin. and how it waits for the curroption to be removed.

It then moves to a very important note of how we are also “groaning” for this. It also clearly states that 1) we are still waiting for that adoption, in other words, we have not yet received this salvation which is implied by OSAS. It also talks about the Hope of that adoption (salvation) It is interesting to note, that immediatly after, it says, but we are not hoping for what we already have. Here, Paul is clearly saying that he hasnt been adopted yet, but hopes that he will.

26,27 are also very important, in 26 paul clearly says that the spirit helps us and will pray for us in our time of weakness. what is that time of weakness? Sin. In 27, who is the HS praying for, the saints. A clear statement that even the Saints will fall. If the saints are assured, why would the HS need to pray for them

Romans 8:28-39
Here is the set of versus that (supposidly) clearly states that god predestines ceartain people to do ceartain things and that according to a calvin and some Baptists POV, that rpedestination means you can do nothign to change it. Simply put, it is true that gods plans for all of us. but jsut because plans are made does not mean plans are followed. I can set everything up for my child to go to Med School. I can prepay. get cozy with all the right people, and basicaly set it up to where allhe has to do is accept it. But he doesnt have to. thus is the nature of free will. God predestined and wants all of us to be with him, however, we all know that doesnt happen.

The ending versus are a sort of and see what christ/God has done for you. but there is a final note, it also says that if you are in christ, nothign can seperate you. no power, prinicipality, or sword. I say, Amen. But there is something that will seperate us, it is Sin. no where does it say that internal forces wont seperate you. If you sin, you are seperated. And we all WILL sin, and therefore at times be seperated.

Again, this does not support the OSAS/calvin Predestined idea.
Hopefully i have given you soemthing to aleast chew on, you may not agree, but this is a quick sum up of the Catholic position, and also reasons why it cant be used to support those ideas.

May christ be with you baraq

 

[Philthy]

Oh, your ‘personal’ understanding. lol, Arent you the one criticizing Protestants for not being unified?.

That is the discussion at hand - it seems you wish to talk about anything but that, however.

baraq:

Do you know what your Church teaches about Romans 8?

I know some - I know that the Church teaches that no one is predestined to Hell and that there is some acceptable disagreement on the Perseverance of the Saints into the Thomist and Molinist schools of thought, but I am no expert.

baraq:
never mind
No, let’s not “never mind” - this is entirely “on topic” and relevent. Yet once again you fall short of actually saying unambiguously what it is you wish us to know. I can only presume that my alleged ignorance of what my Church teaches about Romans 8 is, to you, an indication of the disunity in Catholicism. I will say this: if I am ignorant of a teaching of the Church then I, as a “younger member” am “subject to the presbyters” and in humility I readily acknowledge my own intellectual limitations.
I will not be starting a new denomination over my personal misunderstandings. That, is the fundamental difference between the history of Catholicism and the history of Protestantism in the context of doctrinal unity.

baraq:

(like an earlier poster noted)Apathy, ignorance and keeping the same name isnt what we are called for.

Well which is it - are we all called and therefore we should exercise free will in obedience to the calling (by the grace offered by God (cf 1Cor 10:13) OR are we “predestined”
to the sovereign will of God and incapable of altering our behavior so that some of us will not react to the call ( or are not even called at all)? You cant have it both ways - you cant blame the disunity in Protestantism on God’s sovereignty and then pretend that we are also to follow what we are “called for”.
If I am misrepresenting your position of God’s sovereignty, by all means, please correct me. If I am not then your position makes no sense to me.

baraq:

We are new creatures, called according to a purpose, the workmanship of his hands. Does not the Potter have power over the clay? to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?(here I quote the apostle)-btw a soverign God is not the author of sin, does not the same apostle answer this?Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is all great, but not truly productive. Just say that which you wish to say in the context of disunity so I can understand your position better. Statements are prererable to endless questions.

baraq:

Indeed, it is God that gives faith, brings salvation and keeps his people faithful.

I consider this entirely consistent with Catholic theology. Still, however, it does not get down to the “nuts and bolts” of the thread - why is there so much disunity in Protestantism?
So please take some time to consider my questions above so that I can understand your position better. As it stands, you seem to use God’s sovereignty as an excuse for the disunity in Protestantism while simultaneously talk about acting in a manner consistent with His calling, which seems to place limits on the degree of sovereignty God places in certain situations. I see those ideas as contradictory.

 

[Baraq]

heis,
I have a great deal of respect for RCC doctrine, I had no doubt they had a reasonable explantion for it that does not conflict with their theology. Just found it ironic that a poster that criticizes Protestants for lack of unity would answer the way he did

Phil,
Actually we apply God Soveriegnty in a more postive way, we preach his Word to draw back Protestants (& Catholics)that have fallen away.

 

[Philthy]

heis,
Phil,
Actually we apply God Soveriegnty in a more postive way, we preach his Word to draw back Protestants (& Catholics)that have fallen away.

Hi Baraq -

In “preaching his Word to draw back” others, it would seem to me that either you dont trust God’s sovereignty the way you presented it initially - remember? You claimed to trust God’s sovereignty in ordaining the pluralism of Prostestant theology even though you said you might 'lament it". You dont seem to want to truly engage the topic of how you distinguish your decision to “preach” from the decision that God is sovereign and therefore *not *to preach. To an outsider looking in, it appears completely arbitrary and inconsistent with your professed notion of God’s sovereignty. But that is simply my opinion based on our exchanges.

I wish you well. I also wish we could have exchanged ideas rather than mere words. Perhaps another time. May God’s peace guard your heart and mind in His beloved Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[Libertas]

Do you feel insecure when you see the division with Orthodox or Protestants?

No I feel a great sadness when I see such a sinful division and anti-Biblical stance that Christianity is in.