I will refrain from commenting on the tone of the first part of your question so let’s get to the second part of it. It ain’t an interpretation if the post contains citation after citation of the Jewish bible, would you agree? ChosenPeople was kind enough to take his time and we can thank him for it.So,
What form of Judaism do you represent that provides this interpretation?
So your understanding is based on Paul, which is fine, too.Interpretation of OT/NT are through the OHCAC and differ.
The remnant, we believe, as taught by Paul in Romans are the diaspora that shall be brought into the fullness of Faith through the Church. That is my understanding.
There is no tone.I will refrain from commenting on the tone of the first part of your question so let’s get to the second part of it. It ain’t an interpretation if the post contains citation after citation of the Jewish bible, would you agree? ChosenPeople was kind enough to take his time and we can thank him for it.
So your understanding is based on Paul, which is fine, too.
My friend, I did answer it. If you don’t choose to accept my answer, I’m sorry about that. I really feel that these personal questions are benefitting neither you nor I. However, I will repeat it for you so you may not feel I sidestepped a question.You did not answer where you obtained an understanding of what Paul is saying in Romans when quoting Deuterotonomy. If you were making a Doctrinal statement then where does this doctrine originate and formulated by who or what?
This “school of thought” comes from the bible itself. He cited the bible. This is what you’re disussing, so why does it all of a sudden matter to you which movement or denomination he belongs to.There is no tone.
Is this tag team posting?
Rabinnical Judaism…
Reformed
Orthodox
Conservative
Haredi
Modern
Who is it or from what school of thought does this notion of Judaism spring from? There is no tone, just a question.
Concerning
Messianic Judaism=Protestant thought/Jewish…there are divisions here as well.
If there is no ability to trace the thought, then that is not my problem and that infers no tone.
A question is a question.
Try Paul. Romans 10:9 is a quote.are you kidding. You want me to believe that the Bible teaches this. Where in the Bible can you specifically point me to so that I have proof that the Bible teaches this?
The Mormons use the King James.
Jehovah Witness use the New World Translation Bible.
They follow teachings of the Bible just like you do. What makes your reading and interpreting any better than theirs?
I am not only a follower of Christ, but I am also a biblical scholar. I read the Tanakh (Old Testament) every day. For you to say that you see no evidence of God using human agency to liberate/punish Israel shows me that you do not.God did not need help to guide Israel in the Old Testament. I see no evidence of anyone other than God being ascribed as causing Isreal to be liberated, wander, punished, rewarded, etc.
To believe that we had to wait for the Protestant deformation/reformation, that gave rise to the invention of the Protocanonicals, that eventually evolved into Dispensational thinking, that caused British Evangelicals to influence the UN to create Israel is nonsense. God don’t need help to lead Israel. The tower of Babel is a good indication of that.
Israel of today is not the Isreal of the Bible.
I am curious why you provide an answer for someone else. Are they unable to answer for themselves?This “school of thought” comes from the bible itself. He cited the bible. This is what you’re disussing, so why does it all of a sudden matter to you which movement or denomination he belongs to.
This, my friend, is also a forum category about the Protestant view of Israel.You should dismiss yourself from this thread and get your information from your Muslim friend that satisfies you.
This is CAF, where if you look up to the left you will see…
To Explain and Defend the Faith.
What do you want, answers that please you or the truth?
Try Paul. Romans 10:9 is a quote.
The Mormons do not use the King James. They use the book of Mormon.
Regardless, a believer is one who “confesses with his mouth Jesus is Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead.” Whether Muslim, Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, Protestant or anything else. There are unbelievers and believers in all areas and sects of religion and Christianity.
You have been taught, and you believe that Romans as you point out is what makes someone a believer.Try Paul. Romans 10:9 is a quote.
You accused the different members of “tag-team posting”. Perhaps it is not those of us who agree and try to be respectful about our opinions and explanations who are wrong, but you are being disrespectful?I am curious why you provide an answer for someone else. Are they unable to answer for themselves?
Scott Hahn, John H. Gerstner, David Childers, Hans K. LaRondelle, Jews, combined with teachings of the OHCACThis, my friend, is also a forum category about the Protestant view of Israel.
How do you, a Catholic, presume to be qualified to answer questions in this category, since you are not a Protestant?
You keep quoting “The Israel of today is not the Israel of the Bible.” What, then, is the Israel of today? What people make it up? Where do you get your information? Who taught you these facts?
You can answer why it was written. It was written in the book why.You have been taught, and you believe that Romans as you point out is what makes someone a believer.
You agree this is from the Book of Romans, I would assume.
You agree that Paul wrote this, I would assume.
You agree that the Book of Romans has 16 chapters, I would assume.
To whom and for what reason was the letter to the Romans written?
Do you find it odd, that with 16 chapters, you find in the 10th chapter some notion that you were taught to believe has something to do with being what you call “a believer”?
You didn’t answer my first question. You only answered the convenient one. Unfortunately, it also shows that you base your understanding on the words of fallible humans rather than the Bible itself. You are to be pitied.Scott Hahn, John H. Gerstner, David Childers, Hans K. LaRondelle, Jews, combined with teachings of the OHCAC
Thank you for this exhaustive research. It is unfortunate that those who disagree do not read for themselves the word of God.The Jewish people have been chosen by God to fulfill special missions. God chose the Jewish people to be His servant, His witness (Isaiah 43:10)'to be a light unto the nations as examples of ethics and holiness and to lead the world back to God (Exodus 19:6 and Isaiah 42:6) and to bring the Messiah ben David into the world (Jeremiah 23:5, 1 Chronicles 17:11-12).
3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
- The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
- The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3
God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10
The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]
God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29
The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:
"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.
{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.
"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת
The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.
On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.
The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:
We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.
- have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
- be anointed King of Israel
- return the Jewish people to Israel
- rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
- bring peace to the world and end all war
- bring knowledge of God to the world
Paul tells you in Romans 1 why he is writing as follows:You can answer why it was written. It was written in the book why.
I do not find it odd, because Paul (A Jew) was explaining to NEW ROMAN BELIEVERS what the criteria for salvation was (faith). Amazing that you, who seem to be a catholic (and therefore hold yourself to be a believer) would find it odd and need to be told what the brand new believers 2000 years ago had to be told.
and he completes that thought at the end of the letter again…5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about [the] **obedience of faith **among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
His purpose is to bring about “the obedience of Faith”25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, [leading] to **obedience of faith; **27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
In Romans 3 he takes the Jewish Christians to task…and I challenge you, knowing how logical Paul is…when he says “first of all”…when does he conclude this dialogue to the Jews trying to force Circumcision and the Old Covenant on new Christians?1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect.** First of all, **that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
You keep quoting “The Israel of today is not the Israel of the Bible.” What, then, is the Israel of today? What people make it up? Where do you get your information? Who taught you these facts?
You probably know little of Aquinas, whose expertise was in knowing the opposition argument better than their own knowledge of their argument. You will find this same style of thinking in Paul and Jesus. Jesus knew what someone was thinking as He answered their questions, Paul learned it from Jesus, Aquinas learned it from Paul…This, my friend, is also a forum category about the Protestant view of Israel.
How do you, a Catholic, presume to be qualified to answer questions in this category, since you are not a Protestant?
That sounds like Jesus Christ to me.The Jewish people have been chosen by God to fulfill special missions. God chose the Jewish people to be His servant, His witness (Isaiah 43:10)'to be a light unto the nations as examples of ethics and holiness and to lead the world back to God (Exodus 19:6 and Isaiah 42:6) and to bring the Messiah ben David into the world (Jeremiah 23:5, 1 Chronicles 17:11-12).
3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
- The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
- The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3
God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10
The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]
God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29
The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:
"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.
{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.
"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת
The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.
On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.
The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:
We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.
- have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
- be anointed King of Israel
- return the Jewish people to Israel
- rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
- bring peace to the world and end all war
- bring knowledge of God to the world
That sounds like Jesus Christ to me.
Point 4 destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Be anointed King on David’s throne. Acts 2. Peace between Jew and Gentile check animosity ended check.
So, you would agree that this exhaustive research was helpful and led you to Christ and that disagreement does not mean that you don’t read the word of God for yourself.Thank you for this exhaustive research. It is unfortunate that those who disagree do not read for themselves the word of God.
Well you have to understand that the only people who can understand and interpret the Jewish scriptures are those without a full knowledge of Hebrew, or Judaism or works by Jewish Rabbinical scholars, who use translations, non Jewish commentaries and interpolate non Jewish ideas. Now as for the nation of Israel and its being the driving force of world redemption (an idea which you no doubt do not accept) and presuming you are unable to read the works in Hebrew, you might start with HaRav Avraham Yitzhak HaCohen Kook “Lights on Orot series” War and Peace".I am not only a follower of Christ, but I am also a biblical scholar. I read the Tanakh (Old Testament) every day. For you to say that you see no evidence of God using human agency to liberate/punish Israel shows me that you do not.
By the way, Dispensationalist thinking did not cause the UN to create the State of Israel. Rather, it was because of the horrors of the Holocaust which the Jews suffered that caused the nations to enact God’s plan and bring them back to the land.
Here are a few verses showing how God uses human agency:
Jeremiah 5:15 “Behold, I will bring a nation against you from afar,
O house of Israel,” says the Lord.
“It is a mighty nation,
It is an ancient nation,
A nation whose language you do not know,
Nor can you understand what they say.
16 Their quiver is like an open tomb;
They are all mighty men.”
2 Chronicles 36:22-23
"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,
23 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the Lord his God be with him, and let him go up!"
Because this is an open internet forum. You’re not in your inbox privately messaging to one another.I am curious why you provide an answer for someone else.
Am I really answering this question…Are they unable to answer for themselves?