Protestant view of Israel.

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I’m not interested in personal conversations on this forum. We can discuss it privately.
However, the issue is that any time anyone discusses anyone else’s teaching without directly quoting, it is an interpretation of the first person’s words.
You are doing an interpretation of an interpretation (Hahn) of an interpretation (Aquinas), even possibly of another interpretation (Paul, depending on what subject) of Jesus’ teaching. That’s a dangerous place to be since there is a lot of room for error.
I have no more nor less authority to interpret Scripture than Aquinas or Hahn, provided they are/were sincere believers. That also applies to you.
You are probably not familiar with the importance and understanding of Oral Tradition in Christianity and Judaism as you are describing.

Do you deny that Oral Tradition in Judaism and Christianity are worth mentioning or worhty of study?
 
  1. The Mayans and Aztecs were not God’s chosen people
  2. The Mayans and Aztecs were not expressly told they would return to the promised land
  3. Israel is, and was.
So here we differ as to why they were chosen. They were chosen to produce a Messiah. Done.

I don’t believe that they were chosen to have the UN take land from the Palestinians. We disagree and since you are fallible in your understanding of the Bible there can only be disagreement and no discussion.

I believe you have been misled.
 
So here we differ as to why they were chosen. They were chosen to produce a Messiah. Done.

I don’t believe that they were chosen to have the UN take land from the Palestinians. We disagree and since you are fallible in your understanding of the Bible there can only be disagreement and no discussion.

I believe you have been misled.
CC, who do you believe to be Palestinians?
Which land did they occupy that you believe the UN took from them?
Where did you get your knowledge of who you believe Palestinians to be?
Obviously there has not always been a land called Palestine so, was it called something else before?
If Palestine had a prior name, what was it called and who resided there?
 
Ah, human beings, so you are referring to American Indians. Noted.

That question was not posed to you, but thank you for your response, which doesn’t answer any of my questions. I wasn’t aware you were the spokesman for all Catholics. Is that an honorary position or do you collect compensation of some kind?

With all due respect, if you’re going to respond to my specific questions, especially when not posed to you, please respond in kind. Be specific. Otherwise, you’re wasting both my time and yours.

Thank you. 🙂
 
CC, who do you believe to be Palestinians?
Which land did they occupy that you believe the UN took from them?
Where did you get your knowledge of who you believe Palestinians to be?
Obviously there has not always been a land called Palestine so, was it called something else before?
If Palestine had a prior name, what was it called and who resided there?
Let us make this easy.

Jews lost their land to other people and have no right to have it returned to them. Whoever occupied the land, by whatever name you call them, had that land prior to the UN motivated by British Protestant Evangelicals, duped by Dispensationalism to do so.

Is that better for you?
 
There are a few historical facts that cannot be dodged when it comes to this issue.
In biblical times there was a great deal of ethnic and even religious mixing in ancient Judea and Israel. The Old Testament prophets were often railing against this mixing, particularly in religious terms and intermarriage. Moreover, even during that time, there were Jewish communities established in Arab lands, in Persia, as well as in East and North Africa.
With the destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Roman colony of Judea in 70 AD, the indigenous farmers, craftsmen and small-time traders stayed put and continued their lives as before. Some of these inhabitants were early Christians and were the ancestors of many of today’s Palestinian Christians, others remained vaguely Jewish. Those who left with the Romans later dispersed to other parts of Europe and even central Asia.
Modern research shows that when Islam arrived in the area in 638 AD many of these Jews converted and that their descendants form a considerable part of today’s Palestinians.
Many European Jews, consisted of Khazars, inhabitants of a kingdom in the early middle ages, roughly between the Caspian and the Black Seas. One of their kings converted to Judaism around 740 AD and made Judaism the state religion.
In the 9th century Khazaria finally fell to the Viking hordes and its inhabitants dispersed throughout much of Europe.
Following WW1, there were 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine. Whether they offcially referred to themselves as Palestinians is immaterial. They were the owners and the inhabitnants of the land.
To believe that God, would uproot a people (the Palestinians) from their land based on the fact that they were not Jewish (even though many may have been if one traced thier bloodlines), and based on a novel reading of Scripture that even ancient Jews would have laughed at, is absurd.
And it is certainly not Christian.
 
There are a few historical facts that cannot be dodged when it comes to this issue.
In biblical times there was a great deal of ethnic and even religious mixing in ancient Judea and Israel. The Old Testament prophets were often railing against this mixing, particularly in religious terms and intermarriage. Moreover, even during that time, there were Jewish communities established in Arab lands, in Persia, as well as in East and North Africa.
With the destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Roman colony of Judea in 70 AD, the indigenous farmers, craftsmen and small-time traders stayed put and continued their lives as before. Some of these inhabitants were early Christians and were the ancestors of many of today’s Palestinian Christians, others remained vaguely Jewish. Those who left with the Romans later dispersed to other parts of Europe and even central Asia.
Modern research shows that when Islam arrived in the area in 638 AD many of these Jews converted and that their descendants form a considerable part of today’s Palestinians.
Many European Jews, consisted of Khazars, inhabitants of a kingdom in the early middle ages, roughly between the Caspian and the Black Seas. One of their kings converted to Judaism around 740 AD and made Judaism the state religion.
In the 9th century Khazaria finally fell to the Viking hordes and its inhabitants dispersed throughout much of Europe.
Following WW1, there were 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine. Whether they offcially referred to themselves as Palestinians is immaterial. They were the owners and the inhabitnants of the land.
To believe that God, would uproot a people (the Palestinians) from their land based on the fact that they were not Jewish (even though many may have been if one traced thier bloodlines), and based on a novel reading of Scripture that even ancient Jews would have laughed at, is absurd.
And it is certainly not Christian.
Perfect,

A thorough and concise explanation of the following summary…
Jews lost their land to other people and have no right to have it returned to them. Whoever occupied the land, by whatever name you call them, had that land prior to the UN motivated by British Protestant Evangelicals, duped by Dispensationalism to do so.
Thank you…👍
 
The expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492 was the impetus for the voyages of Columbus and the New World. This “discovery” of the New World will lead to the founding of the Colonies in America. The Colonists will rebel against Britain and France will aid the Colonists in their rebellion against the British. As a result of the rebellion, the United States of America will come into being. This French aid to the rebellion will cause increased taxation and hardship for the French people who will in turn rebel against the French King bringing Napoleon to power. Napoleon will bring about the emancipation of the Jews and their becoming citizens in the countries in which they reside and the beginning of equal rights. This process will lead to the creation of modern Zionism and eventually to re-independence of the Jewish people in their eternal homeland. The first country to immediately recognize Israel and which will later become an essential ally of Israel will be the United States.
With all due respect this narrative is simplistic and makes no sense. The history is far more complicated.
The fate of Jews in European countries, mainly in Eastern Europe, was filled with persecutions, killings and burnings The Jews were forced to live in closed ghettos, particularly in the Russian Empire. The earliest Zionists, calling themselves “Hovevei Zion” (Lovers of Zion), started the first settlements in Palestine in the 1840’s.
Fast forward to 1916, after there had been an agreement with the British Government that after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria would gain independence, leaders of the Arab communities called upon every Arab Muslim, Christian and Jew to rise against the Ottomans. Many did.
The promise was not kept.
The film “Lawrence of Arabia” dramatized it quite well.
Lord Balfour wrote in 1919:
“In Palestine, we do not even propose to consult the inhabitants of the country and (Zionism’s) immediate needs and hopes for the future are much more important than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine”.
So, in actual fact, the mess that exists today in the Middle-East is the result of broken promises, spearheaded by the very countries that caused it: Britian and the United States.
Broken promises have consequences.
 
So here we differ as to why they were chosen. They were chosen to produce a Messiah. Done.
This belief is based on a faulty understanding and reading of the Scriptures.
God states very clearly that His whole purpose in choosing Israel was to bring glory to Himself.
Isaiah 48:11: “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.”
I don’t believe that they were chosen to have the UN take land from the Palestinians. We disagree and since you are fallible in your understanding of the Bible there can only be disagreement and no discussion.
I believe you have been misled.
To be misled, one must be also led by someone. As I have stated that I read and follow God’s word only, that is what I am led by. You have stated you follow Aquinas, Hahn, and other writers, so that is who you are led by. As God may be “proved true, even though all men are liars,” it is very obvious that there is only one of us who is misled.
 
We disagree on the letter to the Romans, repeated in the letter to the Galatians and a constant theme in many of Paul’s writings including Corinthians that you missed. You may not be aware that the problem of Jews trying to Judaize Christians was a constant theme in time and John Chrysostom wrote about this as well “Judaizing Christians”…

So, it appears that your fallible interpretation differs from mine and I belive you are wrong.
As I said. The disagreement is in your own mind. It’s important to remember that the first “Christians” were entirely Jews.
 
You are probably not familiar with the importance and understanding of Oral Tradition in Christianity and Judaism as you are describing.

Do you deny that Oral Tradition in Judaism and Christianity are worth mentioning or worhty of study?
I don’t even wish to answer this question because it is spoken without knowledge. Of course I know about the Oral traditions. Are they worth mentioning? YES. But they are not the basis for understanding, and that’s where you trip up. Jesus’ whole argument with the Pharisaical leadership of his day was that they “did not understand the Torah, but instead on manmade traditions” (such as the “Korban” rule). Do you really want to emulate their behavior?
 
Again, I’m puzzled. This is supposed to be a forum where we find the Protestant view of Israel, not the Catholic one. Make another forum post if you want to talk about Catholic views of Israel, and I won’t include myself.
 
Let us make this easy.

Jews lost their land to other people and have no right to have it returned to them. Whoever occupied the land, by whatever name you call them, had that land prior to the UN motivated by British Protestant Evangelicals, duped by Dispensationalism to do so.

Is that better for you?
Of course they have no right. We’re not talking about rights. Jews can be the most stubborn, stiff-necked, mean people alive. That’s why it’s so amazing that God chose them.
I call your attention to this huge factor: blessing and curse.
We know for certain that curses (think the Fall) given a long time ago still plague us.
Now I draw your attention to the speech of Balaam, speaking the words of God, where he states about Israel: “May those who bless you be blessed and those who curse you be cursed!”

If you bless Israel (Yes, the Jews are part of Israel) you will be blessed. Don’t curse yourself by doing the opposite.

No nation that has ever stood against Israel has survived intact. Babylon, Assyria, Aram, Amalek, Greece, Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and recently Germany, Jordan, Syria, Gaza…
They are cursed because they curse Israel.
 
There are a few historical facts that cannot be dodged when it comes to this issue.
In biblical times there was a great deal of ethnic and even religious mixing in ancient Judea and Israel. The Old Testament prophets were often railing against this mixing, particularly in religious terms and intermarriage. Moreover, even during that time, there were Jewish communities established in Arab lands, in Persia, as well as in East and North Africa.
With the destruction of the Temple and the fall of the Roman colony of Judea in 70 AD, the indigenous farmers, craftsmen and small-time traders stayed put and continued their lives as before. Some of these inhabitants were early Christians and were the ancestors of many of today’s Palestinian Christians, others remained vaguely Jewish. Those who left with the Romans later dispersed to other parts of Europe and even central Asia.
Modern research shows that when Islam arrived in the area in 638 AD many of these Jews converted and that their descendants form a considerable part of today’s Palestinians.
Many European Jews, consisted of Khazars, inhabitants of a kingdom in the early middle ages, roughly between the Caspian and the Black Seas. One of their kings converted to Judaism around 740 AD and made Judaism the state religion.
In the 9th century Khazaria finally fell to the Viking hordes and its inhabitants dispersed throughout much of Europe.
Following WW1, there were 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine. Whether they offcially referred to themselves as Palestinians is immaterial. They were the owners and the inhabitnants of the land.
To believe that God, would uproot a people (the Palestinians) from their land based on the fact that they were not Jewish (even though many may have been if one traced thier bloodlines), and based on a novel reading of Scripture that even ancient Jews would have laughed at, is absurd.
And it is certainly not Christian.
Remember that the Christian belief was originally Jewish. Therefore it is Christian.
Remember also that God clearly states in the Torah (Exodus 12:49 and elsewhere) that a foreigner living in Israel who wanted to believe in the God of Israel could become part of Israel. Look at the stories of Ruth and even the sons of Joseph, who had an Egyptian mother.
Ethnicity itself is a small issue. The main issue is that we have two warring groups, one who believes in the heritage and God of Israel and one who curses that group and wants to destroy them. God gave the land of Israel to His people. It is His land. So regardless of ethnicity, the land belongs to God’s people, of whom the Jews are foremost. God promised they would be brought back. They have been. We recognize it as a fulfillment of God’s promise.
 
This belief is based on a faulty understanding and reading of the Scriptures.
God states very clearly that His whole purpose in choosing Israel was to bring glory to Himself.
Isaiah 48:11: “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this.
How can I let myself be defamed?
I will not yield my glory to another.”
As a Protestant you are fallible and subject to error. I cannot agree.
To be misled, one must be also led by someone. As I have stated that I read and follow God’s word only, that is what I am led by. You have stated you follow Aquinas, Hahn, and other writers, so that is who you are led by. As God may be “proved true, even though all men are liars,” it is very obvious that there is only one of us who is misled
Well then, you won’t believe this, but there was this guy named John Nelson Darby that invented this same thinking long ago around the turn of the century and he was wrong as well. So as not to be misled, you cannot lead.
 
As I said. The disagreement is in your own mind. It’s important to remember that the first “Christians” were entirely Jews
Let me see. Is it possible that agreement and disagreement exist in the mind?

If anything as it regards agreement or diagreement can it exist anywhere but in the mind?

Understanding that it is important to remember requires me to use my recall. Does my recall and understanding also reside in my mind or elsewhere?

The first Christians were entirely Jews? Does this mean that there were not even one Gentile? Were not the Apostles split to minister to the Jews and to the Gentiles? Who was the Apostle to the Gentiles? To whom were all of Paul’s letters addressed to Gentile or Jewish Christians?
 
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luthier93:
I don’t even wish to answer this question because it is spoken without knowledge. Of course I know about the Oral traditions. Are they worth mentioning? YES. But they are not the basis for understanding, and that’s where you trip up. Jesus’ whole argument with the Pharisaical leadership of his day was that they “did not understand the Torah, but instead on manmade traditions” (such as the “Korban” rule). Do you really want to emulate their behavior?
I really don’t blame you. You had me at wish. Oral Traditions are not the basis for understanding you say and I speak without knowledge. Your understanding is remedial, based on other than reality and suggesting what it is you believe it to be asking that anyone choose not to emulate something you have come to know is far from scholarship. I suggest you and others spend some time here…The secular world understands what you do not…and this is spoken with knowledge…

The Journal Of Oral Tradition understands that communication is via words, shared among peoples, and has dedicated an entire volume to…

journal.oraltradition.org/issues/list
• Oral Tradition Journal
• E-ISSN: 1542-4308 Print ISSN: 0883-5365
What those in the know are aware of and those that pretend to know have no knoweldge of…

journal.oraltradition.org/issues/25i
Oral Tradition in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Oral Tradition Volume 25, Number 1March 2010
 
Again, I’m puzzled. This is supposed to be a forum where we find the Protestant view of Israel, not the Catholic one. Make another forum post if you want to talk about Catholic views of Israel, and I won’t include myself.
There you go misleading…here is what the OP stated…
Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel. I’m assuming this is because they are (they were?) the chosen people.
Can anyone explain why they think of them as so important now? I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?
*maybe it’s just the protestants i know that think this way.
Show me where the OP asks for a Prostestant view of Israel to be explained by Protestants excusively.
 
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