Protestants and annulments

[JulianN]

But I also see it as a man made rule that has pros and cons. And the cons are showing to outweigh the pros.

You’ve certainly not presented anything that would suggest the cons outweigh the pros, so I’m not sure where you’re drawing that conclusion.

Let’s assume for a moment that it went the way you think it should. The couple presents a case to the Tribunal and their marriage is found invalid. Meanwhile, the one person who wants a divorce files for that in a civil court. And it’s denied. How do you envision things moving along – legally bound in an invalid marriage?

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

But I also see it as a man made rule that has pros and cons. And the cons are showing to outweigh the pros.

You’ve certainly not presented anything that would suggest the cons outweigh the pros, so I’m not sure where you’re drawing that conclusion.

Let’s assume for a moment that it went the way you think it should. The couple presents a case to the Tribunal and their marriage is found invalid. Meanwhile, the one person who wants a divorce files for that in a civil court. And it’s denied. How do you envision things moving along – legally bound in an invalid marriage?

As far as I know, all of the U.S. is no-fault divorce.

Is that a reasonable hypothetical situation?

Remember, it’s just the U.S. who is going annulment crazy.

 

[JulianN]

Remember, it’s just the U.S. who is going annulment crazy.

Hardly. Petitions for nullity have been on a steady decline.

 

[Ammi]

Because marriages have been declining, and the percentage of Grant’s has stayed the same.

But at least petitions are down, yes.

 

[Ammi]

Julian, thanks for coming back and discussing. I’m done with this thread. You can have a glass of wine, and celebrate.

 

[MichaelP3]

Fair enough! And I have no problem with your reply. And any other denomination can claim te same!

But if you go further back to what I replied to you will see the position you established is not what I responded to.

It was stated that “non-Catholic” churches do this and that “because they can”. As if the whole marriage part and remarriage part is just not right “outside of Catholicism”. So I merely asked what kind of annulment process will be acceptable out there? No actuall answer received!.

So your post rings true in so many ways. Yet the main question on what is acrually expected is still very much clouded! And anyone else, read a bit further back first!

 

[JulianN]

As if the whole marriage part and remarriage part is just not right “outside of Catholicism”. So I merely asked what kind of annulment process will be acceptable out there? No actuall answer received!.

The Catholic Church can only make determinations that are “acceptable” to itself. I suppose any church is free to set up whatever system they’d like, but the Catholic Church wouldn’t accept that.

 

[MichaelP3]

The Catholic Church can only make determinations that are “acceptable” to itself. I suppose any church is free to set up whatever system they’d like, but the Catholic Church wouldn’t accept that

I like your response as it makes totally sense! The difference is maybe that it seems that a part of this forum has this “Bashing anything non-Catholic attitude” which quite honestly damages any Christian dialogue and what Jesus wanted.

I do not think many others on here agrees with it considering the posts but I guess that’s on them. Catholics have them ( I have been told to be more accurate although I do think it is quote obvuous! I am referring to annulments here! The very fact that non-Catholics are bashed on it all the way because “tbey can” or “whatever” ) any non-Catholics are just not allowed! That is just wrong!

 

[MichaelP3]

There won’t be one for protestants that the Catholic church will accept because the procedure isn’t the issue. It’s the authority to find marriages null that is the issue. The Catholic church considers all marriages to be valid, and will only investigate to determine if it was null to begin with when asked to. Essentially it is only the bishops that have the authority to make this determination

But I do not think you understand what I am pointing towards. Whether the Catholic Church think they have authority here is not the question. I was merely trying to see what “kind” of Catholics think when they bash a “non-Catholic” church with regards to remarriage and if there is any way they would accept any kind of annulment. (Also a purely academic question. Do we have a “an option”)

It is actually easy. If they do not accept any kind of annulment then stop the bashing. Statistically there will also be “invalid marriages” in “non-Catholic” circles. But now the “non-Catholic” is WRONG and gets judged by the Catholic according to “their” rules. Come on, that just doesn’t add up!

 

[MichaelP3]

I am not really interested in suggesting how Protestants might handle their Protestant business.

I am really concerned with this statement! Maybe in future you should think about posting a viewpoint you are not prepared to defend. Because let’s be honest, who would you be fooling anyway!

Kind Regards!

 

[MichaelP3]

Sorry I missed this post.

At the moment the “you” in these posts can actually mean anything. I have not seen my question addressed from any kind of viewpoint or “you” thus far.

Would YOU (I mean you as in 1ke in this instance) like to contribute?

 

[Patri]

But, is it “our rule?” shouldn’t it be the rule of every church? I mean we do all read The Bible and though there is a difference in the number of books, Jesus not supporting divorce is clear. So why is it being normalised in a good number of protestant churches? I find myself at a crossroad when a divorced Christian talks to me about dating, marriage etc
I know they have been taught that it is fine and that probably is on their leaders, I might be missing something but I don’t understand how a civil divorce automatically cancels the covenant and spiritual ties that come with the church marriage. So in my case (and I guess it is the same for most catholics), it is not bashing, I simply do not want any of my friends to marry anyone who is still married and put himself/herself in any danger. It is a lot easier for me to smile and say “congratulations!”

 

[Wannano]

But, is it “our rule?” shouldn’t it be the rule of every church? I mean we do all read The Bible and though there is a difference in the number of books, Jesus not supporting divorce is clear. So why is it being normalised in a good number of protestant churches? I find myself at a crossroad when a divorced Christian talks to me about dating, marriage etc
I know they have been taught that it is fine and that probably is on their leaders, I might be missing something but I don’t understand how a civil divorce automatically cancels the covenant and spiritual ties that come with the church marriage. So in my case (and I guess it is the same for most catholics), it is not bashing, I simply do not want any of my friends to marry anyone who is still married and put himself/herself in any danger. It is a lot easier for me to smile and say “congratulations!”

I find your answer interesting. Yes, we all read the same Book and realize that Jesus does not support divorce. But divorce even among Christians happens. When it does, Catholics have a distinct advantage with the practice of annulment. It provides a way to access remarriage without experiencing the guilt that one may be transgressing against God. What non-Catholics need is for Catholics to show us where in the Bible that we both read, that Jesus accepts/proposes the concept of annulment. It certainly appears to provide a way out.

 

[Patri]

It is not really a way out, not everyone is able to get an annulment and remarry. I know of someone that went to her priest and he told her that she did not have grounds for an annulment. There are reasons why a marriage is declared non-valid, that has to be examined by the tribunal. I do think the ones I have heard are pure common sense and logic. For example being coerced into marriage (and the couple is asked if they are there willingly), or when there is deception and one does not tell the other that they have no intention of having kids… I know that there are other reasons. If I got married and unfortunately got a divorce but not an annulment because the marriage was valid, then it would be “till death” for me. I know we all have a desire to be loved and a legal separation in the case of domestic abuse, for example, is a lesser evil but I really do not understand the easy divorce and remarriage I see in some non-catholics. I would like to get an insight, don’t they believe it is forever? What are they told by their pastors when they get a divorce?

 

[GKMotley]

Consider that the decree of nullity is not something done to a marriage, but a judgement that no marriage, as the Church defines it sacramentally, has occurred. A valid marriage is an impediment to a successive marriage, during the life of one or the other persons involved. A declaration that there was no such valid marriage shows that no such impediment exists.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

I would like to know what is your idea of how a central authourity will correctly advise these people to do it? What kind of annulment in Protestant circles will be acceptable?

No protestant central authority could suffice even if it existed as they wouldn’t have any actual episcopal authority.

How should the procedure go?

Submit your documentation to the diocesan marriage tribunal for a ruling.

What would be “correct”?

Convert and adhere to Catholic rulings on matters of matrimony.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

can include the bishop himself sitting down with the findings, reading them, presumably seeking wisdom through prayer (I would hope so, anyway), and making a decision on his own. I am all in favor of that. I believe in the bishop himself, who is ultimately the “pastor” of everyone in his diocese, being closely involved in matters involving his faithful, instead of “subbing out” everything to diocesan functionaries.

Except an Anglican Bishop is almost invariably a layman unless he received the Dutch Touch.

 

[GKMotley]

Or Polish Pat.

And Anglicans have a different view (more that one, in fact) on the matter. If not the form or the intent.

 

[Wannano]

It is not really a way out, not everyone is able to get an annulment and remarry. I know of someone that went to her priest and he told her that she did not have grounds for an annulment. There are reasons why a marriage is declared non-valid, that has to be examined by the tribunal. I do think the ones I have heard are pure common sense and logic. For example being coerced into marriage (and the couple is asked if they are there willingly), or when there is deception and one does not tell the other that they have no intention of having kids… I know that there are other reasons. If I got married and unfortunately got a divorce but not an annulment because the marriage was valid, then it would be “till death” for me. I know we all have a desire to be loved and a legal separation in the case of domestic abuse, for example, is a lesser evil but I really do not understand the easy divorce and remarriage I see in some non-catholics. I would like to get an insight, don’t they believe it is forever? What are they told by their pastors when they get a divorce?

It is a way out for some obviously. Again I will ask, where is the Biblical teaching for annulment found?

Certainly there are non-Catholic traditions where divorce and remarriage is almost expected when the marriage breaks down, but to generalize and say all nons see it that way is not helpful or accurate. Many people struggle with the question. If any annulment process meets the approval of God and eliminates the sin of remarriage I wonder why non-Catholics have not caught on to the concept. When in the history of the Catholic Church was annulment first instituted?

 

[Patri]

I said some non-catholics. To be honest I’m yet to meet a divorced Protestant that stays unmarried because he/she feels they made vows before God and man till death. I am speaking from my experience. I would like to know why they feel divorce is ok.