Protestant view of Israel.

[meltzerboy]

Exactly. Remember, though, why the Gentile Christians were evangelized?
Jesus says clearly to the Samaritan woman who asks for her son’s healing that He came for the salvation of the Jews: “It is not right to take the children’s food and toss it to their pet dogs.” And yet, “the builders rejected” Him. So then, Jesus met Paul and told him that he would send him to the Gentiles.
Also remember the story of Cornelius. Peter’s vision causes him to realize that it was not really about food, but rather that God was giving Gentiles the opportunity to believe and be saved.
Now, to be fair, it is not the only reason that there may be non-jewish believers, such as Ruth. But the reason why Gentiles as a whole were given the opportunity to be saved was because the Jews rejected the promise.

Are you saying that if all (or most) of the Jews had accepted Jesus as the Messiah (and G-d), then the Apostles would not have brought the Gospel to the other nations? Would the Jews have thus remained a priestly people carrying the New Covenant to other people without the establishment of a Church, according to your view?

 

[luthier93]

Are you saying that if all (or most) of the Jews had accepted Jesus as the Messiah (and G-d), then the Apostles would not have brought the Gospel to the other nations?

No, it wasn’t God’s plan to do it that way, so it therefore would not have happened. But theoretically you can say this could have been the case.
I hate to say that, though, because though the Jews’ rejection of Jesus opened the way for the Gentiles, God’s plan was always that it would happen that way…so it couldn’t have happened any other way. Am I making sense?

 

[meltzerboy]

No, it wasn’t God’s plan to do it that way, so it therefore would not have happened. But theoretically you can say this could have been the case.
I hate to say that, though, because though the Jews’ rejection of Jesus opened the way for the Gentiles, God’s plan was always that it would happen that way…so it couldn’t have happened any other way. Am I making sense?

Within a religious context, yes, but ONLY within this context!

 

[AbideWithMe]

Exactly. We agree fully here. God has definitely promised that Israel will return to the land.
Now, they have returned…can anyone give me a reason why this isn’t fulfilled prophecy? Or explain why the prophecies would not come true? It’s not easy.

Jews are divided on this. Most support Israel, whether or not they think its establishment as a Jewish State is an indication of the beginning of the fulfillment of prophecy. However, a minority, mainly the Satmar Hasidic movement (who recently held a demonstration, largely unreported by the media), maintain that only the Messiah at the end of days is meant to usher in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland. And some Reform Jews, for their own liberally chic reasons without much belief in a Messiah, protest that Israel is a political state only that is subjugating the Palestinian people.

This is well stated, Meltzerboy. But I want to highlight that as you said, even the Satmar Hasidic movement believes the Jews will return to the land of Israel ultimately. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the belief that all promises from God have already been long ago fulfilled regarding the Jews and the land of Israel, is not part of any traditional form of Judaism.

 

[meltzerboy]

This is well stated, Meltzerboy. But I want to highlight that as you said, even the Satmar Hasidic movement believes the Jews will return to the land of Israel ultimately. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the belief that all promises from God have already been long ago fulfilled regarding the Jews and the land of Israel, is not part of any traditional form of Judaism.

That is correct. The history of the Jewish people is far from completed.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Exactly. We agree fully here. God has definitely promised that Israel will return to the land. And they will never again be uprooted. This prophecy was never fulfilled by their earlier returns.
Now, they have returned…can anyone give me a reason why this isn’t fulfilled prophecy? Or explain why the prophecies would not come true? It’s not easy.

(Bolding is my insertion.)

Only time will tell. I see no reason to discount or scorn the strong possibility that it is fulfilled prophecy. God used Cyrus before to return the Jews to Israel; He can use the UN if He wishes now. The people of Israel were not sinless nor perfect when He returned them before; I see no reason why they must be sinless upon their return now.

 

[CopticChristian]

(Bolding is my insertion.)

Only time will tell. I see no reason to discount or scorn the strong possibility that it is fulfilled prophecy. God used Cyrus before to return the Jews to Israel; He can use the UN if He wishes now. The people of Israel were not sinless nor perfect when He returned them before; I see no reason why they must be sinless upon their return now.

Cyrus was a gentile leader…not the League of Nations and not a group of people…one man…and you want to equate the UN with an instrument of God? Gotta wonder?

The OT is a parade of leaders…Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, etc…not one mention of organizations that were the instruments of God…may I suggest you consider how the Synagogue was viewed…

You need to read Exodus…says nothing about Israel being sinless…but it does say that Israel will be a Kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation that it is not…

Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 4You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. 5Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

 

[CopticChristian]

You seem to forget that you also are subject to error. If you indeed believe you are not, I’m wasting my time discussing with you since you are puffed with pride. Moreover, it is not I who said those words but God Himself. Is He subject to error?

So, herin lies the problem…since everyone is subject to error…and the word of God is not…we can never have absolute knowledge when there is disagreement among those that are subject to error.

 

[CopticChristian]

That is correct. The history of the Jewish people is far from completed.

This would be true for the Mexicans, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Vietnamese, the Greeks, the Portuguese, and everyone united by genetics and then of course those united by belief…the Muslims, the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholics, etc…

 

[meltzerboy]

This would be true for the Mexicans, the Japanese, the Chinese, the Vietnamese, the Greeks, the Portuguese, and everyone united by genetics and then of course those united by belief…the Muslims, the Protestants, the Orthodox, the Catholics, etc…

Coptic, I was responding to a specific point made by AbideWithMe regarding whether the promises of G-d to the Jewish people were already fulfilled long ago according to Judaism. Please re-read the original post for clarification.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, I was responding to a specific point made by AbideWithMe regarding whether the promises of G-d to the Jewish people were already fulfilled long ago according to Judaism. Please re-read the original post for clarification.

agreed…

 

[CopticChristian]

This is well stated, Meltzerboy. But I want to highlight that as you said, even the Satmar Hasidic movement believes the Jews will return to the land of Israel ultimately. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that the belief that all promises from God have already been long ago fulfilled regarding the Jews and the land of Israel, is not part of any traditional form of Judaism.

We know only little of all the promises of God. We know that as Paul says in Romans that the Gentiles are a law unto themselves and are circumcised of the heart and the law is written on their hearts. So we know nothing of any promises written on their hearts so that all promises of God are not entirely known. You see in Corinthians that the spirit searches the mind of God and what is known of the mind of God is not entirely contained in any book.

10For to us God revealed [them] through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11For who among men knows the [thoughts] of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? **Even so the [thoughts] of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. **

We only know what we know by way of Revelation and we don’t know all that can be revealed.

 

[Avdima]

As a non Christian believer in Jesus Christ. I look to history and say “OMFG” are the Jews so blessed.

IMHO one cannot look at the total history of the world and for one second think the Jews and by extension Israel is not guided by a much larger force than we humans can imagine.

The amount of abuse the Jewish people have been through in the last 3,000 years of history and yet the amount of advancements they have accomplished gives me chills.

Israel as a people and a nation might of turn their back on G-d but G-d never really turned away from his chosen.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a non Christian believer in Jesus Christ. I look to history and say “OMFG” are the Jews so blessed.

The amount of abuse the Jewish people have been through in the last 3,000 years of history and yet the amount of advancements they have accomplished gives me chills.

IMHO one cannot look at the total history of the world and for one second think the Jews and by extension Israel is not guided by a much larger force than we humans can imagine.

Then you will understand that Israel lost their land.

Israel as a people and a nation might of turn their back on G-d but G-d never really turned away from his chosen.

What advantage does the Jew have? What benefit is their in Circumcsion? Great in every way. Has God abandoned His people, by no means, for to them was given the utterance of Scripture. What shall we say then are we better than they? No, as it has been established that Greek and Gentile are under the power of sin.

 

[luthier93]

As a non Christian believer in Jesus Christ. I look to history and say “OMFG” are the Jews so blessed.

IMHO one cannot look at the total history of the world and for one second think the Jews and by extension Israel is not guided by a much larger force than we humans can imagine.

The amount of abuse the Jewish people have been through in the last 3,000 years of history and yet the amount of advancements they have accomplished gives me chills.

Israel as a people and a nation might of turn their back on G-d but G-d never really turned away from his chosen.

Exactly, that’s why I understand or believe this UN decision to create the state of Israel as fulfillment of prophecy. And Abide is right, no other return has fulfilled the fact that they will never be uprooted. Will this? We don’t know for sure yet, but it may.

 

[CopticChristian]

Exactly, that’s why I understand or believe this UN decision to create the state of Israel as fulfillment of prophecy. And Abide is right, no other return has fulfilled the fact that they will never be uprooted. Will this? We don’t know for sure yet, but it may.

What Bible passage leads you to believe that the UN is an instrument of God?

 

[Diplomat]

What Bible passage leads you to believe that the UN is an instrument of God?

I agree with you regarding the UN, I don’t know why people think UN acted on the will of God in creating the state of Israel. UN is full of aetheists, Bhuddists, Shintoists, Bahais, Hindus, Taoists, Sikhists and other 4,200 religions according to Wikipedia.

 

[rinnie]

Hey Everyone,
I’ve been curious as to why a lot* of Protestants seem to be really into the country/people of Israel. I’m assuming this is because they are (they were?) the chosen people.

Can anyone explain why they think of them as so important now? I mean, aren’t Catholics really the continuation of the chosen people?

Thanks!

*maybe it’s just the protestants i know that think this way.

No, the Jews are and always will be the chosen people of God.

Because the Jews rejected Christ the good news came to the gentiles.

But the Jews were always the chosen people of God, and I believe will someday come back to him in his church.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Coptic–Regarding your questions to me: I’m just dropping by to acknowledge I saw them and I’ll try to reply when I have time.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic–Regarding your questions to me: I’m just dropping by to acknowledge I saw them and I’ll try to reply when I have time.

You are thoughtful and bring a smile to my face