Protestant View of Mariology

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Protos said:
What about Stephen who was also “full of grace”? (Acts 6:8) Was he also sinless and immaculately conceived?
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Stephen was “pleres charitos”–full of grace as any Christian is who has been baptized and has not sinned.

Regarding Mary:

In Luke 1:28 the word that the angel uses is kecharitomene. So its not literally “full of grace” but its root word is the Greek verb “to give grace” (charitoo). The word is the past perfect tense, thus it means that the action of giving grace has already occurred. It was not something that was about to happen to her, but something that has already been accomplished. The word was also used as a title. The angel did not say, “Hail Mary you are kecharitomene,” but rather, “Hail kecharitomene.” Therefore the word is not simply an action but an identity.

It is thus difficult to translate because it is a unique use of the word. It has been translated by various scholars as full of grace, graced one, one who has been made graced, highly graced, and highly favored. In the last instance the translator is using the concept that to be graced by God is to find favor with God. It would appear that any translation should use the word “grace” because that is the root word, however it might sound “clunky” to some, they might think “highly favored” is more title sounding than “full of grace” and there is nothing inherently incorrect theologically about asserting that Mary was favored by God. I would consider the Immaculate Conception to be proof that Mary was favored by God.

Because of the familiarity people have with the Hail Mary prayer and the connotation that Protestant translators use “highly favored” to deny Catholic dogmas, the Lectionary for use at Mass still uses the term “Hail full of grace!” However neither is technically an incorrect translation.–Fr. Charles Grondin
 
There is considerable attention devoted to the blessed Virgin Mary on this forum. That is good so long as our eyes are never taken off Jesus, the Virgin’s Son and our Lord and Savior. Lutherans need to be reminded that holy Mary is the most honored and blessed Mother of God. And as Luther wrote, only second to Christ.

I believe, however that our devotion to St Mary should never be divisive. If one prefers to focus solely on the redeeming salvation that is ours though Jesus Christ, that is OK, too.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
There is considerable attention devoted to the blessed Virgin Mary on this forum. That is good so long as our eyes are never taken off Jesus, the Virgin’s Son and our Lord and Savior. Lutherans need to be reminded that holy Mary is the most honored and blessed Mother of God. And as Luther wrote, only second to Christ.

I believe, however that our devotion to St Mary should never be divisive. If one prefers to focus solely on the redeeming salvation that is ours though Jesus Christ, that is OK, too.
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:yup:
 
Weissystems said:
We do not worship Mary. We venerate her. No matter how many times you explain this to some people you have the syndrome of “none so deaf as those who do not want to hear”. In one ear and out of the other. As soon as you have explained it they come back at you with “you lot worship Mary”.

WWW.CATHOLICPRAYERGROUP.NET
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The thing is when compared to the Eastern Churches who also love and adore the Theotokos, the Roman Church has either tip-toed the line of fully crossed it between veneration and worship. I think what is lost on many people is that while it is okay to venerate the Theotokos, there is still a line that needs to be kept and maintained on what proper veneration is.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Yes, true Catholicity which is found in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is the Orthodox Church 👍
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Again, borrowing from St. Augustine, it appears that everyone wants to claim to be Catholic, but when someone comes to your town and asks where the nearest Catholic church is, no one will point him to your church, CTG.
 
PRmerger said:
Again, borrowing from St. Augustine, it appears that everyone wants to claim to be Catholic, but when someone comes to your town and asks where the nearest Catholic church is, no one will point him to your church, CTG.
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That’s true. There is both an EOC and a CC in my town (pretty close to each other) and if someone asked where the nearest CC was they would not send them to the EOC,🤷
 
The dwelling place of the Lord is within you, He is within you as Paul and Luke state. Constantine was right in this understanding. In this very real way the incarnation is also understood. One of the greatest mysteries of the Church. All the mysteries are a deeper Biblical understanding and well documented also by the early church fathers and clearly with Origen. They transcend this reality to the Lords reality which we continue to glimpse in the upward push which is cooperation with Grace.

Its not a matter of having the Truth in regards to the redeeming act of the Cross for many protestants around the 4th Council. Its a matter of the Fullness of Truth which is revealed through the Sacred Mysteries, the order of Grace instituted by Divinity. Not us, God.

Its right to understand all worship is reserved for the Lord. It is incorrect to disregard the Sacred Mysteries in a stripped understanding of the fullness of truth. This is what leads us back to these conversations. Catholic’s hold absolute to the principle that Salvation is of Jesus Christ and this is self-evident again in history and reality. Its that many today do not have the remainder of the mysteries intact, and the response is Christian division and persecution in many regards for the Tradition of the Apostolic Church’s, this is not of God. That’s the same attack we have been contending with since day one, also well documented, and addressed by Bishop Ware above. So the thinking is right above by EC “devotion to St Mary should never be divisive.” At this point it not uncommon within the Apostolic Church’s/Catholic for members to be completely Christ centered, but, they do not do this in slight of the other mysteries for they are a constant through the liturgical year as is the cycle of Sacred Scripture.

So then its not a matter of Truth but Fullness of Truth which I believe when that’s heard other’s also take this as a slight, its not, its the proper perspective. The mysteries are Christ centered which is the bread of our life, when you say Mary, She echo’s Jesus and presents Him from Her perspective, which we have no better. And that story is not in Scripture, but it is communicated through Wisdom. And for sure, ministers who slight this reality in favor of their own opinion, are in conflict with the Godhead, for the order of Grace is established by “Him” not a man with a story/message in conflict with the Lords.
 
PRmerger said:
Again, borrowing from St. Augustine, it appears that everyone wants to claim to be Catholic, but when someone comes to your town and asks where the nearest Catholic church is, no one will point him to your church, CTG.
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So you’re assuming any random person is knowledgeable which Church is the true Church?
 
ConstantineTG said:
So you’re assuming any random person is knowledgeable which Church is the true Church?
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Ha, right, and they may suggest you visit the Mormon Church [it looks pretty, that’s what Eve thought]. you may well get the “other” response on that path.
 
Sure it is, but contrary to what PR stated; “where is the nearest Catholic church” which indicates the seeker knows what they are seeking, being the Catholic Church. 🙂
 
GaryTaylor said:
Sure it is, but contrary to what PR stated; “where is the nearest Catholic church” which indicates the seeker knows what they are seeking, being the Catholic Church. 🙂
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I didn’t quite understand the question or statement? I suppose if a person is familiar with the Catholic Church and Orthodox church, and someone asks them where the CC is, they will point to the church called the CC. Seems reasonable. 🤷
 
joe371 said:
I didn’t quite understand the question or statement? I suppose if a person is familiar with the Catholic Church and Orthodox church, and someone asks them where the CC is, they will point to the church called the CC. Seems reasonable. 🤷
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Right, that’s my understanding.
 
Origen-Fundamental Doctrines

" Moreover , it is of ecclesiastical teaching that the Sacred Scriptures were written through the Spirit of God, and that they have not only that meaning which is quite apparent, “but another which escapes most.” For the words are written in the forms of certain mysteries, and the images of the Divine. In this matter the opinion of the Church is one: that the whole law is indeed spiritual: the spiritual meaning which the law conveys, however, is not known to all, but only those on whom the Grace of the Holy Spirit is bestowed in the word of wisdom and knowledge."

You see, what we are talking about is nothing new. Here we see the foolishness of disregarding teaching handed down through the age’s in a teaching capacity in Alexandria and Antioch, by the most respected who taught in this period.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Ha, right, and they may suggest you visit the Mormon Church [it looks pretty, that’s what Eve thought]. you may well get the “other” response on that path.
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Here’s the thing, not every Church that has “Roman Catholic Church” in the signboard outside is even in communion with the Pope of Rome. For that matter, not every Church that has “Orthodox” in the signboard is in communion with the Orthodox Church.
 
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