Israel today is the Kingdom of God.Rather, the church has been “grafted in” to the branch of God. Israel is the bride of Christ, not the church. The church, by believing in the Messiah and therefore the God of Israel, becomes part of that “bride”- but does not replace Israel as a people as the bride. Now, just because a person is an Israelite does not mean they are of the house of God. Rather, those whom God calls “he also redeems,” by which I mean that those Israelites who God calls to belief through faith remain his bride-along with the gentile believers.
We differ in that while reading and believing that it is simple grammar rules it is more than that. I do not, as you appear to be doing, read and explain, because even the book you quote from states quite simply…to a Eunuch…My friend. Paul says “for by grace, you have been saved through faith.” It is obvious from simple grammar rules that Paul is saying one is saved through faith. Grace is the thing that saves, but rather that which allows a person to be saved through FAITH.
and since you have brought yourself to the CAF26But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert [road].) 27So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
any attempt to interpret the Bible must be contrasted with what the Church teaches…this is CAF, to explain and defend the Faith…119 “It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of **the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God.”**88
Of course I do not agree. Your opinion is your opinion and the question is on what authority do you render that opinion? I trust the Church and no one else so don’t feel singled out.When one says “that is your opinion,” it is obvious to all he does not agree. If he does not agree, he does not trust it to be accurate. That is why your statements suggest what I said was not to be trusted.
Discuss what you like. Isreal is people not dirt. You may believe otherwise. Dispensationalism renders Israel to be dirt and the entire Protestant theology is based on dirt. My knowledge is based on study of Dispensationalism and an understanding of eschatologic views including Historic Premillinialinism, Amellinialism, Postmillinialism and the varied and sundried Premillinialisms as well as reading sources that are Catholic and Protestant. What is your knowledge based on?Hypocrisy. It does seem funny that you would say I was wrong to discuss something which I had limited knowledge about, while by the same token, you were doing the same. If, therefore, you think you have great knowledge about the protestant view (which I would argue you don’t, from your comments), perhaps you should also assume that others know about your religious beliefs or have a right to discuss them.
So, you are telling me what Faith is not how it is acquired. To be induced implies it is already there. Are you born with Faith? This notion is at odds with many Protestant forms of thought. Faith is a gift and if so how does one get it.Faith is not a passive thing. Faith is an action. Therefore, nobody “gets” faith from anywhere. Rather, they are induced to use it by some means. In the case of believers following the coming of Jesus, our faith is allowed blossom through the GRACE of God. So the two go hand in hand, but grace does not save
Rather, the church has been “grafted in” to the branch of God. Israel is the bride of Christ, not the church. "- but does not replace Israel as a people as the bride. Now, just because a person is an Israelite does not mean they are of the house of God. Rather, those whom God calls “he also redeems,” by which I mean that those Israelites who God calls to belief through faith remain his bride-along with the gentile believers.
Explain your understanding of “the church”…The church, by believing in the Messiah and therefore the God of Israel, becomes part of that "bride
I’m afraid we’re getting hopelessly off topic here, but I understand where you are coming from. However, it is both dangerous and unbiblical to use the teaching of any church (Catholic or Protestant) as the standard for understanding the word of God. Paul makes this clear in Acts 17: “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”We differ in that while reading and believing that it is simple grammar rules it is more than that. I do not, as you appear to be doing, read and explain, because even the book you quote from states quite simply…to a Eunuch…
and since you have brought yourself to the CAF,
any attempt to interpret the Bible must be contrasted with what the Church teaches…this is CAF, to explain and defend the Faith…
You don’t trust God, only the Church? That is unfortunate. Or didn’t you mean that?Of course I do not agree. Your opinion is your opinion and the question is on what authority do you render that opinion? I trust the Church and no one else so don’t feel singled out.
Well, Israel is definitely people. However, Israel the land is also God’s. cf. Leviticus 25:23 (and elsewhere): “The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.”Discuss what you like. Isreal is people not dirt. You may believe otherwise. Dispensationalism renders Israel to be dirt and the entire Protestant theology is based on dirt. My knowledge is based on study of Dispensationalism and an understanding of eschatologic views including Historic Premillinialinism, Amellinialism, Postmillinialism and the varied and sundried Premillinialisms as well as reading sources that are Catholic and Protestant. What is your knowledge based on?
So, you are telling me what Faith is not how it is acquired. To be induced implies it is already there. Are you born with Faith? This notion is at odds with many Protestant forms of thought. Faith is a gift and if so how does one get it.
Interesting question. I would say that all men are born with both the capacity to do good and to do evil. We have a sinful nature that causes us to sin. However, we are made in the likeness and image of God and before the fall were without sin (didn’t take long). So, yes, I suppose one is born with faith (or rather the capacity to have faith). When a pot is made of clay, it can hold water from the start. But it does not hold water until the maker fills it. Likewise, though we have the capacity to have faith at birth, God’s grace “lifts the lid” so the water of life can flow in. Faith produces salvation and therefore life.Explain your notion of Faith induced.
The “church” can be understood in many contexts, and is. In this context, I am viewing the church as a visible entity made of of people, predominantly Gentile believers after Christ. Alternatively, in this context, any particular church (Catholic or Protestant) or group of churches could be the meaning.Explain your understanding of “the church”…
Is it visible?
Is it invisible?
When did it come into being?
can it change?
Does it register all truth?
Explain your understanding of “church” so I may understand you.
Sure.The Church began at Pentecost.
I’m afraid we’re getting hopelessly off topic here, but I understand where you are coming from. Paul makes this clear in Acts 17: “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
I’m not trying to say that we shouldn’t be guided by the teaching of the church. But you have it backwards in saying that biblical interpretation should be contrasted by the Church teaching.
The Bereans were verifying an Oral Tradition that Paul spoke so this has nothing to do with what you are talking about.However, it is both dangerous and unbiblical to use the teaching of any church (Catholic or Protestant) as the standard for understanding the word of God.
Is it your belief that Church teaching came after the writing of Scripture? That is what you are implying. If that is true then there was no Church teaching for a time after Christ died and I don’t believe history will bear this out.Rather, Church teaching should be contrasted with the word of the Scriptures (and if you like to call it “interpretation”, that’s fine with me). Because, as Paul quotes from Deuteronomy in Romans 10:8, “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.”
You imply lack of trust in God. It is inferred that Christ founded a Church and the Church is the Bride…it is inherent that the Bride and Christ are united so that trust of the Bride is trust of Christ and Christ is God or do you deny this?You don’t trust God, only the Church? That is unfortunate. Or didn’t you mean that?
How is it you get grace? Explain it to me in simple terms. Grace is this…the Holy Spirit imparts it…and for anyone to get it they must…Well, Israel is definitely people. However, Israel the land is also God’s. cf. Leviticus 25:23 (and elsewhere): “The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.”
My knowledge comes from the grace I’ve been given through the Holy Spirit to understand God’s word. Study helps, but the Spirit “will guide you into all truth.” Am I always right? No. I may be wrong now. But I am confident that my interpretation is trustworthy, as I am guided into that understanding by the Spirit.
**So, you are telling me what Faith is not how it is acquired. To be induced implies it is already there. Are you born with Faith? This notion is at odds with many Protestant forms of thought. Faith is a gift and if so how does one get it.
Here I am lost in the wilderness, asking a question, hoping for an answer…since you believe you have found truth…and you say this…Explain your notion of Faith induced. **
Previously you stated this…Interesting question. I would say that all men are born with both the capacity to do good and to do evil. We have a sinful nature that causes us to sin. However, we are made in the likeness and image of God and before the fall were without sin (didn’t take long). So, yes, I suppose one is born with faith (or rather the capacity to have faith). When a pot is made of clay, it can hold water from the start. But it does not hold water until the maker fills it. Likewise, though we have the capacity to have faith at birth, God’s grace “lifts the lid” so the water of life can flow in. Faith produces salvation and therefore life
So, you are telling me that the Holy Spirit has failed you since the best you can do is say “interesting question”…are you not supposed to have a ready answer?My knowledge comes from the grace I’ve been given through the Holy Spirit to understand God’s word. Study helps, but the Spirit “will guide you into all truth.”
So,The “church” can be understood in many contexts, and is. In this context, I am viewing the church as a visible entity made of of people, predominantly Gentile believers after Christ. Alternatively, in this context, any particular church (Catholic or Protestant) or group of churches could be the meaning.
Okay Mr. Knowledge:My knowledge comes from the grace I’ve been given through the Holy Spirit to understand God’s word. Study helps, but the Spirit “will guide you into all truth.” Am I always right? No. I may be wrong now. But I am confident that my interpretation is trustworthy, as I am guided into that understanding by the Spirit.
“Church teaching” in this context means Catholic doctrine which is based on but not part of the Scriptures. The Church can and does teach truth. However, God’s people sin and “play the harlot” often. It is possible that the teaching of the Church can be wrong. It is God’s word that is not. So to base your understanding of the Bible upon Church teaching is relying on a foundation that could fail.The Bereans were verifying an Oral Tradition that Paul spoke so this has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
So, then are you saying that the Bible as you know it, based on what you believe, that the Church cannot teach truth?
Is it your belief that Church teaching came after the writing of Scripture? That is what you are implying. If that is true then there was no Church teaching for a time after Christ died and I don’t believe history will bear this out.
What is it you believe Paul is quoting Deuterotonmy for? What is it he is trying to say?
I only imply lack of trust in God since you stated: “I trust only the Church.” The Church is God’s people. Yet they can fall away from God, and are therefore not one with Him. The coming of Christ forgives this falling away, but we are and still will be imperfect until the final judgment.You imply lack of trust in God. It is inferred that Christ founded a Church and the Church is the Bride…it is inherent that the Bride and Christ are united so that trust of the Bride is trust of Christ and Christ is God or do you deny this?
I did not say this. However, the Bible came from God, not the Bride. Members of the Bride wrote it down, but it is God’s words, not theirs.Where is it you believe the Bible came from if not from the Bride?
How is it you get grace? Explain it to me in simple terms. Grace is this…the Holy Spirit imparts it…and for anyone to get it they must…
If you are not always right, and I agree, then you are relying on yourself that contradicts what the Bible says.
Here I am lost in the wilderness, asking a question, hoping for an answer…since you believe you have found truth…and you say this…
Previously you stated this…
So, you are telling me that the Holy Spirit has failed you since the best you can do is say “interesting question”…are you not supposed to have a ready answer?
You are telling me what Faith does, not how to get it. You say it is induced. Where is Faith? You are born. Do you have it at birth? Here I am languishing in a mire of ignorance, you come to this forum espousing something you believe to be true and I am all ears and you cannot tell me how you or anyone acquires Faith. You tell me it is induced and you cannot explain it.
You have the capacity for faith at birth. You do not have it. Like a clay jar, you have no faith until GRACE lifts the lid and FAITH pours in, giving life. Is that clear enough?Try again.
My comments about what was the Church were simply explaining the context I was using it. The Church is made up of believers, not unbelievers. Not that a Mormon couldn’t potentially be a believer, but it is likely that he is not part of the Church.So,
When anyone wants to find the Church they go looking for people…
Mormons have people, is this the Church?
any particular church is the church, so Anglicans are pedobaptists, Baptists are credobaptists and they disagree…if the Church is the Bride of Christ and the Holy Spirit leads you into all truth, is the Bride confused and does Christ accept this confusion in His Bride, and as the head is Christ unable to keep the Bride united?
I answer in the words of God to Job : “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.”Okay Mr. Knowledge:
Let’s start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
?
Quote:
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
1. Dispys say that there is a ‘church age gap’ between verse 26 and 27.
Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
It’s not there.
2. Dispys say that the ‘prince that shall come’ in verse 26 is different than ‘Messiah the Prince’ of verse 25.
How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.
It is an assumption. Daniel did not change the subject, he is still talking about the same Person. To ‘assume’ makes no grammanical or logical sense. It cannot be drawn out of the text.
Also:
**3.**Please find ANY referance of the ‘rapture’ in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.
One cannot.
4. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
One cannot.
5. Find ‘seven year tribulation’ in the Bible.
One cannot.
6. Find ‘revived Roman Empire’ anywhere in the Bible.
One cannot.
7. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.
One Cannot