Protestantizing heresies of Vatican II

[JKirkLVNV]

The motives are essentially the same, which is to bring back those that have strayed into the fold.

My question was in reference to V2. Huge difference in the fruits from Trent and the fruits of V2.

They were held at different times. Also, politics entered into it somewhat. Protestant princes were eager to throw off the yoke of the papacy, seize Church holdings, etc. If you were a Catholic king or prince, your subjects were Catholic as well. If you weren’t, neither generally were your subjects. It’s a little simplistic to compare the two and say Trent succeeded and VII failed (for one thing, it takes a very, very long time for a council to be fully implemented). VII hasn’t been fully implemented.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

No I disagree with that…I’ve seen the numbers prior to V2. You can do search on the net, if you’re interested.

No, he’s quite correct. It began before the council (according to numbers on the NET). Also, for all the longing of “traditionalists” for that golden age, according to the John Jay Report (on the paedeophile crisis), most of the offenders were formed and ordained in the pre-conciliar Church. Of course, no one in their right mind would indict the pre-conciliar Church for that, but there’s no shortage of people willing to indict the post-conciliar Church for equally silly reasons.

 

[Uxor]

No, he’s quite correct. It began before the council (according to numbers on the NET). Also, for all the longing of “traditionalists” for that golden age, according to the John Jay Report (on the paedeophile crisis), most of the offenders were formed and ordained in the pre-conciliar Church. Of course, no one in their right mind would indict the pre-conciliar Church for that, but there’s no shortage of people willing to indict the post-conciliar Church for equally silly reasons.

Ok I saw the numbers…74 percent in 1958 to 65% in 1965. 10% does not compare to the rate dropped to 25%. in 2000.

Traditionalist longing for the golden age… It was a golden age. Look at the world and culture before Vatican II. This is not about worshipping a Mass or era, or feelings. It has to do with worshipping God how He wants to be worship. Sanctifying grace, which I’m sorry doesn’t come through that much in the NO Mass. I don’t know why that is, because of V2, the New Mass changes, the abuses, the Priest and congregation’s state of holiness, I don’t know. But in just a short time of attending a Tridentine Mass, I am overwhelmed with graces, protection, joy, peace, for weeks and weeks that I haven’t felt in years. And I thank God almost everyday for this blessing. The reason you can’t see is because I think because God doesn’t want to scandalize you and cause you to lose your faith.

 

[DustinsDad]

… It is clear from that decree that the Protestant observers on Trent were there not just as passive spectators, but were given the option to actually argue and even make proposals to the Council in its deliberations. …

Quoting from that decree from the same link you provided:…the same holy council, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost…desiring nothing more than to remove from among the illustrious German nation all dissensions and schisms regarding religion, and to provide for its tranquillity, peace and concord; being prepared, should they (the Protestants) come, to receive them kindly and to listen to them favorably, and trusting that they will come not with the intention of obstinately assailing the Catholic faith but of learning the truth, and that they will at last, as becomes those zealous for evangelical truth, acquiesce in the decrees and discipline of holy mother Church, has deferred the next session…in order that they may have sufficient time and leisure not only to come but also to propose before that day arrives whatever they may wish…
Therefore, the intention of inviting the Protestants was not to learn from them, but to convert them to the Truth. Allowing them some room to speak and guaranteeing them safe passage, etc. was a way to hopefully get them there - in order to convert them to the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

I don’t think its an honest comparision to what the traditional folks here are talking about - vis-a-vis Protest observers at VII or in the designing of the N.O. Liturgy.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Ok I saw the numbers…74 percent in 1958 to 65% in 1965. 10% does not compare to the rate dropped to 25%. in 2000.

Traditionalist longing for the golden age… It was a golden age. Look at the world and culture before Vatican II. This is not about worshipping a Mass or era, or feelings. It has to do with worshipping God how He wants to be worship. Sanctifying grace, which I’m sorry doesn’t come through that much in the NO Mass. I don’t know why that is, because of V2, the New Mass changes, the abuses, the Priest and congregation’s state of holiness, I don’t know. But in just a short time of attending a Tridentine Mass, I am overwhelmed with graces, protection, joy, peace, for weeks and weeks that I haven’t felt in years. And I thank God almost everyday for this blessing. The reason you can’t see is because I think because God doesn’t want to scandalize you and cause you to lose your faith.

It was clearly stated “that’s when it began.”

I’ve attended the TLM. I attend an reverent NO. I much prefer the latter, though I reverence the former.

And as for Golden Age, the times they were a’ changing. In a few short years, you’d have the Age of Aquarius, Flower Power, Free Love, Tune In, Turn On Drop Out, Down with the Establishment, Hey, Hey, LBJ, How Many Kids Did You Kill Today. But it never occurs to the “traditionalists” that this time for societal flux, leading into the Me generation, etc., might be what impacted mass attendance, vocations etc. No, it’s obviously the NO Mass’ fault, the Council’s fault, Pope Paul VI’s fault. Never mind the obvious need to read CHURCH history, it wouldn’t hurt to read a little secular history as well.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Quoting from that decree from the same link you provided:…the same holy council, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost…desiring nothing more than to remove from among the illustrious German nation all dissensions and schisms regarding religion, and to provide for its tranquillity, peace and concord; being prepared, should they (the Protestants) come, to receive them kindly and to listen to them favorably, and trusting that they will come not with the intention of obstinately assailing the Catholic faith but of learning the truth, and that they will at last, as becomes those zealous for evangelical truth, acquiesce in the decrees and discipline of holy mother Church, has deferred the next session…in order that they may have sufficient time and leisure not only to come but also to propose before that day arrives whatever they may wish…Therefore, the intention of inviting the Protestants was not to learn from them, but to convert them to the Truth. Allowing them some room to speak and guaranteeing them safe passage, etc. was a way to hopefully get them there - in order to convert them to the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

I don’t think its an honest comparision to what the traditional folks here are talking about - vis-a-vis Protest observers at VII or in the designing of the N.O. Liturgy.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

But at VII, they were just observers (granted, that’s a neutral, ie, “you don’t have to come and listen to a sermon.”) Same for the liturgy, just observers.

 

[Uxor]

It was clearly stated “that’s when it began.”

I’ve attended the TLM. I attend an reverent NO. I much prefer the latter, though I reverence the former.

And as for Golden Age, the times they were a’ changing. In a few short years, you’d have the Age of Aquarius, Flower Power, Free Love, Tune In, Turn On Drop Out, Down with the Establishment, Hey, Hey, LBJ, How Many Kids Did You Kill Today. But it never occurs to the “traditionalists” that this time for societal flux, leading into the Me generation, etc., might be what impacted mass attendance, vocations etc. No, it’s obviously the NO Mass’ fault, the Council’s fault, Pope Paul VI’s fault. Never mind the obvious need to read CHURCH history, it wouldn’t hurt to read a little secular history as well.

It all coincided with V2. Save the Mass you save the world. I can’t open your eyes, only God can.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It all coincided with V2. Save the Mass you save the world. I can’t open your eyes, only God can.

Dude, whether you think so or not, you don’t know more than the Church that gave us that Mass. If you think you do, then I’d worry more about God opening YOUR eyes than anyone else’s.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

It all coincided with V2. Save the Mass you save the world. I can’t open your eyes, only God can.

It’s the same thing with abortion. Pope Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae and the bishops not only ignored it, they let priests and theologians teach the opposite.

Thanks to weak bishops abortion became legal in the US in 1973.

Societal changes didn’t result in the bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae. The bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae resulted in societal changes.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It’s the same thing with abortion. Pope Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae and the bishops not only ignored it, they let priests and theologians teach the opposite.

Thanks to weak bishops abortion became legal in the US in 1973.

Societal changes didn’t result in the bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae. The bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae resulted in societal changes.

That, I agree with. That is to say, I think a lot of Catholics were primed to bolt anyway, but we wouldn’t have lost so many if the bishops had acted like bishops, esp. on the ABC/abortion issue.

 

[Uxor]

Dude, whether you think so or not, you don’t know more than the Church that gave us that Mass. If you think you do, then I’d worry more about God opening YOUR eyes than anyone else’s.

I’m not a dude. I’m not trying to offend you either or claiming I know more than the Church but I think from studying and seeing what has happen to the Church since Vatican it is not good. What does it take, your Church doors locked?

 

[Swiss_Guard]

That, I agree with. That is to say, I think a lot of Catholics were primed to bolt anyway, but we wouldn’t have lost so many if the bishops had acted like bishops, esp. on the ABC/abortion issue.

We are in complete agreement on this point. If the bishops had acted like bishops we wouldn’t be seeing many of the problems in the Church.

 

[Uxor]

It’s the same thing with abortion. Pope Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae and the bishops not only ignored it, they let priests and theologians teach the opposite.

Thanks to weak bishops abortion became legal in the US in 1973.

Societal changes didn’t result in the bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae. The bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae resulted in societal changes.

I agree.

 

[Uxor]

We are in complete agreement on this point. If the bishops had acted like bishops we wouldn’t be seeing many of the problems in the Church.

Exactly!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m not a dude. I’m not trying to offend you either or claiming I know more than the Church but I think from studying and seeing what has happen to the Church since Vatican it is not good. What does it take, your Church doors locked?

But you’re blaming the wrong things. We agree on WHAT’S wrong, we disagree on WHY it’s that way. The Church cannot lead her people into error, she cannot propose a liturgy that can lead them to impiety. That’s TRADITIONAL Catholic teaching, with an anathema attached to it.

Sorry, ma’am.

 

[paramedicgirl]

It’s the same thing with abortion. Pope Paul VI promulgated Humanae Vitae and the bishops not only ignored it, they let priests and theologians teach the opposite.

Thanks to weak bishops abortion became legal in the US in 1973.

Societal changes didn’t result in the bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae. The bishops ignoring Humanae Vitae resulted in societal changes.

In Canada, the Canadian Council of Catholic Bishops outright rejected Humanae Vitae.

Tragedy at Winnipeg

A small group, driven by a Liberal Imperative, persuaded our Bishops to ratify a document which virtually nullified the encyclical of the Pope. It gave couples a veto over human life which God in His love had refused. Countless persons have been barred from
existence, countless others conceived but not born because of that document. Every Canadian Catholic living today suffers directly or indirectly from its effects. This is but an outline sketch
of the genesis of what is called “The Winnipeg Statement.”

 

[Uxor]

But you’re blaming the wrong things. We agree on WHAT’S wrong, we disagree on WHY it’s that way. The Church cannot lead her people into error, she cannot propose a liturgy that can lead them to impiety. That’s TRADITIONAL Catholic teaching, with an anathema attached to it.

Sorry, ma’am.

Then tell me why I see all these videos like of a Halloween Mass, a woman dressed as a devil handing out Holy Communion while the Priest sits and she goes to the Altar and gets more Hosts after she runs out. The Barney Mass, the Clown Mass, people sunbathing near the Altar while the Priest is saying Mass, Stealth Princesses sharing the Altar with the Priests. The Masses I’ve attended in recent years, and it has gotten bad, you can’t even listen to the homily or pray with all the people talking, cell phones going off, 50 to 75 people coming in late all the way to Holy Communion, Hosts being dropped, I’ve seen a girl carry a Host back to the pew, another man place a Host in his pocket, homlies for instance of the Priest telling us his experience in a nightclub down in Miami and how the women are dressed, the Tabernacle is never locked so Extra Ordinary Eucharist Ministers can go in it 24/7…I mean I could go on and on, don’t even get me started on the Santana music…geez This is insanity to me. Do you honestly believe God likes this, approves of this?

 

[Uxor]

In Canada, the Canadian Council of Catholic Bishops outright rejected Humanae Vitae.

Tragedy at Winnipeg

A small group, driven by a Liberal Imperative, persuaded our Bishops to ratify a document which virtually nullified the encyclical of the Pope. It gave couples a veto over human life which God in His love had refused. Countless persons have been barred from
existence, countless others conceived but not born because of that document. Every Canadian Catholic living today suffers directly or indirectly from its effects. This is but an outline sketch
of the genesis of what is called “The Winnipeg Statement.”

Also Catholics around the world suffer with Canadians because we are all members of Christ.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Then tell me why I see all these videos like of a Halloween Mass, a woman dressed as a devil handing out Holy Communion while the Priest sits and she goes to the Altar and gets more Hosts after she runs out. The Barney Mass, the Clown Mass, people sunbathing near the Altar while the Priest is saying Mass, Stealth Princesses sharing the Altar with the Priests. The Masses I’ve attended in recent years, and it has gotten bad, you can’t even listen to the homily or pray with all the people talking, cell phones going off, 50 to 75 people coming in late all the way to Holy Communion, Hosts being dropped, I’ve seen a girl carry a Host back to the pew, another man place a Host in his pocket, homlies for instance of the Priest telling us his experience in a nightclub down in Miami and how the women are dressed, the Tabernacle is never locked so Extra Ordinary Eucharist Ministers can go in it 24/7…I mean I could go on and on, don’t even get me started on the Santana music…geez This is insanity to me. Do you honestly believe God likes this, approves of this?

Uxor, try reading this for a pretty good understanding of why those things are happening. There are dissenters in the Church, and they are responsible for much corruption. It’s really sad.

 

[Uxor]

But you’re blaming the wrong things. We agree on WHAT’S wrong, we disagree on WHY it’s that way. The Church cannot lead her people into error, she cannot propose a liturgy that can lead them to impiety. That’s TRADITIONAL Catholic teaching, with an anathema attached to it.

Sorry, ma’am.

Also the Parish I belong to, people drive from 5 states every Sunday to attend Mass because it is that bad where they are at. You tell me why this is.