B
BrianH
Guest
At some stage Manny you might consider people understand your perspective and disagree…
- Status
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
Part 1
To say that Protesants teach new doctrines not found in the Bible is a bit far fetched to say the least. Even though you claim that salvation by faith is a new doctrine it is actually the exact doctrine taught directly by Paul, John, James and Christ himself. A thorough study of the entier doctrine will confirm this. That is not to say that there are not difficulties. There are, But the number of clear unequivical verses within this doctrine far out number the number of difficulties.
Perhaps fewer topics discussed among Christians provoke so much opinion than that of eternal salvation. The question, can you lose your salvation once you’re saved? Possibly another way of looking at this issue is to ask yourself, how do you live in grace? What do you do with the word that God left for you and how do you handle His promises? To take just a brief look at this issue we have to look at the word of God itself to understand what God has said about studying His word and seeking discernment. Next, explore the issue of “works” and how it applies or does not apply to our salvation. This is a brief look at these issues. There exists such a depth to Gods word when dealing in His promises that we could not possibly cover it all in this article.
Proverbs 2:1-6 teaches us how to study His word……”My son if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom.”
We are taught to accept His words. From there, we are to internalize His commands. They are to become apart of us. They are to be in us. Then we can ask for wisdom and turn towards it. But we are also taught to cry out. To seek. It is from this place that God can and will bless us with the discernment we are seeking. Proverbs 3: 5 further teaches us to not rely on what we think but to trust in our Lord for His understanding. “lean not on your own understanding……” It is this divine wisdom that so often contradicts the world’s ideas and perceptions.
2nd Timothy 3:15-17 Teaches us that all scripture is God breathed and that they are holy and can make us wise for salvation. 4: 3-4 teaches us that there is a time when people will turn away from sound doctrine and gather around them a great number of people to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
The world is for the most part in direct opposition to the divine.
At times we apply worldly thinking to a divine word. We struggle with forgiveness in our own hearts. We are still walking around with our past sinful selves often controlling our steps. Deeply perhaps, not always on the surface but nonetheless we often view the word through eyes of a sinner first and a child of God, saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ last.
John 12: 35-36 ……”The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. Put your trust in the light while you have it so that you may become sons of the light.”
We ARE to put our trust in Him. But we struggle with that and too often our belief that we are so unworthy of this gift of salvation is so potent that we take our trust back. Another issue comes into play here as well. Our humaness. Being human in our condition we try to live like Jesus Christ but our relationships with others are constantly full of conditions. We love people but….we will trust you until….I’ll forgive you if… perhaps we also at times apply these same human conditions to our understanding or lack of understanding of scripture. Further on in John we read John 12:44-46 “ When a man believes in me he does not believe in me only but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.”
Lets try to leave this condition for a moment and place our attention on His word alone. Jesus is our light. He is our lamp and we are to trust Him. So if we are to trust Him and His word then what does the word say about salvation.
Romans 3:24 “we are justified freely by His grace. Through the redemption that came through Jesus Christ”
Notice the words “freely” and “His Grace”. Not our works.
Salvation is an act of faith. In fact it is “the” act of faith.
Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law” Note the words “apart from” If God wanted to mean “in addition to” He would have said that. But He said “apart from” .
To say that Protesants teach new doctrines not found in the Bible is a bit far fetched to say the least. Even though you claim that salvation by faith is a new doctrine it is actually the exact doctrine taught directly by Paul, John, James and Christ himself. A thorough study of the entier doctrine will confirm this. That is not to say that there are not difficulties. There are, But the number of clear unequivical verses within this doctrine far out number the number of difficulties.
Perhaps fewer topics discussed among Christians provoke so much opinion than that of eternal salvation. The question, can you lose your salvation once you’re saved? Possibly another way of looking at this issue is to ask yourself, how do you live in grace? What do you do with the word that God left for you and how do you handle His promises? To take just a brief look at this issue we have to look at the word of God itself to understand what God has said about studying His word and seeking discernment. Next, explore the issue of “works” and how it applies or does not apply to our salvation. This is a brief look at these issues. There exists such a depth to Gods word when dealing in His promises that we could not possibly cover it all in this article.
Proverbs 2:1-6 teaches us how to study His word……”My son if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as silver and search for it as hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom.”
We are taught to accept His words. From there, we are to internalize His commands. They are to become apart of us. They are to be in us. Then we can ask for wisdom and turn towards it. But we are also taught to cry out. To seek. It is from this place that God can and will bless us with the discernment we are seeking. Proverbs 3: 5 further teaches us to not rely on what we think but to trust in our Lord for His understanding. “lean not on your own understanding……” It is this divine wisdom that so often contradicts the world’s ideas and perceptions.
2nd Timothy 3:15-17 Teaches us that all scripture is God breathed and that they are holy and can make us wise for salvation. 4: 3-4 teaches us that there is a time when people will turn away from sound doctrine and gather around them a great number of people to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
The world is for the most part in direct opposition to the divine.
At times we apply worldly thinking to a divine word. We struggle with forgiveness in our own hearts. We are still walking around with our past sinful selves often controlling our steps. Deeply perhaps, not always on the surface but nonetheless we often view the word through eyes of a sinner first and a child of God, saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ last.
John 12: 35-36 ……”The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. Put your trust in the light while you have it so that you may become sons of the light.”
We ARE to put our trust in Him. But we struggle with that and too often our belief that we are so unworthy of this gift of salvation is so potent that we take our trust back. Another issue comes into play here as well. Our humaness. Being human in our condition we try to live like Jesus Christ but our relationships with others are constantly full of conditions. We love people but….we will trust you until….I’ll forgive you if… perhaps we also at times apply these same human conditions to our understanding or lack of understanding of scripture. Further on in John we read John 12:44-46 “ When a man believes in me he does not believe in me only but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.”
Lets try to leave this condition for a moment and place our attention on His word alone. Jesus is our light. He is our lamp and we are to trust Him. So if we are to trust Him and His word then what does the word say about salvation.
Romans 3:24 “we are justified freely by His grace. Through the redemption that came through Jesus Christ”
Notice the words “freely” and “His Grace”. Not our works.
Salvation is an act of faith. In fact it is “the” act of faith.
Romans 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law” Note the words “apart from” If God wanted to mean “in addition to” He would have said that. But He said “apart from” .
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
part 2
Romans 4:14 speaks volumes on this. “For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless.”
Notice the word “promise” God is faithful to His word. Romans 4:4-5 teaches us that if there was any doubt that the only thing that saves a person is faith, this should erase all of it. “Now when a man works his wages are not credited to him as a gift but an obligation. However to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
When we try to add our part into the equation of salvation we rob God of the glory. If there was any part what so ever that we contributed to our salvation, even in our deeds then God would be obligated. We would steal from Grace and we never would have needed a savior.
Ephesians 1: 4-6 reads that He chose us and for His glory we are saved and that it is a gift given to us freely. “For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will- to the praise of His glorious grace which He has freely given us in the One he loves.”
If you read further to verse 8 you learn that God “lavished” His grace on us. He “lavished” ! Webster defines Lavished as abundance. more than enough, give extravagantly. This is what God did for us. He gave more than enough to address our sins yet at times some of us seek more. As if His gift was not enough, we often think that our deeds or works will benefit us in someway regarding our salvation or that we could, through what we do or don’t do, lose our salvation.
We know that Gods word is God breathed, without contradiction. It’s perfect and it’s what He left for us as the way, until His Son returns. Can we fully trust in all of our hearts that Gods gift, Jesus’ sacrifice was perfect by itself? We have briefly looked at what the Bible says about itself and the gift of grace that is Christ Jesus. Part 2 will address further, the issues of faith and works and the biblical doctrine around salvation. Not only is it important for each and everyone of to know our salvation is secure, it’s essential to remaining an effective Christian in today’s battles.
Confident in God’s Word Part 2
James Miller 11/19/05
To review from last month, we explored briefly the requirements to find discernment through the word of God. Read Proverbs 2:1-6, 3:5 In 2nd Timothy we are taught not only what the word is but a warning regarding turning away from truth and embracing myth.
The word, The Bible, Scripture, whatever you refer to it as, is life. It is not just “a book” Just as God breathed life into the world he did the same in His word. It is exactly life. What had been breathed into those pages is in direct conflict with worldly wisdom. We explored the ultimate gift we call salvation. Now we are going into Gods promises with regard to salvation and the Biblical doctrine surrounding it.
I think in part, we can agree that Hell is an eternal separation from God. C.S. Lewis stated “There is no doctrine that I would more willingly remove from Christianity than the doctrine of Hell. If it lay in my power. But it has the full support of scripture and especially of our Lord’s own words. It has always been held by the Christian church and it has the support of reason” Hell is real but Hell on earth is what is being described when we are taught that we can lose our salvation. For there would then be no second chance. No points to turn in to get another shot at the Kingdom. Could this really be real?
Or could it be that it goes against the very word of God?
We need to trust His word. We cannot lose our salvation. But is this just my opinion or sound doctrine from the word of God? Romans 6:10 teaches us that Christ died once and for all. He will not die twice for our sins. It would stand to reason that if we could lose our salvation that there would then be people walking around with lost souls. Dammed to an eternal death. Yet this goes against His word of promise. Nowhere in His words of salvation is there a “but”. 2 Corinthians 5:5 states it’s a guarantee, Galations 3:15 teaches us that no humanbeing can add to this covenant. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that it is not works and why. So we cannot boast of the gift. 1st Peter 1:4 states that this gift can never spoil, perish or fade. There are countless more. Countless. All promises. So why do we want to teach or act as if this was not true? I would suggest that there is an abundance of misunderstanding of scripture. Although there is certainly some and at times much room for interpretation, there are truths that lie in. We give entirely too much room for interpretation and not enough study in what is sound doctrine. Add to that differing levels of understanding of the depths of the word. Some may approach Mathew 10: 32 where Jesus teaches that denying Him will result in being condemned, as a means to “lose” salvation. This is not true. If you read Mathew 10 in its entirety you realize that Jesus is teaching about the coming judgement time. That there is judgement for those who deny Him. That in that time there will be those who have not made the choice to proclaim their savior Jesus Christ. In fact there will be most who do not as the word teaches us that few will find the narrow road. John 12:47 also speaks of rejecting Christ but this again is for the nonbeliever. Remember Romans 5:20. “But where sin increased, grace increased all the more”. Remember God Lavished us with His grace and it was more than enough. Our sins are covered. The gift was perfect and without exception and we have no part except to accept it. We cannot then lose it, give it away or have it taken away. To teach so is a dangerous theology. It goes against the very word of God. But it does fit nicely with our humaness and the way we live our lives. The way we too often handle grace in our lives with others.
John 10:27 teaches that we shall never perish, that NOTHING can snatch us from His hand. Jesus further drives this point home by restating it, that He and the Father are one and the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of His hand.
Romans 4:20 teaches us that Abraham did NOT waiver through unbelief regarding the promise of God. We too are not to waiver.
Once we are Christs we are saved and it is a promise that cannot be broken. A covenant. Not because of us or anything we do or DON’T DO. But because of Him. The blood of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul drove this point home. In his letter to the Romans he writes 8:38 “for I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angles nor demons, neither heights nor depths nor ANYTHING else in all of creation will be able to separate us from the love of God”. Think about this. I’d say Paul covered all of it. Basically “nothing” .Who do we love like this. Or should I ask, who do we exclude from this type of divine love?
The Apostle James, the “works” Apostle states that our Father does not change and He mentions our “promise”. James teaches a beautiful point of this gift of Grace. That if it is real and if it is alive it WILL have works. Remember that we are “born again” and as such there is a new heart in us. A heart of flesh. As such our hearts can wither. The world can beat us down. That is why we must have fellowship. That is why we are commanded to put on the armor of God. If we don’t we can be taken out of the fight. When that happens, as James teaches, our Faith without works is dead. That does not mean we have lost our salvation. It isn’t ours to lose but Christ’s now. We are however not helping the kingdom of God.
Some may say that we have a differing opinion. I pray that we don’t. We are taught to teach in accordance to sound doctrine. We have a responsibility to wrestle through these things. There are some things that are more than opinion. They move into the wisdom taught about in Proverbs 2. This is the discernment and wisdom I pray for everyday. For God to keep His word alive in me.
Perhaps this leads us to yet another more pertinent question. At what point are we saved? What is a saving faith? When are we “born again” Does our behavior match our words? Are we congruent in our actions with what we say we believe?
We are too far along in this battle to remain in heart and attitude as children of Adam. Lost in our sin, praying fifty times a day to be saved and not trusting in the word of God. We must move to that child of God and claim in boldness His word for all to hear. I want to leave you with one last thing. Go to the book of Hebrews and count the number of times “by faith” is used in chapter 10 and 11. . Hebrews 12:2 teaches us to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Our faith is a process and in the process of perfection. There will be a day when it will be perfect as God intended. Until then, fix your eyes on Jesus and live from there.
I am sure I will be attacked for this post but praise God for truth.
Romans 4:14 speaks volumes on this. “For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless.”
Notice the word “promise” God is faithful to His word. Romans 4:4-5 teaches us that if there was any doubt that the only thing that saves a person is faith, this should erase all of it. “Now when a man works his wages are not credited to him as a gift but an obligation. However to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
When we try to add our part into the equation of salvation we rob God of the glory. If there was any part what so ever that we contributed to our salvation, even in our deeds then God would be obligated. We would steal from Grace and we never would have needed a savior.
Ephesians 1: 4-6 reads that He chose us and for His glory we are saved and that it is a gift given to us freely. “For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will- to the praise of His glorious grace which He has freely given us in the One he loves.”
If you read further to verse 8 you learn that God “lavished” His grace on us. He “lavished” ! Webster defines Lavished as abundance. more than enough, give extravagantly. This is what God did for us. He gave more than enough to address our sins yet at times some of us seek more. As if His gift was not enough, we often think that our deeds or works will benefit us in someway regarding our salvation or that we could, through what we do or don’t do, lose our salvation.
We know that Gods word is God breathed, without contradiction. It’s perfect and it’s what He left for us as the way, until His Son returns. Can we fully trust in all of our hearts that Gods gift, Jesus’ sacrifice was perfect by itself? We have briefly looked at what the Bible says about itself and the gift of grace that is Christ Jesus. Part 2 will address further, the issues of faith and works and the biblical doctrine around salvation. Not only is it important for each and everyone of to know our salvation is secure, it’s essential to remaining an effective Christian in today’s battles.
Confident in God’s Word Part 2
James Miller 11/19/05
To review from last month, we explored briefly the requirements to find discernment through the word of God. Read Proverbs 2:1-6, 3:5 In 2nd Timothy we are taught not only what the word is but a warning regarding turning away from truth and embracing myth.
The word, The Bible, Scripture, whatever you refer to it as, is life. It is not just “a book” Just as God breathed life into the world he did the same in His word. It is exactly life. What had been breathed into those pages is in direct conflict with worldly wisdom. We explored the ultimate gift we call salvation. Now we are going into Gods promises with regard to salvation and the Biblical doctrine surrounding it.
I think in part, we can agree that Hell is an eternal separation from God. C.S. Lewis stated “There is no doctrine that I would more willingly remove from Christianity than the doctrine of Hell. If it lay in my power. But it has the full support of scripture and especially of our Lord’s own words. It has always been held by the Christian church and it has the support of reason” Hell is real but Hell on earth is what is being described when we are taught that we can lose our salvation. For there would then be no second chance. No points to turn in to get another shot at the Kingdom. Could this really be real?
Or could it be that it goes against the very word of God?
We need to trust His word. We cannot lose our salvation. But is this just my opinion or sound doctrine from the word of God? Romans 6:10 teaches us that Christ died once and for all. He will not die twice for our sins. It would stand to reason that if we could lose our salvation that there would then be people walking around with lost souls. Dammed to an eternal death. Yet this goes against His word of promise. Nowhere in His words of salvation is there a “but”. 2 Corinthians 5:5 states it’s a guarantee, Galations 3:15 teaches us that no humanbeing can add to this covenant. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that it is not works and why. So we cannot boast of the gift. 1st Peter 1:4 states that this gift can never spoil, perish or fade. There are countless more. Countless. All promises. So why do we want to teach or act as if this was not true? I would suggest that there is an abundance of misunderstanding of scripture. Although there is certainly some and at times much room for interpretation, there are truths that lie in. We give entirely too much room for interpretation and not enough study in what is sound doctrine. Add to that differing levels of understanding of the depths of the word. Some may approach Mathew 10: 32 where Jesus teaches that denying Him will result in being condemned, as a means to “lose” salvation. This is not true. If you read Mathew 10 in its entirety you realize that Jesus is teaching about the coming judgement time. That there is judgement for those who deny Him. That in that time there will be those who have not made the choice to proclaim their savior Jesus Christ. In fact there will be most who do not as the word teaches us that few will find the narrow road. John 12:47 also speaks of rejecting Christ but this again is for the nonbeliever. Remember Romans 5:20. “But where sin increased, grace increased all the more”. Remember God Lavished us with His grace and it was more than enough. Our sins are covered. The gift was perfect and without exception and we have no part except to accept it. We cannot then lose it, give it away or have it taken away. To teach so is a dangerous theology. It goes against the very word of God. But it does fit nicely with our humaness and the way we live our lives. The way we too often handle grace in our lives with others.
John 10:27 teaches that we shall never perish, that NOTHING can snatch us from His hand. Jesus further drives this point home by restating it, that He and the Father are one and the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of His hand.
Romans 4:20 teaches us that Abraham did NOT waiver through unbelief regarding the promise of God. We too are not to waiver.
Once we are Christs we are saved and it is a promise that cannot be broken. A covenant. Not because of us or anything we do or DON’T DO. But because of Him. The blood of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul drove this point home. In his letter to the Romans he writes 8:38 “for I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angles nor demons, neither heights nor depths nor ANYTHING else in all of creation will be able to separate us from the love of God”. Think about this. I’d say Paul covered all of it. Basically “nothing” .Who do we love like this. Or should I ask, who do we exclude from this type of divine love?
The Apostle James, the “works” Apostle states that our Father does not change and He mentions our “promise”. James teaches a beautiful point of this gift of Grace. That if it is real and if it is alive it WILL have works. Remember that we are “born again” and as such there is a new heart in us. A heart of flesh. As such our hearts can wither. The world can beat us down. That is why we must have fellowship. That is why we are commanded to put on the armor of God. If we don’t we can be taken out of the fight. When that happens, as James teaches, our Faith without works is dead. That does not mean we have lost our salvation. It isn’t ours to lose but Christ’s now. We are however not helping the kingdom of God.
Some may say that we have a differing opinion. I pray that we don’t. We are taught to teach in accordance to sound doctrine. We have a responsibility to wrestle through these things. There are some things that are more than opinion. They move into the wisdom taught about in Proverbs 2. This is the discernment and wisdom I pray for everyday. For God to keep His word alive in me.
Perhaps this leads us to yet another more pertinent question. At what point are we saved? What is a saving faith? When are we “born again” Does our behavior match our words? Are we congruent in our actions with what we say we believe?
We are too far along in this battle to remain in heart and attitude as children of Adam. Lost in our sin, praying fifty times a day to be saved and not trusting in the word of God. We must move to that child of God and claim in boldness His word for all to hear. I want to leave you with one last thing. Go to the book of Hebrews and count the number of times “by faith” is used in chapter 10 and 11. . Hebrews 12:2 teaches us to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Our faith is a process and in the process of perfection. There will be a day when it will be perfect as God intended. Until then, fix your eyes on Jesus and live from there.
I am sure I will be attacked for this post but praise God for truth.
M
MrS
Guest
Perhaps you should learn the difference between the works of the law (OT rituals and observances) and “the Law”, the 10 commandments.
And perhaps a better understanding of St Pauls emphasis on faith and obedience of faith might shed more light.
and of course, the often quoted and not often acknowledged reference to the only time in all of Scripture where “faith” and “alone” appear together… “…we are NOT saved by faith alone…”
M
MrS
Guest
I am heartened that you like our St Paul so much as to quote him often. I think he would cringe, however, at the quotes taken out of context. But he understands that doing so is necessary to support views that are anti-biblical, anti-St. Paul, and divisive at the very least.
and you are almost right…
Nothing, (outside of us) can separate us from the love of God.
But we can do that ourselves by simply rejecting Him.
If that is not true, then Free Will is non-existent
By the way, St Paul encouraged us to work out our salvation (an on-going effort) in fear and trembling. Even St. Paul asked others to pray than he not fall away.
.
and you are almost right…
Nothing, (outside of us) can separate us from the love of God.
But we can do that ourselves by simply rejecting Him.
If that is not true, then Free Will is non-existent
By the way, St Paul encouraged us to work out our salvation (an on-going effort) in fear and trembling. Even St. Paul asked others to pray than he not fall away.
.
M
MrS
Guest
Faith alone… not from God
Bible alone… not from God
Both are not, NOT Catholic teaching.
They are protestant innovations to “justify” leaving the one Church.
Bible alone… not from God
Both are not, NOT Catholic teaching.
They are protestant innovations to “justify” leaving the one Church.
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
I find it frustrating that there is so much disrespect on this site.
Mr S you wrote:"Perhaps you should learn the difference between the works of the law (OT rituals and observances) and “the Law”, the 10 commandments.
And perhaps a better understanding of St Pauls emphasis on faith and obedience of faith might shed more light.
and of course, the often quoted and not often acknowledged reference to the only time in all of Scripture where “faith” and “alone” appear together… “…we are NOT saved by faith alone…”
"hear O’Israel" The 10 commandments were never given to gentiles or the church. They were for Israel alone. “rightly divide the word of God” My study of Paul and his writings via the Holy Spirit has been in some depth to say the least. I understand it perfectly. Pauls confrontation of Peter was for the purpose of combining faith and works. Paul makes it emphatically clear that there can be no mingling of the two. If you rely on your works to justify you you are walking without faith. We are saved for works not by them. How can an honest study of Galations leave anyone who is saved (as you must be to discern the Word) with an impression of anything but a clear understanding that works have no place in the experience of salvation. Being saved is an event, being sanctified is a process. Works are a product of salvation. If you are not saved there is no good works in you. AND if you are saved it is a gift from God not to be taken away. Continue in your sin and you can be taken away but not your salvation. Another interesting point is that if Peter was the first Pope so to speak how could Paul have ever confronted him and why did Paul mention only Luke in his letter while in Rome and not Peter. AND why did Paul not address his letter to the Romans to Peter instead of the church there.
Mr S - a happy struggling Apologist who believes that everything is Grace
Mr S you wrote:"Perhaps you should learn the difference between the works of the law (OT rituals and observances) and “the Law”, the 10 commandments.
And perhaps a better understanding of St Pauls emphasis on faith and obedience of faith might shed more light.
and of course, the often quoted and not often acknowledged reference to the only time in all of Scripture where “faith” and “alone” appear together… “…we are NOT saved by faith alone…”
"hear O’Israel" The 10 commandments were never given to gentiles or the church. They were for Israel alone. “rightly divide the word of God” My study of Paul and his writings via the Holy Spirit has been in some depth to say the least. I understand it perfectly. Pauls confrontation of Peter was for the purpose of combining faith and works. Paul makes it emphatically clear that there can be no mingling of the two. If you rely on your works to justify you you are walking without faith. We are saved for works not by them. How can an honest study of Galations leave anyone who is saved (as you must be to discern the Word) with an impression of anything but a clear understanding that works have no place in the experience of salvation. Being saved is an event, being sanctified is a process. Works are a product of salvation. If you are not saved there is no good works in you. AND if you are saved it is a gift from God not to be taken away. Continue in your sin and you can be taken away but not your salvation. Another interesting point is that if Peter was the first Pope so to speak how could Paul have ever confronted him and why did Paul mention only Luke in his letter while in Rome and not Peter. AND why did Paul not address his letter to the Romans to Peter instead of the church there.
Mr S - a happy struggling Apologist who believes that everything is Grace
H
Hesychios
Guest
This thread has a lot of entertainment value.
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
RETRACTION: I cannot say that I understand it perfectly. I wish. Sorry about that!
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
I like all you have said in your last post. but done right it can be “iron sharpening iron”
C
celticcrusader
Guest
BACKFRMTHEBRINK: you are a great cut & paste artist, But please post your sources so that if we want to look at them we do not waste a lot of time trying to find the source. thank you
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
If only everyone possessed your wisdom, Gottle :bowdown2:
B
backfrmthebrink
Guest
CC first you should really check your name a little closer. Nothing to be proud of there. Next you seem to imply that I have tried to mislead you. Not the case. Take it for what it is and express your thoughts on it. It is credible and accurate dispite your little diggs. BTW that was my one and only cut and paste and you are now implying that my posts are all that. At least that is the discounting message. Are you so threatened that the cath church you are such a crusader for is wrong.
C
celticcrusader
Guest
backfrmthebrink;3911271 Next you seem to imply that I have tried to mislead you. Not the case. Take it for what it is and express your thoughts on it. It is credible and accurate dispite your little diggs. BTW that was my one and only cut and paste and you are now implying that my posts are all that. [/QUOTE said:
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backfrmthebrink
Guest
You are indeed manipulative. Communication is key in our words we use. Your responses and even this one is loaded with bombs for others to trip over. Do you do this to others. First I am not thin skinned. Well maybe I am but thats another story. I do pay attention to words. I do not think people pick on me in all my posts and nor did I quit as in cut and run, my other posts. Just knowing when I should stop is more about what God has worked on in me than anything else. If I get overly defensive It will be my pride writing and then nolonger about God. My pride has been a deamon for me.
As for the source of the article someone else mentioned it. To be honest I forgot. But I will try to find it. I have done some work with cults for a time and while researching other things I stumbled onto it and made a copy for myself. I just liked it and was curious as to what the reaction woulds be from others at this site.
As for the source of the article someone else mentioned it. To be honest I forgot. But I will try to find it. I have done some work with cults for a time and while researching other things I stumbled onto it and made a copy for myself. I just liked it and was curious as to what the reaction woulds be from others at this site.
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celticcrusader
Guest
I see you did research on cults .In your opinion is the Catholic Church a cult and why?
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MrS
Guest
Most reactions will be blunt and loaded with truth. But I trust that is what you want… the truth.
Probably the best reference (fair and balanced ) on your theory is
amazon.com/Not-Faith-Alone-Biblical-Justification/dp/1579180086
I encourage you to investigate.
Or
At the very least, use the seach feature and you will find lots of threads on the subject… many with much better arguments than you have given.
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celticcrusader
Guest
I am sorry every body my last post was off topic, please disregard.
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