Protestantizing heresies of Vatican II

[Uxor]

Uxor, try reading this for a pretty good understanding of why those things are happening. There are dissenters in the Church, and they are responsible for much corruption. It’s really sad.

Thanks, I did read that today. It is a shame. I think there is a schism coming, but I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that and that God will step in. I always try and remember to pray for our Pope.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Then tell me why I see all these videos like of a Halloween Mass, a woman dressed as a devil handing out Holy Communion while the Priest sits and she goes to the Altar and gets more Hosts after she runs out. The Barney Mass, the Clown Mass, people sunbathing near the Altar while the Priest is saying Mass, Stealth Princesses sharing the Altar with the Priests. The Masses I’ve attended in recent years, and it has gotten bad, you can’t even listen to the homily or pray with all the people talking, cell phones going off, 50 to 75 people coming in late all the way to Holy Communion, Hosts being dropped, I’ve seen a girl carry a Host back to the pew, another man place a Host in his pocket, homlies for instance of the Priest telling us his experience in a nightclub down in Miami and how the women are dressed, the Tabernacle is never locked so Extra Ordinary Eucharist Ministers can go in it 24/7…I mean I could go on and on, don’t even get me started on the Santana music…geez This is insanity to me. Do you honestly believe God likes this, approves of this?

You have confused the ABUSE of the Mass with the Mass ITSELF.

 

[DustinsDad]

But you’re blaming the wrong things. We agree on WHAT’S wrong, we disagree on WHY it’s that way. The Church cannot lead her people into error, she cannot propose a liturgy that can lead them to impiety. That’s TRADITIONAL Catholic teaching, with an anathema attached to it.

I don’t think most traditionalists think the new liturgy actually leads her people into error - what most will say is it failed to lead them to know the truth - or to paraphrase Trent on the liturgy to raise the people to the meditation of divine things. So much was stripped away (noble simplicity and all that with a certain Pr… er, I mean “ecumenical” influence to the outward signs and text of the Liturgy) that it failed to “lead” clearly enough - and such ambiguities where siezed upon by enemies of the Church (modernists) within to sow confusion among the faithful. I.E. the “Spirit of Vatican II”.

Kind of like the ol’ Pope Honorius deal - it wasn’t what he taught that got him into trouble, it’s what he didn’t teach…as the CA Tract says:
"But that’s not at all what Honorius did. Even a quick review of the records shows he simply decided not to make a decision at all. As Ronald Knox explained, “To the best of his human wisdom, he thought the controversy ought to be left unsettled, for the greater peace of the Church. In fact, he was an inopportunist. We, wise after the event, say that he was wrong. But nobody, I think, has ever claimed that the pope is infallible in not defining a doctrine.”

Similar in some respects to Vatican II and the effects thereof. Alas, God has something in mind here - will bring a greater good out of the present turmoil. But will it get worse before it gets better? We shall see.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t think most traditionalists think the new liturgy actually leads her people into error - what most will say is it failed to lead them to know the truth - or to paraphrase Trent on the liturgy to raise the people to the meditation of divine things. So much was stripped away (noble simplicity and all that with a certain Pr… er, I mean “ecumenical” influence to the outward signs and text of the Liturgy) that it failed to “lead” clearly enough - and such ambiguities where siezed upon by enemies of the Church (modernists) within to sow confusion among the faithful. I.E. the “Spirit of Vatican II”. **I completely disagree that the NO fails to "raise people to the meditation of divine things. And tobelieve most of the rest of what you write above, I would have to subscribe to the conspiracy theory that Protestants helped write the Mass. They didn’t. **

Kind of like the ol’ Pope Honorius deal - it wasn’t what he taught that got him into trouble, it’s what he didn’t teach…as the CA Tract says:"But that’s not at all what Honorius did. Even a quick review of the records shows he simply decided not to make a decision at all. As Ronald Knox explained, “To the best of his human wisdom, he thought the controversy ought to be left unsettled, for the greater peace of the Church. In fact, he was an inopportunist. We, wise after the event, say that he was wrong. But nobody, I think, has ever claimed that the pope is infallible in not defining a doctrine.”
Similar in some respects to Vatican II and the effects thereof. Alas, God has something in mind here - will bring a greater good out of the present turmoil. But will it get worse before it gets better? We shall see.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I don’t believe that VII failed to teach what it was supposed to teach, whether Pope Honorius did or not. You draw connections between the two because you’re predisposed to do so. And yes, I’m predisposed NOT to. What you blame on VII, I blame on what was done TO VII. What you blame on the Mass, I blame on what was done TO the Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Uxor, try reading this for a pretty good understanding of why those things are happening. There are dissenters in the Church, and they are responsible for much corruption. It’s really sad.

I entirely agree.

 

[BobP123]

I agree.

Yes, but in all fairness to the bishops, let’s not leave Pope Paul unblamed for this either. Here is what he said in Progressio Populorum:

Population Growth

1. There is no denying that the accelerated rate of population growth brings many added difficulties to the problems of development where the size of the population grows more rapidly than the quantity of available resources to such a degree that things seem to have reached an impasse. In such circumstances people are inclined to apply drastic remedies to reduce the birth rate.

There is no doubt that public authorities can intervene in this matter, within the bounds of their competence. They can instruct citizens on this subject and adopt appropriate measures, so long as these are in conformity with the dictates of the moral law and the rightful freedom of married couples is preserved completely intact. When the inalienable right of marriage and of procreation is taken away, so is human dignity.

Finally, it is for parents to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God’s law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)

Doesn’t even sound like a Christian thing to write.

 

[AJV]

Some ministers from the Swedish Lutheran church who are “high-church” use the Roman Missal of 1969 for their Mass (yes they call it Mass) in the vernacular. Since they are not validly ordained, there is no Eucharist. This would never have happened with the Mass of Pius V because it’s too “Catholic”. they even “celebrate it ad orientem” as most of the “high masses” are done in that sect.
Could you imagine the Protestants who are doing this?

It did happen in the last century with the Missal of Pius V with, for example, and the extreme High Church wing of Anglicanism.

Sweden itself has a history of coming extremely close to the Roman liturgy (i.e. the TLM) at a time when other Lutherans were delting the Canon and retaining only the “Verba Domini” (which is the main practice in Lutheranism till today) John III of Sweden attempted it with his “Red Book” in which the Eucharistic Prayer is based on the Canon of the Mass. IIRC, High Mass in Sweden even after it turned Lutheran for a long time kept the majority of the cermeonial and prayers of the diocesan usuages. It was only low Masses that were affected.

 

[AJV]

United Methodist…Apostles Creed, Our Father (as said at the N.O. Mass), gospel reading and homily about the same, they used altar girls and boys. They said that basically when they first started attending the N.O. Mass it felt like they never left the Methodist Church. Just show up for one hour, hurry in and out and never got anything out of it. They say the Tridentine Mass is night and day compared to a Methodist Service and that it is the “true worship” of God.

But that hardly means the NO has turned Protestant, Uxor- the Creed and the Our Father are universal throughout many sects and Churches.As for the Gospel, it might have been from the RCL- though it was the RCL that copied the Roman lectionary and not vice versa. Nothing new- many of the Anglican BCP readings for Sundays are identical to those of the TLM.

I can well see a judgment on externals but I feel that the words used also matter-after all was it not one “i” that lead to one of the largest heresies?

 

[BobP123]

But that hardly means the NO has turned Protestant, Uxor- the Creed and the Our Father are universal throughout many sects and Churches.As for the Gospel, it might have been from the RCL- though it was the RCL that copied the Roman lectionary and not vice versa. Nothing new- many of the Anglican BCP readings for Sundays are identical to those of the TLM.

I can well see a judgment on externals but I feel that the words used also matter-after all was it not one “i” that lead to one of the largest heresies?

I believe Uxor went to the trouble to find out from Methodists what THEY feel about the Novus Ordo. She did as you asked so why are you beating up on her?

When you stop to consider that most Catholics wouldn’t know the difference between a Latin Novus Ordo and the TLM, it is not surprising that the Methodists would miss a lot of differences.

That is not to say, however, the Mass wasn’t “Protestantized” by Pope Paul VI. I feel it’s a lot worse. But I don’t want to go there right now.

 

[AJV]

I believe Uxor went to the trouble to find out from Methodists what THEY feel about the Novus Ordo. She did as you asked so why are you beating up on her?

When you stop to consider that most Catholics wouldn’t know the difference between a Latin Novus Ordo and the TLM, it is not surprising that the Methodists would miss a lot of differences.

That is not to say, however, the Mass wasn’t “Protestantized” by Pope Paul VI. I feel it’s a lot worse. But I don’t want to go there right now.

I do apologize if I was beating up on her-that was not my intention- and I do greatly appreciate the trouble she took in finding it out. The object of that was to find out how closely the NO was to the services experienced by her friends in the manner of their prayers. But I still believe that one cannot arrive at a conclusion of Protestantised Mass based on the fact that they are reciting the Our Father and the Apostles Creed or even the Gospel.

And I also realize that externals play a great part in how one views things. But what I am trying to say is that there is something more. If we are judging solely on externals-surely there were at the time of the ‘Reformation’ many Protestant liturgies that in externals looked very Catholic. But they weren’t the same as the TLM.

Likewise you posted that many Catholics wouldn’t recognize the difference between a Latin NO and a TLM. But there is a difference, is there not?

.

 

[AJV]

I believe Uxor went to the trouble to find out from Methodists what THEY feel about the Novus Ordo. She did as you asked so why are you beating up on her?

When you stop to consider that most Catholics wouldn’t know the difference between a Latin Novus Ordo and the TLM, it is not surprising that the Methodists would miss a lot of differences.

That is not to say, however, the Mass wasn’t “Protestantized” by Pope Paul VI. I feel it’s a lot worse. But I don’t want to go there right now.

I do apologize if I was beating up on her-that was not my intention- and I do greatly appreciate the trouble she took in finding it out. The object of that was to find out how closely the NO was to the services experienced by her friends in the manner of their prayers such that “it was exactly the same as a Protestant or Methodist service except for the Consecration”. But I still believe that one cannot arrive at a conclusion of Protestantised Mass based on the fact that they are reciting the Our Father and the Apostles Creed or even the Gospel.

And I also realize that externals play a great part in how one views things. But what I am trying to say is that there is something more. If we are judging solely on externals-surely there were at the time of the ‘Reformation’ many Protestant liturgies that in externals looked very Catholic. But they weren’t the same as the TLM.

Likewise you posted that many Catholics wouldn’t recognize the difference between a Latin NO and a TLM. But there is a difference, is there not?

And seeing that this thread is about “Protestantisation” your comments would not be would add to the discussion and would aid in understanding whether the NO Mass is Protestant.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Yes, but in all fairness to the bishops, let’s not leave Pope Paul unblamed for this either. Here is what he said in Progressio Populorum:

Doesn’t even sound like a Christian thing to write.

As it was written by the Vicar of Christ, with the intent of teaching the whole of the Church in his role as Supreme Pontiff, you can rest assured that it is entirely Christian.

 

[Uxor]

Yes, but in all fairness to the bishops, let’s not leave Pope Paul unblamed for this either. Here is what he said in Progressio Populorum:

Doesn’t even sound like a Christian thing to write.

No it doesn’t…I’m shocked!!

 

[paramedicgirl]

I do apologize if I was beating up on her-that was not my intention- and I do greatly appreciate the trouble she took in finding it out. The object of that was to find out how closely the NO was to the services experienced by her friends in the manner of their prayers such that “it was exactly the same as a Protestant or Methodist service except for the Consecration”. But I still believe that one cannot arrive at a conclusion of Protestantised Mass based on the fact that they are reciting the Our Father and the Apostles Creed or even the Gospel.

And I also realize that externals play a great part in how one views things. But what I am trying to say is that there is something more. If we are judging solely on externals-surely there were at the time of the ‘Reformation’ many Protestant liturgies that in externals looked very Catholic. But they weren’t the same as the TLM.

Likewise you posted that many Catholics wouldn’t recognize the difference between a Latin NO and a TLM. But there is a difference, is there not?

And seeing that this thread is about “Protestantisation” your comments would not be would add to the discussion and would aid in understanding whether the NO Mass is Protestant.

AJV, there was a United Church minister at a Catholic funeral in our parish several years ago. My friend was sitting next to him. He recited all the priest’s responses verbally, from memory, in a low voice. Afterwards he remarked to my friend that he was pleased that the Catholic Mass was identical to the United Church Sunday Service.

I guess the question remains; who copied whom?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

AJV, there was a United Church minister at a Catholic funeral in our parish several years ago. My friend was sitting next to him. He recited all the priest’s responses verbally, from memory, in a low voice. Afterwards he remarked to my friend that he was pleased that the Catholic Mass was identical to the United Church Sunday Service.

I guess the question remains; who copied whom?

I guess we’re to assume that we copied THEM, huh? Always the WORST case scenario when it comes to the motives of the Church authorities. “Traditionalists” simply cannot accept the idea that the various Christian liturgies have common antecendents. They also cannot accept that Protestants have borrowed freely from our tradition as they have seen the real human need for liturgical worship.

Look at this link. Scroll down to “liturgy.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Canada

You’ll note that the UCC is a product of a union with Methodists, whose service is derived from Anglicans, whose service is similar to Catholics, drawing on the same antedents.
Did the minister tell you friend how freely the UCC borrows from other liturgical traditions?

Should we stop baptizing in the name of the Trinity? Our baptismal formula is, word for word, the same as 99% of the Protestants.

Should we stop using the words of the Eucharistic Institution? That is also a part of the liturgies of Protestants, goodness, we even read that over the Lord’s Supper Table of my Baptist youth.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No it doesn’t…I’m shocked!!

If one really thought of this of an official teaching given by the Supreme Pontiff to the universal Church, then I would rethink whether or not I was actually a Catholic.

 

[pnewton]

And why is that called New Order…is there a link with the One World Order?

They both use the word “order”, as does a short order cook and “order up”. I think diners must be in on the conspiracy also.

 

[Uxor]

BobP123:

. There is no denying that the accelerated rate of population growth brings many added difficulties to the problems of development where the size of the population grows more rapidly than the quantity of available resources to such a degree that things seem to have reached an impasse. In such circumstances people are inclined to apply drastic remedies to reduce the birth rate.

This is a scare tactic that the proponents of population control ( and we know who all those groups are) have stated for years…Man is a curse on the land, a plague, man will be so jammed together that the earth will glow orange-red from the heat, there will only be 1 square yard to live in, people pollution, holes in the ozone, global warming, they are even blaming cows farts now. LOL Argh…I can’t believe this.

What exactly are the drastic remedies that people are to use to reduce birth rates? (He states remedies, not remedy)

There is no doubt that public authorities can intervene in this matter, within the bounds of their competence. They can instruct citizens on this subject and adopt appropriate measures, so long as these are in conformity with the dictates of the moral law and the rightful freedom of married couples is preserved completely intact. When the inalienable right of marriage and of procreation is taken away, so is human dignity.

Like China’s One child policy law.

Finally, it is for parents to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God’s law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)

I thought the Lord said “Go Forth and Multipy”.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I thought the Lord said “Go Forth and Multipy”.

The Church’s interpretation of Scripture is the correct one (I mean, according to TRADITIONAL Catholic teaching).

The ability to connect what the Holy Father wrote and what leftist radicals think is nothing short of astonishing. This post would take the gold medal for “leaps in logic.”

 

[Uxor]

They both use the word “order”, as does a short order cook and “order up”. I think diners must be in on the conspiracy also.

LOL Dining out a few times my food looked rather suspicious.