Protestants and alcohol

[AbideWithMe]

But how does any of this make a case against responsible and moderate alcohol use? These are, yet again, examples of alcohol abuse (drinking and driving even after a small amount of alcohol is irresponsible in my opinion and therefore qualifies as abuse). I’ve already noted how it is indeed possible to monitor alcohol consumption at parish events. For example, at my parish festival the drinking is relegated to a single area, those who imbibe are closely monitored and are held to a limit on how much they drink. There aren’t any problems. When people drink responsibly bad things don’t happen.

I agree, very light alcohol use doesn’t cause problems in itself. But, Christus_vincit, even on this thread other people have said they’ve seen problems from alcohol at church events.

“Closely monitored”? Ehhh…yuck. There’s festive for you. How is that practically done? Say a couple of female college student friends show up, walk around, order a glass of wine, eat some veggie sticks, walk around some more, and then get in their car to drive home. There’s a good chance that they’re impaired. Is someone seriously going to Breathalyze them and detain them? Sounds like fun.

 

[christus_vincit]

I agree, very light alcohol use doesn’t cause problems in itself. But, Christus_vincit, even on this thread other people have said they’ve seen problems from alcohol at church events.

“Closely monitored”? Ehhh…yuck. There’s festive for you. How is that practically done? Say a couple of female college student friends show up, walk around, order a glass of wine, eat some veggie sticks, walk around some more, and then get in their car to drive home. There’s a good chance that they’re impaired. Is someone seriously going to Breathalyze them and detain them? Sounds like fun.

I admit, improper alcohol use can and does cause problems. People need to know their limits. If one plans on driving, he or she should not consume ANY alcohol. That’s a decision that people need to be responsible enough to make. The Church tells us to enjoy in a way that respects our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. We can do this and still allow ourselves an occasional beer - as long as we don’t drink and drive or get drunk.

Let’s look at the scenario another way: a couple of female college students of the legal drinking age enjoy a glass of wine, meander around the festival, and then are safely taken home by their designated driver after an evening of fellowship. They imbibed moderately and responsibly and no one was hurt. What is wrong with that?

 

[JamesCollins]

I don’the find it much of a reach to believe “new wine” is grape juice. I do not think it is definitive at all.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I admit, improper alcohol use can and does cause problems. People need to know their limits. If one plans on driving, he or she should not consume ANY alcohol. That’s a decision that people need to be responsible enough to make. The Church tells us to enjoy in a way that respects our body as a temple of the Holy Spirit. We can do this and still allow ourselves an occasional beer - as long as we don’t drink and drive or get drunk.

Let’s look at the scenario another way: a couple of female college students of the legal drinking age enjoy a glass of wine, meander around the festival, and then are safely taken home by their designated driver after an evening of fellowship. They imbibed moderately and responsibly and no one was hurt. What is wrong with that?

I see nothing wrong with that scenario, except for reality. People often don’t do the ideal thing. Otherwise thoughtful, responsible adults often don’t do the ideal thing (the point of my first post) because, well, they got away with it last time without causing an accident…and they overestimate how clear-minded they are…and maybe they ate different food last time that made a difference to their bodies’ uptake or elimination of alcohol…and taxis or designated drivers can be hard to come by, so surely they’ll be fine driving themselves home…and…and…and.

The Church knows human nature. The CC knows we–even the best us, to say nothing of most of us–often don’t do the ideal thing. That’s why I don’t understand why any Catholic church would promote the sale of alcohol at a public festival. The costs/benefits just don’t make any sense to me. I simply don’t get why people need alcohol to have a good time at what should be an already merry event.

Hmm…I just got a velvety nuzzle from my puppy who wants a walk and run. Maybe I’ll see if the local Catholic festival wants a puppy-hugging booth for fair goers who aren’t feeling cheerful. She would be cheap, cause no hangovers, and be drug-free.

 

[christus_vincit]

I see nothing wrong with that scenario, except for reality. People often don’t do the ideal thing. Otherwise thoughtful, responsible adults often don’t do the ideal thing (the point of my first post) because, well, they got away with it last time without causing an accident…and they overestimate how clear-minded they are…and maybe they ate different food last time that made a difference to their bodies’ uptake or elimination of alcohol…and taxis or designated drivers can be hard to come by, so surely they’ll be fine driving themselves home…and…and…and.

These are, yet again, examples of irresponsible alcohol abuse. We are in agreement about the dangers of alcohol abuse. If people plan to drink they NEED to make good choices, otherwise they are acting irresponsibly. Its very simple to not drink and drive. The Church condemns drinking and driving. It is not the responsibility of the Church to put a global ban on alcohol consumption, though, because some people don’t act appropriately. The Church recognizes that alcohol is not evil in itself.

The Church knows human nature. The CC knows we–even the best us, to say nothing of most of us–often don’t do the ideal thing. That’s why I don’t understand why any Catholic church would promote the sale of alcohol at a public festival. The costs/benefits just don’t make any sense to me. I simply don’t get why people need alcohol to have a good time at what should be an already merry event.

Because the Church understands that adults can make informed decisions. Drinking in moderation can lead to fellowship and a sense of community - both very good things. No one who properly enjoys alcohol “needs” alcohol. That’s called addiction. Chose to imbibe, or don’t. The Church, who has made Her position on alcohol abuse well known, lets it up to each individual adult to make the choice.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I don’the find it much of a reach to believe “new wine” is grape juice. I do not think it is definitive at all.

That is very much a reach. No offense.

 

[rcwitness]

Very interesting debate! I would like to recognize good points made by both sides.

Cat,

You seem to be coming from a bit of an extreme point of view. I think you have good practical reasons for Catholics to “keep in check” their drinking, for sure!

I do have family members who have abused alchohol to serious destruction! Its something that should not be taken lightly. Maybe there could even be more efforts within the Church to combat alchoholism and abuse.

OTOH, I enjoy drinking and cannot for the life of me see the extreme stance of forbiding drinking at Church events, especially weddings! Jesus’ first miracle was to make more wine for the celebration!!!

I know many more people who are able to responsibly drink and enhance their times in a good and healthy manner, than those who act foolish.

I agree with your point about doing things, or making sacrafices if we believe it would save someones soul! Im not sure many situations regarding drinking would fit that bill. Maybe some very personal situations. In the big picture, the Church would lose more parishioners than gain some in the event of prohibiting drinking at Church events. And not just because they need their drink, but because there is nothing sinful about drinking. But in some situations, your point of making sacrifices for the gain of someones better relationship with Jesus is probably good.

I say, we need to learn to listen to those people around us. If they are telling us we have a problem drinking, we probably should comply with their requests in order to give them no reason to accuse. But those who are accusing are not always coming out of righteousness, and cannot always demand something unjustifiable.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I don’the find it much of a reach to believe “new wine” is grape juice. I do not think it is definitive at all.

I used to think so too, but then I read this passage in Acts:

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

-Acts 2:12-15

If new wine was not fermented, then the mockers would not have accused the apostles of being drunken on new wine.

The mockers seem to be insulting the apostles by not only calling them drunkards, but low-class drunkards. “New wine” is the rendering in the KJV. Some other versions translate the Greek word as “sweet wine” or “fresh wine” - that is, wine that was fermented but not aged. The longer a wine is aged (for smoothness and flavor) the more expensive it is.

Here’s another passage that may be relevant, I’m not sure:

No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

-Luke 5:39

Luke doesn’t say that new wine is non-alcoholic, but says that it is inferior to old wine. This verse is not definitive, but with the passage from Acts, I found it helpful.

Paul

 

[charlesby]

Let’s look at the scenario another way: a couple of female college students of the legal drinking age enjoy a glass of wine, meander around the festival, and then are safely taken home by their designated driver after an evening of fellowship. They imbibed moderately and responsibly and no one was hurt. What is wrong with that?

I find this sort of casual drinking behavior by women students or any students really quite scandalous, especially if they’re professing Christians. When I was at university I never went out drinking with the pagans, knowing what sins they engaged in. In the UK we’re commonly assailed by reports in the papers of drunken students doing stupid things and making fools of themselves, and for many women, one glass is all that it takes to make them quite tipsy.

When I suggested that it was not the duty of any church to ban alcohol, I ought to have added that a church is quite within its rights to prohibit drinking on its premises and to strongly discourage it, and one of those situations in which drinking should be strongly discouraged is by students not earning a wage and especially women not accompanied by husbands / guardians.

After all, most students are borrowing money to finance their education and to spend borrowed money on drink is scandalous in itself, quite apart from anything else.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I find this sort of casual drinking behavior by women students or any students really quite scandalous, especially if they’re professing Christians. When I was at university I never went out drinking with the pagans, knowing what sins they engaged in. In the UK we’re commonly assailed by reports in the papers of drunken student doing stupid things and making fools of themselves, and for many women, one glass is all that it takes to make them quite tipsy.

When I suggested that it was not the duty of any church to ban alcohol, I ought to have added that a church is quite within its rights to prohibit drinking on its premises and to strongly discourage it, and one of those situations in which drinking should be strongly discouraged is by students not earning a wage and especially women not accompanied by husbands / guardians.

After all, most students are borrowing money to finance their education and to spend borrowed money on drink is scandalous in itself, quite apart from anything else.

No offense, but this is an example of how human traditions take over and create mythical laws that mimic Gods law.

Meaning, there is NO sin in drinking casually. None.

It is called building fences. Every generation prior to New Testament times had its “sayings of the wise” and these writings were collected and regarded as essential to understanding the Torah. These writings were considered as equal in power to the written law and even considered higher and more valuable.

By building a “hedge about the law” or fence around the law, the Jewish leaders would be able to develop a system of rules and interpretations that would keep people as far from sin as possible. For example, if the law said not to work on the Sabbath day, they would make up volumes of rules that indicated exactly what actions constituted work.

This made a huge separation between the so-called righteous and the sinners. It also made following God a burden that Jesus Himself said was to heavy to carry. It also allowed the leaders appear to be righteous, to approve and disapprove of people and to control all of the religious affairs within Judaism.

This in my opinion is exactly how burdens are put on the backs of followers, and disperses those that are weak in the faith. If drinking (Even moderate drinking and you call it QUITE SCANDALOUS) was the disgraceful sin that many here are implying, then no way is His first miracle as documented by the gospels going to be turning water into wine.

In fact Jesus even claims that He Himself drank. Like I said, drunkenness is in no way related to drinking casually. None. It certainly should not garner statements or glares of judgement. That, is the actual sin.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I find this sort of casual drinking behavior by women students or any students really quite scandalous, especially if they’re professing Christians. When I was at university I never went out drinking with the pagans, knowing what sins they engaged in. In the UK we’re commonly assailed by reports in the papers of drunken students doing stupid things and making fools of themselves, and for many women, one glass is all that it takes to make them quite tipsy.

When I suggested that it was not the duty of any church to ban alcohol, I ought to have added that a church is quite within its rights to prohibit drinking on its premises and to strongly discourage it, and one of those situations in which drinking should be strongly discouraged is by students not earning a wage and especially women not accompanied by husbands / guardians.

After all, most students are borrowing money to finance their education and to spend borrowed money on drink is scandalous in itself, quite apart from anything else.

Forget about what they had done in the times of Christ or immediately thereafter. The first non-fermented grape juice was processed in 1869 by a New Jersey dentist named Dr. Thomas Welch.

There was no technology prior to 1869 to process pasteurize the grape juice to make it non-alcoholic.

That means that Christians from the time of Christ to 1869 had to use REAL wine. IF, this was so crucial, then certainly someone would have been given the knowledge through the Holy Spirit to invent this process LONG before 1869.

It is unreal to me how things become absolute false traditions and it is no surprise to me that people are devastated with scrupulosity with false teachers everywhere creating sin where these is no sin. Rather common through out the ages. Really common.

 

[Tommy999]

I am an evangelical who has been following this thread with interest because I apparently belong to the target group mentioned. I can only speak for myself, but I know of no official position on drinking in my denomination except for a recommendation from our pastor that the only sure way to not get drunk or risk becoming an alcoholic is to not partake in alcohol at all.

I know some believers who drink while others are teetotallers but most of those who drink do so in moderation, or at least they do when they are around me. For example, my wife and I have a glass of wine or a beer at a restaurant on occasion or even a margarita, but we limit ourselves and choose not to keep alcohol at home because we feel it would be too much of a temptation, especially since we have family on both sides who were alcoholics and we don’t want to join their ranks.

If a Catholic friend or fellow Christian of any denomination drank alcohol in my presence, I would not object of find it offensive unless they got plastered on a regular basis and acted like an idiot when they did. Also, if I knew that a fellow Christian abstained from alcohol or found it offensive, I would probably not order a drink in their presence so as to not be an impediment to them, but thats’ just me.

 

[JamesCollins]

I do not believe Jesus would have made over 100 gallons of alcoholic wine to help people get drunk at a wedding feast. I provide this article for your consideration:
jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Alcohol%20Kills/jesus_and_wine.htm

 

[andrewstx]

I do not believe Jesus would have made over 100 gallons of alcoholic wine to help people get drunk at a wedding feast. I provide this article for your consideration:
jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Alcohol%20Kills/jesus_and_wine.htm

But we just read that before DR. Welch invented a way to prevent grape juice from fermenting in 1869 'NON-ALCHOLIC WINE did not exist anywhere.

The so called ‘temperance’ movement is a mi(name removed by moderator)er, what it really was was a movement for total abstinence.

Not everyone who drinks from the chalice, or has an occasional glass of wine or a beer becomes an instant alcoholic. One might as well demand starvation on the odd chance that someone, somewhere might become obese or suffer a heart attack.

Are you familiar with the source of that link? Jesus is Savior is one of the worst anti-Catholic sites on the entire internet.

 

[cheezey]

But we just read that before DR. Welch invented a way to prevent grape juice from fermenting in 1869 'NON-ALCHOLIC WINE did not exist anywhere.

The so called ‘temperance’ movement is a mi(name removed by moderator)er, what it really was was a movement for total abstinence.

Not everyone who drinks from the chalice, or has an occasional glass of wine or a beer becomes an instant alcoholic. One might as well demand starvation on the odd chance that someone, somewhere might become obese or suffer a heart attack.

Are you familiar with the source of that link? Jesus is Savior is one of the worst anti-Catholic sites on the entire internet.

conversely, not everyone who drinks a lot is an alcoholic.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I do not believe Jesus would have made over 100 gallons of alcoholic wine to help people get drunk at a wedding feast. I provide this article for your consideration:
jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Alcohol%20Kills/jesus_and_wine.htm

I don’t think this anti-Catholic propaganda site you posted is accurate on facts or based on any research. 500 for a wedding is nothing, Eastern cultures invite entire villages and family and friends - my wife and I tried to keep it small, but with own wedding here in the States, we had 800 - and this is considered small relative to our parents homelands.

Besides the Apostolic Christian Traditions, see the tradition at any Orthodox Jewish wedding, wine is almost required. Of course, getting drunk must be avoided, although if one does a bit of research on the Traditions of the Festival of Purim… well, getting drunk is required according to some interpretations.

 

[christus_vincit]

I do not believe Jesus would have made over 100 gallons of alcoholic wine to help people get drunk at a wedding feast. I provide this article for your consideration:
jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Alcohol%20Kills/jesus_and_wine.htm

Please refrain from ever citing that website again.

 

[PaulDupre1]

500 for a wedding is nothing, Eastern cultures invite entire villages and family and friends - my wife and I tried to keep it small, but with own wedding here in the States, we had 800 - and this is considered small relative to our parents homelands.

Besides the Apostolic Christian Traditions, see the tradition at any Orthodox Jewish wedding, wine is almost required. Of course, getting drunk must be avoided, although if one does a bit of research on the Traditions of the Festival of Purim… well, getting drunk is required according to some interpretations.

Not only that, but a Middle-Eastern Jewish wedding celebration (if the family is well-off) could last for at least a week of meals and entertainment, including the drinking of a great deal of wine. 150 gallons of wine in that context is not unreasonable.

Paul

 

[andrewstx]

But we just read that before DR. Welch invented a way to prevent grape juice from fermenting in 1869 'NON-ALCHOLIC WINE did not exist anywhere.

The so called ‘temperance’ movement is a mi(name removed by moderator)er, what it really was was a movement for total abstinence.

Not everyone who drinks from the chalice, or has an occasional glass of wine or a beer becomes an instant alcoholic. One might as well demand starvation on the odd chance that someone, somewhere might become obese or suffer a heart attack.

Are you familiar with the source of that link? Jesus is Savior is one of the worst anti-Catholic sites on the entire internet.

At Purim you are supposed to drink so much that you can’t tell the difference between bless Mordechai and curse Haman.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I agree with my husband. I personally think that if the Catholic Church condemned alcohol use by Christians, we would see a massive exodus of Evangelical Protestants into the Catholic Church.

How can Christians condemn something that Christ and the apostles participated in? I also see absolutely no evidence that Evangelicals would flock to the Catholic church. I’ve been “loved” by them for years in their efforts to convert and they’re litany against the Catholic church never, ever, included alcohol.

In closing, I would ask YOU, fellow Catholics–if you knew that a Protestant would convert to Catholicism if YOU quit drinking–would you?

I don’t know there’s just something wrong with a conversion that is dependent on my behavior, there are just too many ways I can go wrong and be the bit they stumble over and leave as easily as they came.