Protestantism Today

[JLF2011]

My quote was from an earlier post in this thread.

I guess this discussion surprised me after our experiences.

When I was young a Protestant child wouldn’t have been comfortable in a Catholic school. I thought things had changed significantly when my son was welcomed, embraced, and evolved as a Christian despite the fact that he wasn’t Catholic.

That left the door wide open to Catholicism in a positive way. The judgmental approach slams it shut.

 

[joe370]

ProdigalAnglicn you said:

What about Honorius I, who taught the heresy of Monothelitism?

You researched this yourself and based on that research you still truly believe that Honorius I taught and propagated the heresy of Monothelitism, and made it binding on the Church universal by officially defining Monothelitism as infallible dogma?

Or, for that matter, what about St. Peter teaching the heresy of the Judaizers before being corrected by St. Paul (“But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong”, Galatians 2:11, NIV). These are just two examples of a Bishop of Rome teaching erroneous doctrine.

I don’t see Peter erroneously teaching anything in Galatians. What are you talking about? Even if he was, and he’s not, he certainly did not pronounce anything or make it binding on the church universal as he did in Acts 15. I see a scared leader behaving hypocritically by eating with the gentiles and then, out of fear, drawing away from the gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

I don’t understand why protestants think the CC teaches that Peter, or any of his successors, are some how impervious to the fallen human condition. Silly…The infallibility of the Petrine office is all about the guidance of God, not the sinful man that holds the office, temporarily.

 

[BrianGular]

Roy5’s comments are a testament to relativism, which is the inevitable legacy of Protestantism. It can’t claim to be “true” in any objective sense.

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant

JD, I don’t see how you can make such a claim. If one looks carefully at the teaching of the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) we see that they agree with the Roman church in many fundamental ways. For example, all would hold to the authority of scripture. All would hold to the importance of tradition. All would hold to the centrality of death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All would reject relativism. The big difference (and it is a very big one) is over the authority of the church. Granted, the ecclesiastical difference leads to many other disagreements, but it’s simply not true that Protestantism = relativism = falsehood. Such a claim calls into question the veracity of the Roman church as well.

 

[CopticChristian]

JD, I don’t see how you can make such a claim. If one looks carefully at the teaching of the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) we see that they agree with the Roman church in many fundamental ways. For example, all would hold to the authority of scripture. All would hold to the importance of tradition. All would hold to the centrality of death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All would reject relativism. The big difference (and it is a very big one) is over the authority of the church. Granted, the ecclesiastical difference leads to many other disagreements, but it’s simply not true that Protestantism = relativism = falsehood. Such a claim calls into question the veracity of the Roman church as well./QUOTE]

I have something simpler. There is no need for careful study of these guys. They are Catholic priests and a Catholic Lawyer. They took the Catholic Faith and then denied

Authority of the Church
Invented Extrinsic Justification
Invented Sola Scriptura
Invented Sola Fide

Ok then Protestanism and Catholicism are false…there are no truths.

Wel the Protestanis and Catholicism are both entirely true…well then there are two truths

How about there is one truth and within Protestant thought you find many of the truths found from the original truth and within Protestanism there are untruths.

So with the bible alone…all truths would come forth…well…

From the beginning, though Luther and Zwingli were at one in their opposition to Rome, they were unable to agree upon a common religious platform.
The Sacramentarian controversy, confined at first to Luther and Carlstadt, grew more embittered after Zwingli had espoused openly the side of the latter. Several German princes having embraced the views of Zwingli, it was felt necessary to preserve some kind of unity amongst the Reformers, especially in view of the threatening attitude assumed by Charles V. A conference was called at Marburg (1529), at which Luther, Melanchthon, Osiander, and Agricola agreed to meet Zwingli, Oecolampadius, Butzer, and the other Swiss leaders. The conference failed to arrive at a satisfactory agreement, but in 1536 the Concord of Wittenberg was concluded, whereby it was hoped that peace might be restored by the adoption of a very ambiguous formula. Luther, however, refused to allow himself to be bound by the agreement, and the controversy went on as violently as before.

In the meantime Calvin had undertaken to preach doctrines on the Eucharist entirely different from those put forward by either Zwingli or Luther, with the result that Zurich found itself in conflict with Geneva as it had found itself previously in conflict with Wittenberg. To restore some semblance of unity among the Swiss Reformers Bullinger, the recognized head of the Zurich party, entered into communication with Calvin, and a doctrinal agreement was arrived at known as the Consensus Tigurinus (The Zurich Concord) in 1549. Later on this was confirmed by the Confessio Helvetica (1564).

There then followed controversy like antinomism, Osandrists, Adiophrists, persecution of the Anabaptist for not baptizing babies…Sola Scriptura …all truth…Socianism, Herrnhuters, Pietists, Swedenborians, and then Lutheranism, Calvinism, Armenianism/Methodism, Anglicanism, and more…

and so with the authority of Scripture we have …

 

[joe370]

JD, I don’t see how you can make such a claim. If one looks carefully at the teaching of the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) we see that they agree with the Roman church in many fundamental ways. For example, all would hold to the authority of scripture. All would hold to the importance of tradition. All would hold to the centrality of death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All would reject relativism. The big difference (and it is a very big one) is over the authority of the church. Granted, the ecclesiastical difference leads to many other disagreements, but it’s simply not true that Protestantism = relativism = falsehood. Such a claim calls into question the veracity of the Roman church as well.

I like Roy; he’s good guy and I enjoy reading his posts and trying to see things from his unique perspective, but if you give his posts a read you might see why Copt said what he said, and again, I’m not trying to impugn the beliefs of Roy. I would never do that!!! He has every right to believe what he believes. I always make it a point to remember, when dialoging, that we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are all in this together even if we don’t always share the same beliefs.

 

[CompSciGuy]

So, Jim, are you saying that the only time Catholics kneel is in the presence of His body and blood? You mean you don’t kneel to pray at home? You wouldn’t find it appropriate to kneel in the confessional? (I honestly don’t know if Catholics kneel for confession or not, though I do.) Is it your belief that Christ is only present in the Eucharist?

You’re Lutheran, and you go to confession? How does that work? I have never heard of a Lutheran Church that practiced confession to a clergyman, and I happily attended an LCMS church for several months before becoming Catholic. Do some parishes do this?

And yes Catholics typically do kneel in confession, if they go behind the veil/screen, although Catholics who confess face to face typically sit in a chair in front of the priest.

 

[CompSciGuy]

** 4. It comes as no surprise that when one challenges the Church’s policy on this or that, one is called relativistic, egotistic, etc.** I hope I don’t fit either category. Yes, perhaps I am influenced by the democratic climate in the USA which can endow us with a spirit of individual freedom. I treasure that freedom.For those who accept whatever the Church teaches, fine. I was reading a study recently that one of the major reasons young people have left the Church in large numbers is because they feel that their natural curiosity is stifled and they are hesitant to automatically rubber-stamp whatever the church teaches.

** God bless everybody!.**

Noone is here to challenge your individual freedom to believe whatever you want. However, we are here to challenge whether what you believe is true. The truth is not subject to your opinions, feelings, wants, or to the Constitution. That’s what we’re about.

 

[CompSciGuy]

“It is a sadness and a disgrace to Christianity,” when referring to Protestantism is probably where I began to wonder.

My son attended Catholic school as a Protestant through the end of middle school, and I didn’t encounter this attitude there. It was an incredibly inclusive place.

My daughter attended through middle school what was then the only ecumenical Sacred Heart School in the US. I can’t imagine Catholics we knew there considering Protestants non-Christians.

Perhaps I’m misreading posters on this thread. I hope so.

I was a little put off by that post as well. I do have a lot of respect for many conservative Protestant groups out there. Here is what the Church really teaches about Protestantism: those who are validly baptized are a part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. There is only one Church, and all baptized are members, either visibly through full communion with the Catholic Church, or invisibly through partial communion. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Christian truth. Those in Protestant denominations are considered “separated brethren” because they are not in full communion with the church. Vatican II recognizes the presence and working of the Holy Spirit among these denominations and says these groups can be a means of salvation for their respective members.

I think it is unfair to call Protestantism a “disgrace” to Christianity, but I also strongly encourage Protestants to look into Catholicism because it is important for the Church to be one, united in Christ, and it is important to have the sacraments. The sacraments are the ultimate way to have relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[JLF2011]

Thanks for your clarification. It’s more along the lines of what I thought the relationship between C/P was today.

Honestly, I’m here investigating Catholicism from the perspective of a lifelong Christian whose father left the Catholic Church to marry a Protestant more than half a century ago. Dad’s entire side of the family is Catholic, and Mom’s is Protestant. They as a couple are among the best, most sincere Christians I’ve known. We always joke they set too high a standard for the rest of us to meet .

My husband was raised Catholic, and our son found his way to the Catholic school my husband attended when son was in dire need of a safe and Christian place in elementary school. I was so impressed with the way my son and we as a family were treated by Catholics there and in the ecumenical school our daughter attended that I’m looking seriously at the CC for myself.

Way back when my father was young, his father (European immigrant and very devout Catholic) questioned his priest about things like birth control when nobody did. He died before my parents married, but the family accepted my mother as the sincere Chrisitian she was. I think they would have been delighted to see the changes in the Church that would have allowed a priest to participate in their wedding.

Reading some of the harsher posts makes me think there are still a lot of Catholics who don’t understand that constant justification of one’s faith with condemnation of all others (especially other Christians!) really doesn’t work as an outreach plan. If you’re secure in what you believe to be true, that shouldn’t be necessary.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

JD, I don’t see how you can make such a claim. If one looks carefully at the teaching of the Reformers (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.) we see that they agree with the Roman church in many fundamental ways. For example, all would hold to the authority of scripture. All would hold to the importance of tradition. All would hold to the centrality of death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All would reject relativism. The big difference (and it is a very big one) is over the authority of the church. Granted, the ecclesiastical difference leads to many other disagreements, but it’s simply not true that Protestantism = relativism = falsehood. Such a claim calls into question the veracity of the Roman church as well.

Yes, the Deformers called into question the veracity of the Roman Church founded by Christ, substituted themselves as the authority in matters of faith and morals, and triggered an avalanche of thousands of conflicting and competing denominations, each claiming itself to be the “true” authority by virtue of knowing the “true” interpretation of the same, incomplete, 66-book of Scriptures cut by Martin Luther.

The state of Christianity in the 16th century – thanks to the Deformers – was such that Christopher Rasperger wrote a book documenting some 200 different interpretations that developed in the 60 years between 1517 and 1577 of Christ’s four words: “This is my body.” Ducentae Verborum, ‘Hoc Est Corpus Meum’ Interpretationes (Ingolstadt, 1577).

Now there are thousands of Protestant “truths” to choose from, taught by the many thousands of denominations in the world. Oy veh!

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[CopticChristian]

I was a little put off by that post as well. I do have a lot of respect for many conservative Protestant groups out there. Here is what the Church really teaches about Protestantism: those who are validly baptized are a part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. There is only one Church, and all baptized are members, either visibly through full communion with the Catholic Church, or invisibly through partial communion. The Catholic Church has the fullness of Christian truth. Those in Protestant denominations are considered “separated brethren” because they are not in full communion with the church. Vatican II recognizes the presence and working of the Holy Spirit among these denominations and says these groups can be a means of salvation for their respective members.

I think it is unfair to call Protestantism a “disgrace” to Christianity, but I also strongly encourage Protestants to look into Catholicism because it is important for the Church to be one, united in Christ, and it is important to have the sacraments. The sacraments are the ultimate way to have relationship with Jesus Christ.

Protestanism has to be framed as of today or yesterday.

Protestanism at its inception is heresy. Those that are born of these heretics through no fault of their own inherit and believe these things to be true.

There are priests today that lead the flock astray and they harm many. They disgrace the Faith. For every child molested their has been harm done. This is sin on account of a Priest a disgrace. For every parishoner led astray by Zwingli, Knox, etc this is a disgrace, sin on account of priests and a lawyer…causing harm to the many.

Those that have learned what these former Catholic priests are no different as they have inherited the sin of their “reforming sinful fathers”…

Protestants of today are not a disgrace…united in some mysterious way…searching…for those that find their way back welcome…some still oppose and accept what those that started this disgrace taught…in some cases individuals may show signs of disgrace…however since it is not for me to judge them…the disgrace is only that which they bring on themselves…in the context of this discussion…their is no disgrace in asking questions and looking to fill the cup of grace given through baptism, reading the word, prayer and the mysterious unity.

 

[CopticChristian]

I like Roy; he’s good guy and I enjoy reading his posts and trying to see things from his unique perspective, but if you give his posts a read you might see why Copt said what he said, and again, I’m not trying to impugn the beliefs of Roy. I would never do that!!! He has every right to believe what he believes. I always make it a point to remember, when dialoging, that we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are all in this together even if we don’t always share the same beliefs.

I too like Roy. He reminds me of my youth when I wanted to have my cake and eat it too. I wanted to dictate how my Faith would be part of my life. The liberal is acceptance of all and I believe for me it was wanting not to be so set in what I believed as to cause controversy…Christianity causes controversy…as evidence of these postings and all the dialogue here and elsewhere…in the world.

 

[AmateurPianist]

My quote was from an earlier post in this thread.

I guess this discussion surprised me after our experiences.

When I was young a Protestant child wouldn’t have been comfortable in a Catholic school. I thought things had changed significantly when my son was welcomed, embraced, and evolved as a Christian despite the fact that he wasn’t Catholic.

That left the door wide open to Catholicism in a positive way. The judgmental approach slams it shut.

I hear ya.

I have been told my church is a harlot and I am a heretic here. Amongst other nice comments.

But to be fair I think the Catholicism you experience in real life is closer to the real thing than what you get here. Something about the internet.

And there are wonderful people here to. You just have to ignore the negative.

 

[JonNC]

You’re Lutheran, and you go to confession? How does that work? I have never heard of a Lutheran Church that practiced confession to a clergyman, and I happily attended an LCMS church for several months before becoming Catholic. Do some parishes do this?

And yes Catholics typically do kneel in confession, if they go behind the veil/screen, although Catholics who confess face to face typically sit in a chair in front of the priest.

The Augsburg Confession says about confession:

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.

If you attended a Lutheran service, you first noticed that every divine service starts with the invocation, followed by an order of public confession and absolution by the pastor.
In addition, every Lutheran has available the order of private confession, which I have availed myself to. Normally, it is based on the Small Catechism:

V. Confession

How Christians should be taught to confess.

What is Confession?*

Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord’s Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?

Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.

Pray, Propose to Me a Brief Form of Confession.

Answer.

You should speak to the confessor thus: Reverend and dear sir, I beseech you to hear my confession, and to pronounce forgiveness to me for God’s sake.

Proceed!

I, a poor sinner, confess myself before God guilty of all sins; especially I confess before you that I am a man-servant, a maidservant, etc. But, alas, I serve my master unfaithfully; for in this and in that I have not done what they commanded me; I have provoked them, and caused them to curse, have been negligent [in many things] and permitted damage to be done; have also been immodest in words and deeds, have quarreled with my equals, have grumbled and sworn at my mistress, etc. For all this I am sorry, and pray for grace; I want to do better.

A master or mistress may say thus:

In particular I confess before you that I have not faithfully trained my children, domestics, and wife [family] for God’s glory. I have cursed, set a bad example by rude words and deeds, have done my neighbor harm and spoken evil of him, have overcharged and given false ware and short measure.

And whatever else he has done against God’s command and his station, etc.

But if any one does not find himself burdened with such or greater sins, he should not trouble himself or search for or invent other sins, and thereby make confession a torture, but mention one or two that he knows. Thus: In particular I confess that I once cursed; again, I once used improper words, I have once neglected this or that, etc. Let this suffice.

But if you know of none at all (which, however is scarcely possible), then mention none in particular, but receive the forgiveness upon your general confession which you make before God to the confessor.

Then shall the confessor say:

God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.

Furthermore:

Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God’s forgiveness?

Answer.

Yes, dear sir.

Then let him say:

As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.

But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture. This is to be merely a general form of confession for the unlearned.

Jon

 

[Contarini]

I’m surprised at the level of antipathy toward Protestants. I’ve begun investigating Catholicism, but this makes me pause.

Sometimes I have used this forum to talk myself out of becoming Catholic!

But in fact there are a lot of very wise and charitable Catholics here. It’s a huge forum. Also, bear in mind that some of the folks here live in heavily fundamentalist areas such as the southern U.S. and tend to see Protestants in a jaundiced light based on their experiences. (As someone who sprayed a statue of the Virgin Mary with a water hose at the age of 7 as an act of deliberate iconoclasm–or rather iconobaptism, I suppose!–I understand with shame why they feel that way.)

If you don’t become Catholic, let it be for some more solid reason than because there are some heated posts on an Internet forum!

I was more put off Catholicism, frankly, when I went to talk to one priest and one of the first things he said was, “Luther was right”! I thought–well, then, why am I here?

Edwin

 

[joe370]

Sometimes I have used this forum to talk myself out of becoming Catholic!

But in fact there are a lot of very wise and charitable Catholics here. It’s a huge forum. Also, bear in mind that some of the folks here live in heavily fundamentalist areas such as the southern U.S. and tend to see Protestants in a jaundiced light based on their experiences. (As someone who sprayed a statue of the Virgin Mary with a water hose at the age of 7 as an act of deliberate iconoclasm–or rather iconobaptism, I suppose!–I understand with shame why they feel that way.)

If you don’t become Catholic, let it be for some more solid reason than because there are some heated posts on an Internet forum!

 

[CopticChristian]

Sometimes I have used this forum to talk myself out of becoming Catholic!

But in fact there are a lot of very wise and charitable Catholics here. It’s a huge forum. Also, bear in mind that some of the folks here live in heavily fundamentalist areas such as the southern U.S. and tend to see Protestants in a jaundiced light based on their experiences. (As someone who sprayed a statue of the Virgin Mary with a water hose at the age of 7 as an act of deliberate iconoclasm–or rather iconobaptism, I suppose!–I understand with shame why they feel that way.)

If you don’t become Catholic, let it be for some more solid reason than because there are some heated posts on an Internet forum!

I was more put off Catholicism, frankly, when I went to talk to one priest and one of the first things he said was, “Luther was right”! I thought–well, then, why am I here?

Edwin

Have you read Louis Bouyer, Spirit and forms of Protestanism? I have read something to the effect that in order for the Reformation to become a reality it has to become Catholic or perhaps it was worded The Catholic Church is necessary for the realities of the reformation…can’t recall…just a thought.

 

[waxwing]

There is so much to comment on when it comes to Protestantism. I will tackle just one aspect.

** Coming from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage myself, I always have been interested in ecumenism, getting the two traditions together**, not necessarily as one church but one in spirit, advocating the same Christ and Christian faith. It has never troubled me all that much that there are differences, since I’m inclined to think that all humans ‘see through a glass darkly…’ I would suggest that none of us understand this mammoth, miraculous, magnificent and mysterious universe. With maybe a thousand or a million solar systems, how could we? I am content to go along with an old gospel hymn which begins: “Farther along we’ll know all about it, farther along we’ll understand why…”

 **Sadly - well, in my view - the form of Protestantism that is most attractive is losing ground**. That is mainline Protestantism: Methodism, Episcopalianism, the UCC, Presbyterianism, etc. I admire the freedom these groups allow to think and let think, considerable freedom to believe or not believe, yet with a strong faith in God and a desire to imitate Christ in daily life. Apparently, millions either reject religion altogether or they are attracted to evangelical groups that have plenty of charisma but are inclined to be fundamentalist, not open to varying points of view.

** I worry, too, that Catholicism may be more and more authoritative since the time of John XXIII, my favorite Pope.** John Paul II and Benedict XVI certainly are capable and devout men, but I wonder if they are throw-backs to earlier times. This is being cheered by some, but in the long haul will injure the church, certainly in Europe and North America, where reasonable religion is important to millions of the faithful. I have read the Church Fathers and find them brilliant for their era but full of assumptions based on a time when telescopes were primitive and microscopes were yet to be invented. So, they often taught the three-tier view of the universe with no knowledge of the vastness of space and such false concepts as demons or God’s punishment being the main causes of disease.

** One particular event troubled me**: when Hans Kung was no longer permitted by the Church to teach in Catholic universities. He was one of my favorite theologians. he wanted to make Catholicism broader and less restrictive when it came to matters of doctrine. He elevated respect for the individual and his/her mental ability to think, to weigh, to investigate, to ponder. I personally need the right to do this.

  **So, time will tell. If Catholicism can 'loosen up' **and if church members are permitted to have serious conversations about such matters as marriage of priests, ordaining women as deacons, allowing 'artifical' birth control, etc., it may thrive. Otherwise, I think it will continue to lose ground. The young people want to go forward, not backward. Even the little changes we will have at Mass soon strike me as a move backwards, More like the Latin, the priest here assured the faithful? When will the hierarchy wake up?

  **But God bless all people of faith**, whatever their creed, color, culture or country. May religion become a bridge rather than a barrier.

Gotta agree with your second point, despite its greying, its inclination to be swayed by liberal tides (speaking as a conservative - not in the political sense though) Although on some social issues I do side with evangelicals, I am more dismayed by their inclination to overall faddism, their strong and open ties to certain political parties, their eagerness to “condemn” other Protestant denominations not to mention the RCC, and what I see as the connection between the “accumulation of stuff” as a side benefit of joining their “brand” of Christianity. Am I generalizing? Yes, but generally speaking that’s how I see it.

 

[pablope]

Sometimes I have used this forum to talk myself out of becoming Catholic!

But in fact there are a lot of very wise and charitable Catholics here. It’s a huge forum. Also, bear in mind that some of the folks here live in heavily fundamentalist areas such as the southern U.S. and tend to see Protestants in a jaundiced light based on their experiences. (As someone who sprayed a statue of the Virgin Mary with a water hose at the age of 7 as an act of deliberate iconoclasm–or rather iconobaptism, I suppose!–I understand with shame why they feel that way.)

Edwin

Just as well, you will find wise and charitable non-Cs…like Contarini with about 12,000 posts…JonNC with about 8000 posts.

(I apologize if I fail to mention some other non-Cs…)

 

[Contarini]

Have you read Louis Bouyer, Spirit and forms of Protestanism? I have read something to the effect that in order for the Reformation to become a reality it has to become Catholic or perhaps it was worded The Catholic Church is necessary for the realities of the reformation…can’t recall…just a thought.

I have read it (indeed, it had a huge influence on me), and I agree in principle. However, it’s hard to see how this is actually going to happen. Probably my basic problem is a lack of faith and courage, but my problem with Catholicism for years has essentially been that the Church as described by Fr. Bouyer (not just in that book but in his works generally, such as his work on ecclesiology aptly titled *The Church of God) *seems to be an ideal rather than an empirical reality.