Protestant view of Israel.

[CopticChristian]

Of course they have no right. We’re not talking about rights. Jews can be the most stubborn, stiff-necked, mean people alive. That’s why it’s so amazing that God chose them.
I call your attention to this huge factor: blessing and curse.
We know for certain that curses (think the Fall) given a long time ago still plague us.
Now I draw your attention to the speech of Balaam, speaking the words of God, where he states about Israel: “May those who bless you be blessed and those who curse you be cursed!”

If you bless Israel (Yes, the Jews are part of Israel) you will be blessed. Don’t curse yourself by doing the opposite.

No nation that has ever stood against Israel has survived intact. Babylon, Assyria, Aram, Amalek, Greece, Rome, the Ottoman Empire, and recently Germany, Jordan, Syria, Gaza…
They are cursed because they curse Israel.

The dirt organized by the UN is not Israel so there is no concern whether we stand or don’t stand with this invention.

 

[CopticChristian]

Remember that the Christian belief was originally Jewish. Therefore it is Christian.
Remember also that God clearly states in the Torah (Exodus 12:49 and elsewhere) that a foreigner living in Israel who wanted to believe in the God of Israel could become part of Israel. Look at the stories of Ruth and even the sons of Joseph, who had an Egyptian mother.
Ethnicity itself is a small issue. The main issue is that we have two warring groups, one who believes in the heritage and God of Israel and one who curses that group and wants to destroy them. God gave the land of Israel to His people. It is His land.

So regardless of ethnicity, the land belongs to God’s people, of whom the Jews are foremost. God promised they would be brought back. They have been. We recognize it as a fulfillment of God’s promise.

I am going to take exception to that. The land belongs to God. When Jesus set foot on dirt, all dirt became sanctified and was made Holy so that there is not one piece of dirt on this planet any better than any other…because God does not occupy any particular part of the dirt He created and sanctified…whatever land that was given to the people of Israel is and has been lost…gone, gone, gone…and what the UN created is not Israel…it ain’t a Holy Nation, a Nation of Priests…it is dirt.

it ain’t anyone’s…it is His…

 

[cajunhillbilly]

To call dispensationalism “THE” Protestant view is misleading. If anything it is a minority view even amongst evangelicals. It just happens to be popular in America. If you read the major Protestant theologians you will find that they do NOT teach it. Luther didn’t, not did any of the Lutheran theologians after him. Calvin didn’t, the Reformed didn’t. The Puritans did not teach it. Nor did the Pietists. Johnathan Edwards, considered one of the greatest American theologians did not teach it. The great A A Hodge did not. B B Warfield did not. So on and so on. Only those influenced by John Nelson Darby and Scofield teach it. So please do not think dispensationalism is the view of most Protestants. It just isn’t so.

 

[CopticChristian]

To call dispensationalism “THE” Protestant view is misleading. If anything it is a minority view even amongst evangelicals. It just happens to be popular in America. If you read the major Protestant theologians you will find that they do NOT teach it. Luther didn’t, not did any of the Lutheran theologians after him. Calvin didn’t, the Reformed didn’t. The Puritans did not teach it. Nor did the Pietists. Johnathan Edwards, considered one of the greatest American theologians did not teach it. The great A A Hodge did not. B B Warfield did not. So on and so on. Only those influenced by John Nelson Darby and Scofield teach it. So please do not think dispensationalism is the view of most Protestants. It just isn’t so.

I do not think anyone thinks that Dispensationalism as outlined by Luthier and others believing in it is “THE Protestant” view of Eschatology. Since Luthier says the only source for study is the Bible I would not expect Luthier to know or understand that Eschatology is…

Historical Premillinialism
Amellinialism
PostMillinealism
Premillinialism/Dispensationalism with flavors of pre-trib, post-trib etc…hyperdispensationalism

Since, more likely than not those that bare the moniker “messianic” have no clue that they are embracing Protestant thought, and less ability to know that they have embraced Dispensationalism as they went through their Bible studies, they do not know or are they aware…

That this is a view…not The view…

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Remember that the Christian belief was originally Jewish. Therefore it is Christian.
Remember also that God clearly states in the Torah (Exodus 12:49 and elsewhere) that a foreigner living in Israel who wanted to believe in the God of Israel could become part of Israel. Look at the stories of Ruth and even the sons of Joseph, who had an Egyptian mother.
Ethnicity itself is a small issue. The main issue is that we have two warring groups, one who believes in the heritage and God of Israel and one who curses that group and wants to destroy them. God gave the land of Israel to His people. It is His land. So regardless of ethnicity, the land belongs to God’s people, of whom the Jews are foremost. God promised they would be brought back. They have been. We recognize it as a fulfillment of God’s promise.

Why even quote me if you are not going to address the post? You just reiterate your “talking points”.
First of all, your first sentence makes no sense. Christianity came from from Judiasm so therefore Judism is Christianity? Is that the Gospel according to John Hagee? First time I ever heard that.
Second, you seem to think that modern Jews and Arabs are “pure blood” without any mixture of other ethnic bloodlines. That’s an interesting, if anthropological impossibility.
Thirdly, throwing out Bible verses and stories does not in any way support or even address the point.
Why not address the post instead of lapsing back into your talking points?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

To call dispensationalism “THE” Protestant view is misleading. If anything it is a minority view even amongst evangelicals. It just happens to be popular in America. If you read the major Protestant theologians you will find that they do NOT teach it. Luther didn’t, not did any of the Lutheran theologians after him. Calvin didn’t, the Reformed didn’t. The Puritans did not teach it. Nor did the Pietists. Johnathan Edwards, considered one of the greatest American theologians did not teach it. The great A A Hodge did not. B B Warfield did not. So on and so on. Only those influenced by John Nelson Darby and Scofield teach it. So please do not think dispensationalism is the view of most Protestants. It just isn’t so.

I agree.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Remember also that God clearly states in the Torah (Exodus 12:49 and elsewhere) that a foreigner living in Israel who wanted to believe in the God of Israel could become part of Israel. Look at the stories of Ruth and even the sons of Joseph, who had an Egyptian mother.
Ethnicity itself is a small issue.

Second, you seem to think that modern Jews and Arabs are “pure blood” without any mixture of other ethnic bloodlines. That’s an interesting, if anthropological impossibility.

Son of Niall–I haven’t been following this thread, but here, at any rate, luthier seems to be saying the opposite of what you think he’s saying. It looks like he’s saying, yes, Jews have incorporated people who are not blood descendants of Abraham into Jewry.

 

[AbideWithMe]

There are a few historical facts that cannot be dodged when it comes to this issue.

Many European Jews, consisted of Khazars, inhabitants of a kingdom in the early middle ages, roughly between the Caspian and the Black Seas. One of their kings converted to Judaism around 740 AD and made Judaism the state religion.
In the 9th century Khazaria finally fell to the Viking hordes and its inhabitants dispersed throughout much of Europe.

Son of Niall–This isn’t a fact. It’s a theory, and a pretty thoroughly refuted one at that. The weight of DNA evidence falls towards the side of Ashkenazi Jews having some limited but widespread Eastern European bloodlines–possibly Khazar–incorporated into their predominately Middle Eastern bloodlines. That’s no surprise.

 

[AbideWithMe]

To call dispensationalism “THE” Protestant view is misleading. If anything it is a minority view even amongst evangelicals. It just happens to be popular in America. If you read the major Protestant theologians you will find that they do NOT teach it. Luther didn’t, not did any of the Lutheran theologians after him. Calvin didn’t, the Reformed didn’t. The Puritans did not teach it. Nor did the Pietists. Johnathan Edwards, considered one of the greatest American theologians did not teach it. The great A A Hodge did not. B B Warfield did not. So on and so on. Only those influenced by John Nelson Darby and Scofield teach it. So please do not think dispensationalism is the view of most Protestants. It just isn’t so.

I agree too.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I do not think anyone thinks that Dispensationalism as outlined by Luthier and others believing in it is “THE Protestant” view of Eschatology. Since Luthier says the only source for study is the Bible I would not expect Luthier to know or understand that Eschatology is…

Historical Premillinialism
Amellinialism
PostMillinealism
Premillinialism/Dispensationalism with flavors of pre-trib, post-trib etc…hyperdispensationalism

Since, more likely than not those that bare the moniker “messianic” have no clue that they are embracing Protestant thought, and less ability to know that they have embraced Dispensationalism as they went through their Bible studies, they do not know or are they aware…

That this is a view…not The view…

In my experience with Messianic Jews, it became clear to me that their view of God’s everlasting promises to the people of Israel came less from Protestant Dispensational teaching and more from the Jewish teaching that God’s promises are ongoing.

I haven’t followed what luthier said in every post, so I’m not commenting on his posts. I just intend to point out that there is more than one source of the belief that the Jews are meant by God to return to the land of Israel.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Since, more likely than not those that bare the moniker “messianic” have no clue that they are embracing Protestant thought, and less ability to know that they have embraced Dispensationalism as they went through their Bible studies, they do not know or are they aware…

That this is a view…not The view…

Why assume people are so unaware? I have known some very scholarly, extremely intelligent, curious and astute Messianic Jews. Why assume other people, not of your particular religious persuasion, are naive and uninformed?

 

[chosen_people]

Here is the original OP. Here your post goes far beyond what the OP asked.

Jews of the OT do not exist today. They are descendants. There is no temple. There are no animal sacrifices. Rabinic Judaism is not one thing and they disagree amongst each other as to the Israel of today being the Israel of the Bible. There is no consensus. Protestant thought is an invention of disobedient Catholics that spawned numerous forms of thinking that would include The Church of Ireland/John Nelson Darby/Dispensationalism and all the stuff that is taught by those that accept and believe this nonsense…read about this here…

etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/52/52-3/JETS%2052-3%20569-577%20Sweetnam-Gribben.pdf

Jews were chosen to be the light to other nations and to produce the messiah. Mission accomplished. What is it you want for Jews other than to recognize that if they were chosen, they were chosen for a purpose and that purpose was fulfilled. Be grateful to your ancestors. These ancestors you will read were stiff necked, hard hearted, disobedient, yet faithful to one God and from them we learned what happens when you are stiff necked, hard hearted, disobedient and faithful to one God.

Israel is not a religous state. The OT says, according to Moses that Israel will be a nation of priests…I don’t see that in the middle east, do you?

What more do you want?

Well in one respect Coptic Christianity. still believes “the Jews” are “the Jews”.

What is the Vatican apologizing for?" Patriarch Shinoda III said in his April 8, 2007 appearance on Egypt’s Dream 2 TV. “It has done nothing that warrants an apology. I don’t like things that are done for appearance’s sake. Everything must have depth and reasons. What are they apologizing for?”

When the interviewer noted that the Catholic Church had apologized for describing Jews as “Christ killers,” Patriarch Shinoda responded, “The New Testament says that they (Jews) are. Is the Vatican against the teachings of the New Testament?”

archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5057_14.htm

 

[CopticChristian]

In my experience with Messianic Jews, it became clear to me that their view of God’s everlasting promises to the people of Israel came less from Protestant Dispensational teaching and more from the Jewish teaching that God’s promises are ongoing.

I haven’t followed what luthier said in every post, so I’m not commenting on his posts. I just intend to point out that there is more than one source of the belief that the Jews are meant by God to return to the land of Israel.

Great,

So now we gather experiences, sit around a campfire and sing Kumbaya or not

So, let us take this notion that Jews are meant to return to the land of Israel, and since this thread is about “Protestant View of Israel”…must we not admit that this view, ie the Protestant view is the topic.

With that in mind…Trace any Christian group you like, that has a belief that Israel is the Israel of th Bible from now, back in time and demonstrate for me their beliefs, their teachings, where they can be found or…admit…it emanates from Protestant thought and be done with it…

 

[CopticChristian]

Why assume people are so unaware? I have known some very scholarly, extremely intelligent, curious and astute Messianic Jews. Why assume other people, not of your particular religious persuasion, are naive and uninformed?

It would appear that your knowledge and understanding comes from people you know and is a valid but not the only valid source of reliable information. How unaware might you imagine Luthier is that the beliefs that Luthier has are Protestant.

The answer to that question can be obtained by knowing the answer to one question…

Version?

 

[CopticChristian]

Well in one respect Coptic Christianity. still believes “the Jews” are “the Jews”.

What is the Vatican apologizing for?" Patriarch Shinoda III said in his April 8, 2007 appearance on Egypt’s Dream 2 TV. “It has done nothing that warrants an apology. I don’t like things that are done for appearance’s sake. Everything must have depth and reasons. What are they apologizing for?”

When the interviewer noted that the Catholic Church had apologized for describing Jews as “Christ killers,” Patriarch Shinoda responded, “The New Testament says that they (Jews) are. Is the Vatican against the teachings of the New Testament?”

archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5057_14.htm

I am unable to comment on a news article from the anti-defamation league. Anti-semitism is not the heart of any of this and to frame anything in this thread as anti-semitism is wrong. The thread is about “Protestant View of Israel”…

You might wonder about what the Dispensationalist have in mind for Jews

againstdispensationalism.blogspot.com/2011/07/anti-semitism-and-dispensationalism.html

Such works argue that Christianity’s claim that Christ is the only way of salvation – and even that he is the Jewish Messiah, are anti-Semitic and must be removed from Scripture!

**Second, to make matters worse: dispensationalism ends up encouraging current-day actions that will (they admit!) lead to a wholesale slaughter of the Jews. **What do I mean?

Dispensationalists delight in Israel’s 1948 re-establishment as a nation. They rejoice in the great number of Jews who have already and will yet return to Israel. They gladly encourage modern Israeli policies that draw Jews back into the Land. The excitedly look for the rebuilding of the Jewish temple — by Jews who have returned to the land of Israel.

For instance, The Tim LaHaye Prophecy Study Bible exults: “the regathering of a people once scattered among the nations of the world is evidenced that God is at work in fulfilling His prophetic word” (p. 1080). On the same page it continues: “the most exciting, documented evidence that the Lord’s return could be close at hand is the activity surrounding preparations for the rebuilding of the temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.”

The Protestant/Dispensationalist view of Israel is anti-semitic…now there you have something to get your teeth into…

 

[AbideWithMe]

In my experience with Messianic Jews, it became clear to me that their view of God’s everlasting promises to the people of Israel came less from Protestant Dispensational teaching and more from the Jewish teaching that God’s promises are ongoing.

I haven’t followed what luthier said in every post, so I’m not commenting on his posts. I just intend to point out that there is more than one source of the belief that the Jews are meant by God to return to the land of Israel.

Great,

So now we gather experiences, sit around a campfire and sing Kumbaya or not

So, let us take this notion that Jews are meant to return to the land of Israel, and since this thread is about “Protestant View of Israel”…must we not admit that this view, ie the Protestant view is the topic.

With that in mind…Trace any Christian group you like, that has a belief that Israel is the Israel of th Bible from now, back in time and demonstrate for me their beliefs, their teachings, where they can be found or…admit…it emanates from Protestant thought and be done with it…

Coptic–

You are the one who was talking about the Messianic Jewish belief that Jews are meant to return to the land of Israel. I was trying to point out–pretty clearly, I thought—that this belief has its earliest origin in Judaism. And, I said that from my experience —listening to speakers and reading books by Messianics over a period of around 7 years—that it was clear to me that they were drawing this belief from Judaism more so than from any form of Dispensationalism.

I, as a Christian, am not a dispensationalist; but, I believe God has promised to return the Jewish people to the land of Israel and never again uproot them. Whether that has happened already only time will tell. I believe it likely that it has happened.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It would appear that your knowledge and understanding comes from people you know and is a valid but not the only valid source of reliable information. How unaware might you imagine Luthier is that the beliefs that Luthier has are Protestant.

The answer to that question can be obtained by knowing the answer to one question…

Version?

My knowledge and understanding comes from people I know, speakers I’ve heard, and writers whose works I’ve read.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I am unable to comment on a news article from the anti-defamation league. Anti-semitism is not the heart of any of this and to frame anything in this thread as anti-semitism is wrong. The thread is about “Protestant View of Israel”…

You might wonder about what the Dispensationalist have in mind for Jews

againstdispensationalism.blogspot.com/2011/07/anti-semitism-and-dispensationalism.html

The Protestant/Dispensationalist view of Israel is anti-semitic…now there you have something to get your teeth into…

Coptic–I’m looking at the controversial passage in question in an NIV Study Bible, which is reputed to be the most popular study Bible with Evangelicals. It’s Zechariah 13:7-9, though the blogger you quoted put it at Zechariah 14:8-9.

The notes point to this prophecy probably being fulfilled already:

Zech. 13:7–“This part of the verse (13:7–‘Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’) is quoted by Jesus not long before his arrest (Mt. 26:31, Mk. 14:27) and applied to the scattering of the apostles (Mt. 26:56, Mk. 14:49-50), who in turn are probably typological of the dispersion of the Jews in A.D. 70 and subsequent years.”

Zech. 13:8-9–“These verses ( 'In the whole land, ’ declares the LORD, ‘two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it…’) depict a refining process for Israel (see note on Isaiah 48:10).”

Note on Isaiah 48:10–" refined…tested. Images of judgment (see Jer. 9:7, Eze. 22:18-22). Purifying fire is also mentioned in 1:25; 4:4. furnace of affliction. For Israel, Egypt had been an 'iron-smelting furnace (Dt. 4:20; 1 Kings 8:51; Jer. 11:4). The fall of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile were a similar furnace."

There’s nary a peep here in these notes about this prophecy in Zechariah 13 being a future event. If it was the predominant Evangelical view that it was something in the future, there would be some mention of that view in the notes.

 

[meltzerboy]

So here we differ as to why they were chosen. They were chosen to produce a Messiah. Done.

I don’t believe that they were chosen to have the UN take land from the Palestinians. We disagree and since you are fallible in your understanding of the Bible there can only be disagreement and no discussion.

I believe you have been misled.

We were “chosen” for neither. Rather, we were chosen to make the One G-d known to the world, and it seems we have done so through Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism. However, this purpose or mission has little to do with the Jewish concept of the Messiah and has everything to do with the Eternal Covenant that the Jewish people via Moses received from G-d at Mount Sinai.

 

[CopticChristian]

My knowledge and understanding comes from people I know, speakers I’ve heard, and writers whose works I’ve read.

Then you would have to agree that you have not met all people, know all people, heard all people speak and read all that has been written and your understanding and knowledge is yet to be complete.