Protestants and alcohol

[JamesCollins]

When you grow up with it, it’s not confusing at all.

Evangelicals have always had a lot of communication going on, in print media in the past, through conferences and seminars and “retreats,” through television (I grew up watching the Billy Graham crusades on television), through the RADIO (Evangelicals have had radio stations for decades–Catholics are definitely coming in late on this media), and in recent decades, online. The first forum I ever got involved with, other than the figure skating forums, is an Evangelical Protestant forum.

Also, part of Evangelical Protestant culture is “fellowship” with each other. A lot of Catholics are shocked and horrified if they attend an Evangelical Protestant worship service because of all the talking that goes on before the worship service begins. That’s part of “fellowship,” and it’s considered “good” in Evangelical Protestant churches.

All this communication makes it easy for Evangelical Protestants to learn who is with them and who isn’t. When I was a young teenager, I could have gone down the list of churches in our city and told you which were Evangelical and which were not. I would have told you that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) was definitely NOT Evangelical!

The Reverent Doctor Billy Graham is the Evangelical of All Evangelicals, although interestingly, some Evangelicals find him “too theologically liberal” because he accepts Catholics as Christians!

If you want to get a handle on what it means to be “Evangelical Protestant,” study Ned Flanders on the Simpsons. He is one of the most consistent and accurate characters on that show, and he is definitely the most well-known Evangelical in the United States!

My first real exposure to Christianity came from listening to Billy Graham on the radio every Sunday night as a young teenager. I believe the Holy Spirit brought me to Christ through Billy Graham’s ministry.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Honestly, I don’t see anything so horrible about Catholic parishes ceasing the use of alcohol at their parish events.

I think it would set a good example in the communities. Certainly no one would criticize the parishes; on the contrary, I think many people in the community would praise them for not taking any chances with safety and health.

Many of our community organizations have alcohol-free policies. E.g., all the hospitals in my city are alcohol-free and ENFORCE this. No one is allowed to bring wine to lunch and drink it in the cafeteria, or have a party on campus that offers alcohol, or have meetings on campus that include alcohol use.

Most of the businesses and companies in our city are alcohol-free. People aren’t allow to drink on the job, or while they are doing business with the company.

Our award-winning Park District is entirely alcohol-free. Our Park District is truly amazing–I’ve lived in other cities and so have my daughters, and we recognize that our Park District is deserving of winning all the awards that it wins. And the policy is “NO ALCOHOL” at any Park District activity. Yes, even at Park District hockey games!

We have a lot of locally-owned restaurants and even a locally-owned grocery store chain that do not sell alcohol, and these places are thriving! They demonstrate that alcohol is not necessary for people to have a good time and good food.

So honestly, I don’t think it would be such a horrible thing for parishes to decide that their parish events would be alcohol-free. Christians don’t need alcohol to have great fellowship with each other and to enjoy life.

I don’t see that comparing hospital or business operations to festivals and such makes any sense, those are professional not social occasions. You are equating serving alcohol at certain parish social events to serving it everywhere all the time. I’ve never lived in a town that’s park district allowed alcohol, county forest preserves did but not the park district, and signs were (and are) posted to that effect. There might have been an exception for village festivals but I think even those were held on village property not park district property.

When it comes down to it I just don’t see that a parish having alcohol at their events is a horrible thing. It’s not like every parish event has alcohol, I’ve actually never attended an event at my current parish that served alcohol and the only one I know of serving alcohol for sure it the annual dinner fund raiser for the school. That one is a big, expensive, formal dinner and they serve wine with dinner. I don’t attend that one because (in the order in which they disagree with me) it’s formal, expensive, big. If the parish had something like say an October fest with music, food and beer I would attend.

 

[johnnyc176]

Catholics, some of you are still emotional over the loss of the Latin Mass and many of the traditions that used to be hallmarks in the Catholic Church, e.g., veiling for women, priest facing front instead of people, pipe organ music or chant in all Masses, dressing up for Mass, etc.

Except it hasn’t been lost. It is alive and well and flourishing in many areas praise God.

 

[JamesCollins]

When it comes down to it I just don’t see that a parish having alcohol at their events is a horrible thing. It’s not like every parish event has alcohol, I’ve actually never attended an event at my current parish that served alcohol and the only one I know of serving alcohol for sure it the annual dinner fund raiser for the school. That one is a big, expensive, formal dinner and they serve wine with dinner. I don’t attend that one because (in the order in which they disagree with me) it’s formal, expensive, big. If the parish had something like say an October fest with music, food and beer I would attend.

I’ve never seen a social event at my parish outside of Lent that didn’t include alcohol. And a couple of nights a year they have “Casino Nights” in addition to the alcohol. And you are right – I often couldn’t afford the tickets to the events even if I wanted to go.

 

[Stephen168]

My Mom grew up in an Italian Catholic neighborhood where drinking was done in moderation and getting drunk was just not done.

My Dad grew up in a Midwest Baptist culture where it seemed you were religious or you drank and if you drank, you got drunk.

I also think about the liquor laws of the two states. In the Midwest the laws were very restrictive and in California very loose.

After living in various regions of the country, I’ve come to believe that states with restrictive liquor laws and the good-vs-evil attitude toward alcohol produces more alcohol abuse than states with liberal laws and a more indifferent view of alcohol.

As my parents never understood the others attitude about and use of alcohol, I understand why people from one culture do not understand the other.

 

[Tommy999]

My first real exposure to Christianity came from listening to Billy Graham on the radio every Sunday night as a young teenager. I believe the Holy Spirit brought me to Christ through Billy Graham’s ministry.

Me too, James. It was at a Billy Graham Crusade where I came to accept Christ as my Lord and Savor and became a Christian. The Gospel message was presented in a succinct and understandable manner and the Holy Spirit was at work drawing me to go there to it. I think Billy Graham did as much as anyone in the 20th century to help bring people to Christ, in my opinion. Of course, his crusades are not the *only * way to come to God but it was very helpful way to me and many other American Christians. I still have much room to grow spiritually but that was a good starting point.

Billy was not an apologist who argued doctrine. He was an evangelist who lived a godly life who knew how to preach the gospel in an understandable way that God used in a mighty way to draw people to God as well as to answer questions and give advice on how to live a practical godly Christian life. Plus, I thought he was very ecumenical in the sense that – even though he was a Baptist – he only urged people to go to a “Bible-believing” church, not to a specific denomination. I will always have a fond place in my heart for Rev Billy Graham.

 

[Cat]

Except it hasn’t been lost. It is alive and well and flourishing in many areas praise God.

I’m sorry to be unclear. I was speaking of that time when the altars were ripped away, the organs replaced with pianos and tambourines, the priests stepped away from the ambo and strolled among the congregation while giving their homily, the veils came off, and everything was in vernacular. Apparently in some parishes, the changes happened very fast and took a lot of Catholics by surprise, and they found it hurtful.

I’ve read over and over again on CAF how hard this was for many Catholics to see (athough other Catholics were happy to see the changes). I can certainly understand that–it is hard to see cherished traditions literally ripped away and replaced with something that you’ve always considered “Protestant.”

That’s what a lot of Evangelicals are feeling when they see abstinence policies rescinded, and congregations not only allowed, but encouraged to imbibe. Of course, some Evangelicals love it because they want to drink and see no harm in it.

But many Evangelicals feel like they’ve lost something precious.

It is encouraging that you say that the Latin Mass is still thriving. It is said daily in our city.

So hopefully, some Evangelical Protestant denominations, para-church organizations, and individuals will continue to practice complete abstinence from alcohol.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’ve never seen a social event at my parish outside of Lent that didn’t include alcohol. And a couple of nights a year they have “Casino Nights” in addition to the alcohol. And you are right – I often couldn’t afford the tickets to the events even if I wanted to go.

Well the dinner isn’t unaffordable, and it is a fundraiser, I just don’t spend money going out to dinner, ever, that’s just me and what I’m willing to spend money on. Other than that all our parish events are affordable and usually you give what ever donation you see fit. I did go to a parish “Casino Night” once long ago and far away, we had a really good time and pooled our winnings because one of our co-worker really, really wanted these TV trays that were on of the prizes. I can’t imagine that every event would serve alcohol, that is so odd to me, we have social events almost monthly and there’s no alcohol.

 

[South_Bound]

JamesCollins:

Do Prrotestants have church events which include alcohol or do they tend to frown on these activities at church?

We don’t for three reasons.

1. Because it would cause a weaker brother to stumble.
2. Because it promotes drunkenness.
3. Because it gives a bad testimony about the Church.

 

[4Squarebaby]

It’s that time of year when the festival season at Catholic parishes in my area gets into full swing. Generally, a lot of the neighborhoods wind up unhappy about these festivals which are meant to earn money for the parish, but also bring a lot of drunkedness into the neighborhoods because the festivals tend to sell alcohol as part of their fund-raising. It is a part of Catholic culture which I find disturbing – I don’t know why any church would encourage drinking at such large events. Do Protestants have church events which include alcohol or do they tend to frown on these activities at church?

While we may not go as far as saying any use of alcohol is a sin church employees are not allowed to partake of it on church property. The selling of alcohol and gambling even to raise funds for a good cause seems something that should be left to the rest of the world and not something done at an event we sponsor.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Some of my relatives, now “nondenominational” denounce anything Catholics do… and they do bring up our acceptance of non-drunk legal adults booze and gambling, but all do have church sanctioned fantasy football, all drink beer/wine/spirits at home, and all play texas-holdem. … sometimes with the pastor

 

[zaffiroborant]

So those of you who are adamant about not stumbling others would you agree that women should not dress like this reporter?
After all there are many Muslims and LDS who would find this utterly immodest!!

 

[Cat]

So those of you who are adamant about not stumbling others would you agree that women should not dress like this reporter?
After all there are many Muslims and LDS who would find this utterly immodest!!

According to the article, she was in violation of a court dress code.

Christians are charged in the Scriptures to obey the civil authorities as long as their laws are not in conflict with God’s laws.

A “dress code” is not in violation of Scripture. The woman was at fault, not for wearing a sleeveless outfit, but for violating the dress code.

Zaffiroborant, I think it is Scriptural and according to Church tradition for Christian women to dress modestly. The question continues to be, “What is modest dress for women?” and that’s not easy to answer.

The stumbling block teaching in the Scriptures has to do with basic Christian love for each other. By obeying, to the best of our understanding, the teaching to not put a stumbling block in someone’s way, we are demonstrating love for one another. Love trumps liberty. St. Paul said that we are free to eat anything we wish, but not everything is good for us to eat.

Rather than trying to figure out ways to argue against the “stumbling block” teaching when it comes to alcohol use by Christians, I think that we need to figure out what we personally should be doing to obey the teaching.

Perhaps some Christians will conclude that they need to allow an occasional glass of wine or a beer in their diet, because NOT drinking alcohol is placing a stumbling block in their neighbors’ way.

And other Christians–we’ve seen some in this thread–will conclude that their casual and healthy drinking is putting a stumbling block in the way of a friend or loved one who has a problem with alcohol.

The point is that we need to stop defending our “right” to do what we please, and examine what we are doing in the light of stumbling block teaching and be honest with ourselves and God.

 

[Tommy999]

Very well said, Cat. I agree totally.

I have no reason to doubt that the reporter was trying to do her job in good faith and was probably just not aware of the dress code in that courthouse location. Something tells me she is aware now . Who knows? Maybe the publicity might even help her career.

If I had a daughter, I don’t think I would like her dressing like that for church because I think it would be inappropriate for that, but that’s just me and I’m probably considered too “old-school” for some. I can live with that. Plus, I don’t have to worry about that aspect too much because my wife and I only have sons.

*****1 Timothy 2:9-10
English Standard Version (ESV)

9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.**** *

 

[South_Bound]

We don’t for three reasons.

1. Because it would cause a weaker brother to stumble.
2. Because it promotes drunkenness.
3. Because it gives a bad testimony about the Church.

So those of you who are adamant about not stumbling others would you agree that women should not dress like this reporter?
After all here are many Muslims and LDS who would find this utterly immodest!!

We don’t consider Muslims or Mormons to be our brothers, so that verse wouldn’t apply in this situation.

It should also be pointed out that the reported was told to cover up because she violated the dress code, not because she was dressed immodestly.

Thirdly, I would point out that modest and immodest are oftentimes subjective, while what we’re talking about here, tempting a weaker brother with alcohol, is not.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So basically you all are saying that you get to chose what is a stumbling block and who is your brother, and have decided that alcohol is a block, modesty isn’t and Muslims aren’t our brothers.

 

[South_Bound]

So basically you all are saying that you get to chose what is a stumbling block and who is your brother, and have decided that alcohol is a block, modesty isn’t and Muslims aren’t our brothers.

Yes. We do recognize that alcohol consumption, particularly the heavy alcohol consumption that goes on at Catholic carnivals and festivals, may be a temptation to a weaker brother who struggles with an alcohol problem, or one who may be tempted to drink to drunkenness.

The Bible is very clear that we’re to show consideration for our weaker brother. So you can mock us all you like for doing that, but the fact that you think it’s worthy of mockery says a lot more about you than it does about us.

Third, I didn’t say immodesty wasn’t a stumbling block. I said that, often, what is considered “immodest” is subjective.

Fourth, no, Muslims aren’t our brothers.

zaffiroborant:

I’m not mocking you just pointing out that you only take stumbling someone seriously when it comes to alcohol.

Actually, we take it seriously in all areas. I just specified alcohol because the topic of this thread is alcohol consumption.

Start a topic about Christian liberty and stumbling blocks in other areas and I’ll be happy to address it.

But thanks for the slander, anyway.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Yes. We do recognize that alcohol consumption, particularly the heavy alcohol consumption that goes on at Catholic carnivals and festivals, may be a temptation to a weaker brother who struggles with an alcohol problem, or one who may be tempted to drink to drunkenness.

The Bible is very clear that we’re to show consideration for our weaker brother. So you can mock us all you like for doing that, but the fact that you think it’s worthy of mockery says a lot more about you than it does about us.

Third, I didn’t say immodesty wasn’t a stumbling block. I said that, often, what is considered “immodest” is subjective.

Fourth, no, Muslims aren’t our brothers.

I’m not mocking you just pointing out that you only take stumbling someone seriously when it comes to alcohol.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Bible is very clear that we’re to show consideration for our weaker brother. So you can mock us all you like for doing that, but the fact that you think it’s worthy of mockery says a lot more about you than it does about us.

I’d say unhealthy eating, slanderous impious conversation, and preaching a false gospel are eternally more dangerous for a weaker brother than alcohol. I’ve never seen any alcohol-free church serve only healthy foods, limited desserts, limit topics of conversation or make sure to watch one’s mouth (I’ve heard vulgarities out of pastors mouths while preaching from the pulpit), or establish a solid foundational basis for what is being taught (other than ‘the Bible says [fill-in-whatever-preacher-is-sayin]’)

 

[rinnie]

It’s that time of year when the festival season at Catholic parishes in my area gets into full swing. Generally, a lot of the neighborhoods wind up unhappy about these festivals which are meant to earn money for the parish, but also bring a lot of drunkedness into the neighborhoods because the festivals tend to sell alcohol as part of their fund-raising. It is a part of Catholic culture which I find disturbing – I don’t know why any church would encourage drinking at such large events. Do Protestants have church events which include alcohol or do they tend to frown on these activities at church?

Reminds me of the joke everytime.

Protestants don’t recognize the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.
Jews don’t recognize Christ as the Lord.
And Mormans don’t recognize eachother Saturday night at the bar.

It is not the Church that brings on drunkedness anymore then the bars. It is people who cannot control their drinking that brings on drunkedness.

I don’t believe the Church encourages drinking anymore then Jesus did at the wedding when they ran out of wine.

Drinking is not a sin, it is when you cannot control it when it becomes a sin.