Protestantizing heresies of Vatican II

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Exactly! Because the good NO Masses that I’ve attended (none at my parish unfortunately) are quite beautiful and the parishes are healthy. Traditional practices (such as praying the rosary, novenas, litanies, adoration etc.) are thriving.

I’m hopeful for the MP, because I think that the TLM should be allowed to be celebrated by any willing priest with an interested congregation. But I don’t think it will become the normative rite of the Church again, and as someone who has a lot of experience with the TLM I just don’t think that it will appeal to the vast majority of Catholics (as opposed to a properly celebrated NO). I think that more energy should go to fixing the abuses in the NO.
I’m hopeful that the TLM’s being more freely offered will have the effect of a tightening up on the rubrics of the NO, a more serious view of the celebration of the Mass. I think it will benefit the Church as a whole. BUT…some of the near heresies that are articulated by SOME of the TLM’s supporters are going to have to be addressed. I do understand why even some of the good bishops might be reluctant to encourage it (you only have to read some “traditionalist” postings to see their point), though by and large, if they had allowed the TLM per the Holy Father’s request, it wouldn’t have gone this far.
 
No it doesn’t…I’m shocked!!
And I didn’t take it off just any website. Pope Paul VI’s Progressio Populorum is on the Vatican website.

I merely bring this to the attention of those that think we should obey the Pope in everything he says.

Not only that but I’m afraid Pope Paul VI lost a lot of credibility with a lot of conservatives even before he issued the New Mass. Humanae Vitae was just damage control in my opinion.
 
What do you mean by deficient? Are you saying that it cannot confect the Sacrifice?

It still retains the essentials of the Sacrifice, it still includes the Blessed Virgin Mary, and it still involves contrition.
I only said deficient…not invalid. Look up the word deficient.
 
I only said deficient…not invalid. Look up the word deficient.
It isn’t deficient. It purports to do what the Church says it does. The Council of Trent anathematized ANYONE (and that still applies to today) who stated that the Church could propose a ritural or liturgy that could lead the people to impiety. To hold such a view is HERESY. It may not be your aesthetic cup of tea, but to say it is deficient is HERESY.
 
And I didn’t take it off just any website. Pope Paul VI’s Progressio Populorum is on the Vatican website.

I merely bring this to the attention of those that think we should obey the Pope in everything he says.

Not only that but I’m afraid Pope Paul VI lost a lot of credibility with a lot of conservatives even before he issued the New Mass. Humanae Vitae was just damage control in my opinion.
There is absolutely nothing in Progressio Populorum that contradicts Church teaching.
 
It isn’t deficient. It purports to do what the Church says it does. The Council of Trent anathematized ANYONE (and that still applies to today) who stated that the Church could propose a ritural or liturgy that could lead the people to impiety. To hold such a view is HERESY. It may not be your aesthetic cup of tea, but to say it is deficient is HERESY.
Do you intrepret the Mass as Calvary or a Meal?
 
“CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.”

On what exactly is heresy based these days? I don’t see the word ‘impiety’ or any other qualifications in this canon. A NOVUS ordo to me (and these were Paul VI’s words) is NEW order, in clear violation of Trent. Am I missing something? [Edited by Moderator]
 
“CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.”

On what exactly is heresy based these days? I don’t see the word ‘impiety’ or any other qualifications in this canon. A NOVUS ordo to me (and these were Paul VI’s words) is NEW order, in clear violation of Trent. Am I missing something? [Edited by Moderator]
Yes, you are missing something, that I’ve explained to you before (if you don’t want to read my responses, you are more than welcome to put me on ignore, but I’ve a right to respond to any post) and that others have explained as well: The above does NOT refer to the promulgation of a rite or a liturgy. My sixteen year old nephew preping for confirmation could tell you that this means that a priest may not leave out or add anything unapproved to the celebration of a Mass. It does NOT mean that the Church, in the exercise of her legitimate authority, cannot alter the Mass or any other rite.

Also, this ISN’T the canon of Trent that I’m talking about.
 
“CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.”

On what exactly is heresy based these days? I don’t see the word ‘impiety’ or any other qualifications in this canon. A NOVUS ordo to me (and these were Paul VI’s words) is NEW order, in clear violation of Trent. Am I missing something? [Edited by Moderator]
I’m not sure how you are understanding the NO - clearly a received and approved rite of the Catholic Church - to be a violation of Trent.

It’s true that the rite can and has been subject to abuse, but so was the TLM. In fact, abuse of the TLM continues even in some areas to this day, so it’s not just something confined to the NO.
 
I’m talking about Canon 7, Chapter 9, of the 22cne Session:

CANON VII.–If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema.
 
There is absolutely nothing in Progressio Populorum that contradicts Church teaching.
I think it is critcizing those who want children and then telling them this has to be done through artificial means and then criticizng limiting the number of children when done for by artifical birth control methods.

Either way this is about eliminating children so yes it does contradict Church teaching.
 
Yes, you are missing something, that I’ve explained to you before (if you don’t want to read my responses, you are more than welcome to put me on ignore, but I’ve a right to respond to any post) and that others have explained as well: The above does NOT refer to the promulgation of a rite or a liturgy. My sixteen year old nephew preping for confirmation could tell you that this means that a priest may not leave out or add anything unapproved to the celebration of a Mass. It does NOT mean that the Church, in the exercise of her legitimate authority, cannot alter the Mass or any other rite.

Also, this ISN’T the canon of Trent that I’m talking about.
Novus Ordo Mass is New Order Mass, one and the same thing. It was more than just altering the Mass. These are two different Masses. They are not the same Mass.
 
I’m not sure how you are understanding the NO - clearly a received and approved rite of the Catholic Church - to be a violation of Trent.

It’s true that the rite can and has been subject to abuse, but so was the TLM. In fact, abuse of the TLM continues even in some areas to this day, so it’s not just something confined to the NO.
Where is the abuse of the TLM is SOME areas today?
 
Novus Ordo Mass is New Order Mass, one and the same thing. It was more than just altering the Mass. These are two different Masses. They are not the same Mass.
But, as I’ve told you, they confect the Same Sacrifice. To deny that is heresy.
 
I think it is critcizing those who want children and then telling them this has to be done through artificial means and then criticizng limiting the number of children when done for by artifical birth control methods.

Either way this is about eliminating children so yes it does contradict Church teaching.
Where does it say that people can contracept through artificial means?!?!?!
 
I would suggest go back and read it.

It is about eliminating children and you can’t deny that.
No, it isn’t about eliminating children. The only permissible way in which a couple may regulate child bearing is through Natural Family Planning.

Look, the sedevacantists are heretical, but at least they have the integrity to say what they mean. If you believe that the Pope taught error to the whole of the Church, then Christ has failed in His Promise.
 
I think it is critcizing those who want children and then** telling them** this has to be done through artificial means and then criticizng limiting the number of children when done for by artifical birth control methods.

Either way this is about eliminating children so yes it does contradict Church teaching.
No, it absolutely does not say that. Here is the relevant section that I’m assuming you are talking about:
Population Growth*
  1. There is no denying that the accelerated rate of population growth brings many added difficulties to the problems of development where the size of the population grows more rapidly than the quantity of available resources to such a degree that things seem to have reached an impasse**. In such circumstances people are inclined to apply drastic remedies to reduce the birth rate***.
Remember, prior to writing this, the Pope had just recently visited the countries of India, Africa, Palestine and Latin America. I’ve been to India myself (in the late 1970’s), where the density of the population is staggering. Drastic measures to reduce birth rate include artifical birth control, sterilization, abortion and even infanticide – all things that occur even to this day in these countries.
There is no doubt that public authorities can intervene in this matter, within the bounds of their competence. They can instruct citizens on this subject and adopt appropriate measures, so long as these are in conformity with the dictates of the moral law and the rightful freedom of married couples is preserved completely intact. When the inalienable right of marriage and of procreation is taken away, so is human dignity.
The pope is stating that any measure taken by the state must be moral and respect the freedom of the married couple. Therefore, forced sterilization or abortion (such as occurs today in China) is absolutely wrong. State sponsored instruction on NFP would be fine, as long as it left the choice up to the married couple.
Finally**, it is for parents** to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God’s law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)
A couple absolutely has the right to choose to limit or space their children, if done in accordance with Church teaching. In 1930 Pope Pius XI wrote in Casti Connubii: “Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner, although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth.”

In his Address to the Midwives in 1952, Pius XII also reiterates that “Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social [emphasis mine] so-called “indications,” may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned.”

NFP, or period continence, or the “rhythm method” - however you want to describe it - has been known and in use since 1930. I deliberately didn’t include quotes from Humanae Vitae since it was written after Progressio Populorum, but all it did was reiterate Church teaching.

I really don’t get where you are finding that the pope is telling people they must use artificial birth control, and then criticizing them for using it???
 
This thread has gone seriously off topic so it is now closed. Anyone who wishes to start another thread about birth control is free to do so. Thank you to all who participated.
 
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