Protestant vs. Cafeteria Catholic?

[Peter_J]

The kind of Catholicism sometimes shown on CAF seems dead and passionless by comparison, as if the message that Christ came to set us free got replaced by a rule book.

I’ve been in conversations before about what patterns may be seen among posts from Catholics … But rather than argue with your description let me put out this question: does it really matter? If I post something, the Catholic Church remains unchanged, regardless of whether what I posted was good or bad.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Let’s put it this way - anyone who goes around judging souls is sinning big-time. He’s usurping Christ as our only judge (James 4:11-12). If he also thinks he’s any better then he could be in for a nasty surprise (Luke 18:9-14). And the very idea of stereotyping certain types of Catholics sows discord in his church (Romans 14). Oh dear oh dear .

In a city not far away, many Catholics are in special interest clubs, which meet in Holy Week to compete in horsemanship, etc. The two main fraternities sit opposite each other to cheer their own side and boo the others. They shoulder or pull floats, pasos, of Christ and Mary. The floats are works of art and there are fine embroideries and so on. It’s a tourist attraction now but every town does similar on a smaller scale. All the generations join in, it’s tradition. - youtube.com/watch?v=5D801M4OKzM

See from Good Friday this year the Paso Azul carrying Christ and Mary, including pointy hats and Mary being ticker-taped, from minute 9 to 13.

Some may not go to church often, and use condoms, approve of equal marriage, etc., but that’s not necessarily how they define their Catholicism. The kind of Catholicism sometimes shown on CAF seems dead and passionless by comparison, as if the message that Christ came to set us free got replaced by a rule book. Maybe those Spanish Catholics have more in common with these Pentecostals from Australia.

Thanks for sharing! Is that in Spain. Beautiful!

 

[inocente]

inocente;14597469:

The kind of Catholicism sometimes shown on CAF seems dead and passionless by comparison, as if the message that Christ came to set us free got replaced by a rule book.

I’ve been in conversations before about what patterns may be seen among posts from Catholics … But rather than argue with your description let me put out this question: does it really matter? If I post something, the Catholic Church remains unchanged, regardless of whether what I posted was good or bad.

CCC 752 says “The Church is the People that God gathers in the whole world”. As a non-Catholic, the notion of Church as an abstraction isn’t very meaningful. So yes, of course the views of individuals matter, since their views reflect what they have been taught. Were they taught that the Church can radiate enthusiasm, or had nothing left to say after Aquinas? Were they taught to be spiritual or to stamp on spirituality? That God is alive, or that God is a rule-book?

Thanks for sharing! Is that in Spain. Beautiful!

Thanks, yes. Spain knows how to party.

 

[Peter_J]

CCC 752 says “The Church is the People that God gathers in the whole world”.

Vatican-II-inspired nonsense.



Kidding …

So yes, of course the views of individuals matter, since their views reflect what they have been taught.

You can – nay, should – care about the views of individuals. If I say X you’re quite welcome to say “Peter J (presumably you don’t know my real name, nor that of almost everyone on here) says X, and I care about that.” The question is, do you likewise care about the other 999,999,999 Catholics in the world?

 

[Vonsalza]

Allow me to jump in for a sec;

…of course the views of individuals matter, since their views reflect what they have been taught.

Well, not entirely. Personal views are the teachings that people have decided to internalize from many, many sources. An authoritative Church is not beholden to any one particular person’s view; especially if that view is contrary to the deposit of faith.

Were they taught that the Church can radiate enthusiasm, or had nothing left to say after Aquinas?

False dichotomy on multiple levels. I know lots of enthused Catholics (actually, most I know are). And the notion that the Church had nothing left to say after Aquinas either betrays a lack of study of the post-Aquinas Church or an unreasonable bias towards Aquinas. He was just one of legions of brilliant Catholics. I think our contemporary Dr. Peter Kreeft is Aquinas-level brilliant. He does, however, lack the benefit of being listed among the “August Dead” - as he is still alive. Death has a funny way of slowly exaggerating and minimizing different aspects of a person over time.

That God is alive, or that God is a rule-book?

If that God is Christ, He’s both. He is life. But He also has some things to say about sin. Let us not forget that after Christ graciously saved the harlot from stoning, He told her to sin no more.

This is not “The Church of Either/Or”. This is the Catholic (Universal, Whole) Church.

 

[phil19034]

CCC 752 says “The Church is the People that God gathers in the whole world”. As a non-Catholic, the notion of Church as an abstraction isn’t very meaningful. So yes, of course the views of individuals matter, since their views reflect what they have been taught. Were they taught that the Church can radiate enthusiasm, or had nothing left to say after Aquinas? Were they taught to be spiritual or to stamp on spirituality? That God is alive, or that God is a rule-book?

I agree with you 100% AND I disagree with you 100%

It is true that individuals are a reflection. And it’s very true that in the Protestant world, the congregation is a reflection of the pastor. But in the Catholic Church, the congregation is more of a reflection of the parents & the local society.

The reason is because Protestants typically attend a Church that matches their own personal views. If a Protestant believes in abortion and birth control, they can attend a Church where those things are ok. If a Protestant believes that drinking alcohol is immoral, he/she can attend a parish where that is taught; etc. Point is protestant churches are mostly homogeneous (politically, economically, worship preference, etc)

And even the Orthodox are pretty homogeneous, at least ethnically.

But Catholics typically attend the Church nearest to their homes. The parish is a subset of the local community. People from all walks of life attend at the Catholic Church, across all political, economic, ethnic, racial divides and even across worship preferences. So in a Catholic Church, if the local community is not a tight knit community, the parish might be either. Because again, for better or worse, the Catholic parish is typically a heterogeneous snapshot of the local society.

Addtionally - you mention what they were taught… this too supports my comments above because in the protestant (esp evangelical) churches, the pastor is very active in teaching the faith via his/her sermons. But in the Catholic Church, the primary educators of the faith are still Mom & Dad. If the parents are poorly trained in the faith, their kids will be poorly taught***.

*** Though this is slowing changing, at least in the United States, where Adult Faith Formation courses and opportunities are growing as the Church starts embracing the New Evangelization.

God Bless

 

[inocente]

Vatican-II-inspired nonsense.



Kidding …

You can – nay, should – care about the views of individuals. If I say X you’re quite welcome to say “Peter J (presumably you don’t know my real name, nor that of almost everyone on here) says X, and I care about that.” The question is, do you likewise care about the other 999,999,999 Catholics in the world?

Vatican-II. Is that like Fast And Furious 8? Must have missed it, maybe it went straight to DVD.

Kidding…

It’s not that I necessarily care about what to me are bunches of pixels.The views of individuals reflect what they have been taught, and therefore Catholicism as it really is for them. Real life versus glossy brochures. Must leave for the day now, but will check your stunningly accurate count of the Catholics in the world.

 

[Peter_J]

Vatican-II. Is that like Fast And Furious 8? Must have missed it, maybe it went straight to DVD.

Kidding…

It’s not that I necessarily care about what to me are bunches of pixels.The views of individuals reflect what they have been taught, and therefore Catholicism as it really is for them. Real life versus glossy brochures. Must leave for the day now, but will check your stunningly accurate count of the Catholics in the world.

Donald Trump made numerous comments about his likelihood of becoming President, based on the crowds at his rallies. I don’t think that’s valid reasoning – although granted he did actually win as it turns out. (Obviously I expect you to follow American politics. )

There’s also the old “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”: I could go to a Protestant website and find a post that says “The sun revolves around the earth. Catholics worship the Devil” and say See that’s what Protestants are like.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Whose soul is in a better position, or which is more desirable to be?

A “Cafeteria Catholic” baptized in the faith, who attends mass every Sunday, but who picks and chooses Catholic Dogmas freely (same sex marriage,sex before marriage, etc. etc.) almost making God in their own image? or

A devout Protestant who sincerely believes the Catholic Church is a distortion of Christ’s message but who takes the bible seriously and truly believes in the grave evils of the aforementioned sins.

I ask this because I think for far too many Catholics, Catholocism is just a cultural thing, almost on par with being Irish or Italian, and so they count themselves Catholic without having much of a serious faith to back up the claim. I notice this is practically never the case with serious evangelicals/baptists.

Any ideas?

Your point is well taken. The cafeteria Catholic you describe sounds like the lukewarm that Christ would vomit from his mouth. The philosopher Jacques Maritain called them "practical atheists. I’m supposing that he and I would agree that the sincere Protestant is dealing with a partial deck but the cafeteria Catholic has dealt himself a very losing hand indeed.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

John 7:24

“Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging justly.”

 

[inocente]

Well, not entirely. Personal views are the teachings that people have decided to internalize from many, many sources. An authoritative Church is not beholden to any one particular person’s view; especially if that view is contrary to the deposit of faith.

You may have over-analyzed my post just a bit but sure. Personal views also reflect what has not been taught. And which teachings are or not accepted.

inocente;14597939:

Were they taught that the Church can radiate enthusiasm, or had nothing left to say after Aquinas?

False dichotomy on multiple levels. I know lots of enthused Catholics (actually, most I know are). And the notion that the Church had nothing left to say after Aquinas either betrays a lack of study of the post-Aquinas Church or an unreasonable bias towards Aquinas. He was just one of legions of brilliant Catholics. I think our contemporary Dr. Peter Kreeft is Aquinas-level brilliant. He does, however, lack the benefit of being listed among the “August Dead” - as he is still alive. Death has a funny way of slowly exaggerating and minimizing different aspects of a person over time.

Wikipedia has articles on 118 contemporary Catholic philosophers and theologians. I’ve seen only two or three get mentioned on CAF, the biggest fan clubs swooning over Kreeft and Fesser (who only gets mentioned as an apologist for Aquinas).

To give a longer version of my sentence, I’ve known numerous posters who claim philosophy died after the Scholastics. Francis Bacon onwards is far too modern, what with ladies showing their ankles, you call that music, the only True Catholic™ is a Republican, all scientists are against religion, and where will it all end, we’re doomed I tells thee, doomed. Which doesn’t exactly sound like a lively welcoming church.

If that God is Christ, He’s both. He is life. But He also has some things to say about sin. Let us not forget that after Christ graciously saved the harlot from stoning, He told her to sin no more.

And He got very angry with legalistic Pharisees.

This is not “The Church of Either/Or”. This is the Catholic (Universal, Whole) Church.

The ‘Church is both and not either/or’ meme sounds wishy-washy, and doesn’t seem to be true anyway - the Church clearly isn’t both for atheism and theism, etc. I live in a country where most people are Catholic, so I’m aware they have a wide range of views.

 

[inocente]

I agree with you 100% AND I disagree with you 100%

It is true that individuals are a reflection. And it’s very true that in the Protestant world, the congregation is a reflection of the pastor. But in the Catholic Church, the congregation is more of a reflection of the parents & the local society.

The reason is because Protestants typically attend a Church that matches their own personal views. If a Protestant believes in abortion and birth control, they can attend a Church where those things are ok. If a Protestant believes that drinking alcohol is immoral, he/she can attend a parish where that is taught; etc. Point is protestant churches are mostly homogeneous (politically, economically, worship preference, etc)

And even the Orthodox are pretty homogeneous, at least ethnically.

But Catholics typically attend the Church nearest to their homes. The parish is a subset of the local community. People from all walks of life attend at the Catholic Church, across all political, economic, ethnic, racial divides and even across worship preferences. So in a Catholic Church, if the local community is not a tight knit community, the parish might be either. Because again, for better or worse, the Catholic parish is typically a heterogeneous snapshot of the local society.

Addtionally - you mention what they were taught… this too supports my comments above because in the protestant (esp evangelical) churches, the pastor is very active in teaching the faith via his/her sermons. But in the Catholic Church, the primary educators of the faith are still Mom & Dad. If the parents are poorly trained in the faith, their kids will be poorly taught***.

*** Though this is slowing changing, at least in the United States, where Adult Faith Formation courses and opportunities are growing as the Church starts embracing the New Evangelization.

God Bless

And God bless you. You explained the difference very clearly. To complete the picture, polls indicate more than 4 out of 10 Americans change their religion anyway, some more than once. I don’t know if that’s more or less than those who change their bank .

Some posters lump all Protestants together as if they have one view, and lump all Catholics together as if they have one view. But for instance, ask either is heaven a place, and some say yes and others of course not. Even though philosophers and theologians once agreed that heaven is beyond the stars, where God lives, apparently they changed their mind and decided it’s silly to think it’s a place. But a lot of ordinary people think it’s silly to say heaven isn’t a place, as if it’s a state of mind or an abstraction. Of course it’s a place, it’s where their spirit flies to when they die, the hymns say so, everyone knows that. May not be what the Church teaches, but it’s what many believe anyway.

 

[Vonsalza]

Francis Bacon onwards is far too modern, what with ladies showing their ankles,

I think there are few highlights of creation more glorious than when summer comes and the ladies don their shorts and skirts. What a sinner I am.

And He got very angry with legalistic Pharisees.

He totally did. He also respected who they were and the position they held.

Matthew 23:3 “So practice and observe everything they (the Pharisees) tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.”
(Parentheses mine)

I live in a country where most people are Catholic, so I’m aware they have a wide range of views.

Same in my country. I’m just not as “sold” as you are on the idea that just because someone thinks something, it must have some merit or be true.

 

[o_mlly]

Whose soul is in a better position, or which is more desirable to be?..

At our judgement, I do not think the Lord will ask us about our religious affiliations but rather, “Who do you say that I am? (Mat 15:16)” and “Do you love Me? Did you keep my commands?” (John 14:15, 23)"

The Church is an instrument, not an end. The ordinary means of achieving salvation is the Catholic Church and her sacraments. But we cannot limit God; for Him the extraordinary is ordinary. He loves us too much to do less.

 

[inocente]

Donald Trump made numerous comments about his likelihood of becoming President, based on the crowds at his rallies. I don’t think that’s valid reasoning – although granted he did actually win as it turns out. (Obviously I expect you to follow American politics. )

There’s also the old “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander”: I could go to a Protestant website and find a post that says “The sun revolves around the earth. Catholics worship the Devil” and say See that’s what Protestants are like.

Donald Trump. No, can’t say it rings a bell. America you say. Went there once. It was closed.

Yes, you could say that’s what Protestants are like, and I’d heartily agree just to see where it leads. And yes, CAF is a small sample of Catholics, and those who frequent the philosophy forum are not a representative cross section.

But if you’re arguing that their views don’t represent Catholicism, that implies you think being Catholic has not changed them, therefore that God hasn’t shaken their lives.

Perhaps I’m just less skeptical than you.

 

[TechieGuy]

God only knows…

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Donald Trump. No, can’t say it rings a bell. America you say. Went there once. It was closed.

The southern border has been open for eight years. You missed your chance?

 

[inocente]

The southern border has been open for eight years. You missed your chance?

My understanding is that virtually everyone south of that border is Catholic.

So when Trump closes the border, it’s either to stop Catholics getting in or Texans getting out.

Either way you’ll miss the party. - youtube.com/watch?v=VMp55KH_3wo (play excessively loud, preferably with two sub woofers, it’s the Spanish way)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Either way you’ll miss the party.

One Mexican party I’d be glad to miss.

panampost.com/panam-staff/2015/06/08/mexicos-ruling-party-clings-to-majority-in-violent-elections/

 

[Vonsalza]

CAF is a small sample of Catholics, and those who frequent the philosophy forum are not a representative cross section.

That’s certainly true.

What’s also true is that you couldn’t obtain an indubitably “representative cross section” without a sizable and purely random selection from all of the worlds 1.2 billion Catholics.

Another thing that’s true is the fact that the religious views of any particular Catholic may not represent the teaching of the Church. This fact in particular is one you seem to have substantial difficulty internalizing. Thus, a “representative cross section” may represent the values held by the average Catholic, but it does not provide, in any way, whether or not those views are orthodox, or genuinely “Catholic”.

The truth of the Church doesn’t flow “bottom up” like it does in most evangelical denominations. It’s “top down”, as it always has been with God and His prophets & priests then Christ and His disciples. Being wrong is absolutely a possibility.

But if you’re arguing that their views don’t represent Catholicism…

Hold it right there.

The Catholic Church is an authoritative Church. The magisterial authority exists outside of any particular believer.

Catholic “A” thinks gay marriage is “ok” from a religious perspective. Catholic “B” thinks it is not.

The Church independently identifies only one of them as being correct in their views. Catholic “B” is obedient to the truth, Catholic “A” is not.