Protestants and divorce

[schaick]

They were never married in the sight of God, to begin with. God was not present at the “wedding.” Therefore, there is nothing for “man” (or woman) to “wrest asunder” - a valid Sacrament never existed.

A civil contract not involving God did exist, and that is what is severed in a decree of divorce.

This is getting a bit confusiing didn’t someone say that Christians were allowed to then join the Catholic church even if not married by a Priest, but had been bapized?

But then if they divorce after joining the Catholic church it could be anulled because the marriage never really existed?

Wait!! I just figured a loophole for Christians to get around the rule Jesus wanted us to follow:

Everyone Christian that wants a divorce should first join the Catholic church and then get it anulled and it is ok because a true union never existed in the eyes of GOD.

 

[schaick]

She is Mother of God.

She is the mother of Jesus, GOD’s Word incarnate - not the GODHEAD. An amazing and beautiful example of an obedient servant to GOD.

Last time I go off topic-promise!!

 

[rinnie]

I actually have to agree with this, even though I am not an agnostic. Pat answers DO NOT work for families struggling with serious issues…they need understanding and care and not the “icicles of truth” thrown at them in the form of religious answers (not that anyone here is doing that.

Being in a very difficult marriage situation myself, 2 serious health issues and 2 special needs children, and having almost all my Christian support disappear after my heavy need threatened them b/c it didn’t/hasn’t improved with prayer,counseling, etc…it’s VERY hard! I know it sounds weird to say this but I’ve found New Age-type people to be the most helpful, kind – for the most part. But it’s the truth. Job’s counselors tried to answer for God to 'help" Job…then we read how God rebukes those who have “answers” for Job’s problems. Sometimes as people of faith, the best thing we can do for marriages/tough issues is simply BE Christ for people and not try to help by pontificating for God—be a role model w/o giving answers. That’s what does encourage me.

Gretahope, I know that for some reason no matter what I say, I seem to tick you off. But may I say that we all have our sufferings in this world. Speaking for myself I suffered deeply the last 15 years. I thought it would never end, my husband got cancer, my brother died, my baby died, my father in law died , then my Dad died. My suffering was death. God cured my husband but took the rest.

I know what it feels like, when you suffer you feel you are the only one in the world. And you want help, and fast. But its only after your ordeal that you come out of it a better stronger, compassionate person.

Suffering does different things to different people. Some people can hide it, others give it up completely to God and say take over, I trust you. Its when you say Okay God I quit, I have to let you take over, I am not that strong, that a miracle happens. He will!

And then you find peace, and love, and contentment. And you know you are where you need to be. People like us cannot give you the answers. Only God can. You are doing Gods work. What you are put here to do, and he is proud. You will see that someday.

You need a hug, you need a shoulder, you need a break. See in the book of Job. when I first read it, I kinda felt like Job, that God was picking on me or something.

But after all the pain, the suffering, the loss I felt something different. I learned that some how some way I did survive. Like you are right now. Everyday no matter how hard, how you think you could not survive, you did, and you will. And thats God carrying you, and you never knew it. Like Job he trusted God completely. Look at the end of Job, God gave him ten times more.

My Dad used to tell me when we suffer we are the chosen ones, we are blessed by God. I used to think, are you nuts. But I am getting it now. And sometime soon you will to. I promise. Hang in there. Better days are ahead.

Remember what the navy seals say. Our easy day was yesterday. Its gonna feel that way for awhile, but soon you will get more good days I promise. And when you get them you will enjoy the much more.

 

[PRmerger]

Wait!! I just figured a loophole for Christians to get around the rule Jesus wanted us to follow.

And the Protestants don’t use the “adultery loophole”? If you believe what Protestants proclaim Jesus said they have a really “fun” way to get divorced “morally”–hey, dear wife, I want to divorce you and Jesus abhors divorce, but he did say, I think, “except for porneia”, so that means all I have to do is find a honey (already have, actually) and sleep with her, and then Jesus says it’s ok for me to divorce you!

[SIGN]How’s that for a loophole? [/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

She is the mother of Jesus, GOD’s Word incarnate - **not the GODHEAD. ** An amazing and beautiful example of an obedient servant to GOD.

Well, shaick, that’s very Catholic of you to say that!

 

[jmcrae]

This is getting a bit confusiing didn’t someone say that Christians were allowed to then join the Catholic church even if not married by a Priest, but had been bapized?

The ministers of the Sacrament of Marriage are one baptized Christian woman and one baptized Christian man.

Only Catholics are required to be married on holy ground with a priest as witness.

But then if they divorce after joining the Catholic church it could be anulled because the marriage never really existed?

No. If they were both non-Catholics at the time of the wedding, then they are married until death they do part. If they get a divorce, only the civil contract (“I will wash the dishes and give you sex, and you will earn money and take out the garbage”) can be dissolved by divorce; the sacramental aspect of the marriage remains forever.

But if someone is Catholic and marries outside the Church, then he is not actually married, because Catholics are required to be married in Church with a priest as witness.

 

[otjm]

Can you post the text of one? I would be interested to read one.

No, I can’t - and that is just the point. I don’t think that the petitioner and respondent can even see the entire case file; I would defer to a Canon lawyer on the point as I cannot research it at the moment.

The parties are sent a letter if there is a decree of nullity; it is a private matter to each of them and I have yet to see one. Further, the Church can require certain things of one or both of the parties (e.g. counseling before they are able to marry again) and there may be other stipulations. Often the parties may not want to discuss such issues with anyone else.

I have been informed by one person that she received a decree of nullity and was required to obtain counseling (which she did). I do not know if the other party was required anything. And I most certainly did not see the decree she received.

The point I am trying to make is that people talk; they tell stories; and just because they talk and tell a story does not mean that it is the truth; and if not the truth, it does not mean they are lying. The truth consists of the facts of the case; they may not know the facts sufficently to be able to explain it to another; they may not believe the facts and make up their own story; and they may be emotionally so involved with the issue that they are not particularly rational about it. And that, if you have ever dealt with someone going through a divorce should not come as a surprise. Some people would not accept a decree of nullity in their marriage if the Pope himself granted it. And they, in particular, are not likely to address the issues of the decree, but rather are likely to paint the marriage as anything but what it was.

The oint I was trying to make was that the poster was giving us all a “He said she said” statement, allegedly either from the poster’s observations of another marriage, or their own, of from comments by someone (possibly one of the parties). The essence of the statement was “She lied and cheated and had a relative priest help her do so”, to which I say, “Umm Hmmmmmm” and wait for more.

 

[gretahope]

This is getting a bit confusiing didn’t someone say that Christians were allowed to then join the Catholic church even if not married by a Priest, but had been bapized?

But then if they divorce after joining the Catholic church it could be anulled because the marriage never really existed?

Wait!! I just figured a loophole for Christians to get around the rule Jesus wanted us to follow:

Everyone Christian that wants a divorce should first join the Catholic church and then get it anulled and it is ok because a true union never existed in the eyes of GOD.

I’m a new convert…and frankly I’ve never understood the issue with this. I do believe that Mary is deserving of much more reverence than given in Protestantism…but whether or not she had other children makes NO difference to me and my gratefulness for what she did and for my salvation. Can someone explain why books are written about this issue and why debates go on and on about whether or not she had other children? I’ve never understood either why anger is aroused regarding her sinlessness. God can do anything, making US clean as snow from sin IS what He has done and why we rejoice.
I love the Catholic Church, believe me, but I don’t think it demeans Mary in any way…God could have simply washed her clean of sin at the moment she conceived Jesus via the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t diminish my faith in the least! She was/is an incredible woman, blessed above all women…regardless of this issue. Why all the arguing?
Mary rejoiced in “God my Savior”----if she’s sinless why does she need a Savior?

 

[4Squarebaby]

I’m a new convert…and frankly I’ve never understood the issue with this. I do believe that Mary is deserving of much more reverence than given in Protestantism…but whether or not she had other children makes NO difference to me and my gratefulness for what she did and for my salvation. Can someone explain why books are written about this issue and why debates go on and on about whether or not she had other children? I’ve never understood either why anger is aroused regarding her sinlessness. God can do anything, making US clean as snow from sin IS what He has done and why we rejoice.
I love the Catholic Church, believe me, but I don’t think it demeans Mary in any way…God could have simply washed her clean of sin at the moment she conceived Jesus via the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t diminish my faith in the least! She was/is an incredible woman, blessed above all women…regardless of this issue. Why all the arguing?
Mary rejoiced in “God my Savior”----if she’s sinless why does she need a Savior?

The why, of why books are dedicated to the matter is the claim of infallibility. If you are wrong just once the claim falls apart…

 

[rinnie]

I’m a new convert…and frankly I’ve never understood the issue with this. I do believe that Mary is deserving of much more reverence than given in Protestantism…but whether or not she had other children makes NO difference to me and my gratefulness for what she did and for my salvation. Can someone explain why books are written about this issue and why debates go on and on about whether or not she had other children? I’ve never understood either why anger is aroused regarding her sinlessness. God can do anything, making US clean as snow from sin IS what He has done and why we rejoice.
I love the Catholic Church, believe me, but I don’t think it demeans Mary in any way…God could have simply washed her clean of sin at the moment she conceived Jesus via the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t diminish my faith in the least! She was/is an incredible woman, blessed above all women…regardless of this issue. Why all the arguing?
Mary rejoiced in “God my Savior”----if she’s sinless why does she need a Savior?

See thats what people do not understand gretahope, to make things simple Mary did need a savior and was saved from sin. But here is the thing, she was saved at the moment of her conception. So if she could have had sin it was not even for a second. See what I mean. The moment she was conceived in her mothers womb it was instant saved. She was saved from original sin right off that bat. So we can say she was sinless because she was never born into original sin.

 

[rinnie]

The why, of why books are dedicated to the matter is the claim of infallibility. If you are wrong just once the claim falls apart…

Correct, and not one claim has falled apart. Its just we all do not understand everything completely. The Church has to teach us.

 

[Young_Thinker]

She is the mother of Jesus, GOD’s Word incarnate - not the GODHEAD. An amazing and beautiful example of an obedient servant to GOD.

Last time I go off topic-promise!!

Yes, Christ was obviously a part of God, so that title is accurate for Her. As a Catholic, I, of course, also believe in Her Immaculate Conception and Assumption. There is nothing in the Bible which contracdicts either of those doctrines.

 

[larkin31]

Yes, Christ was obviously a part of God, so that title is accurate for Her. As a Catholic, I, of course, also believe in Her Immaculate Conception and Assumption. There is nothing in the Bible which contracdicts either of those doctrines.

True. But there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the claim that every reference to her is a total fiction. Usually, one needs more than “I believe what I believe because the Bible does not address the topic.”

 

[otjm]

Yes, Christ was obviously a part of God, so that title is accurate for Her. As a Catholic, I, of course, also believe in Her Immaculate Conception and Assumption. There is nothing in the Bible which contracdicts either of those doctrines.

The topic of Mary is off topic for this thread and should go to another forum.

 

[Young_Thinker]

The topic of Mary is off topic for this thread and should go to another forum.

Forgive me; it was mentioned, and I kept talking about it.

 

[gretahope]

Gretahope, I know that for some reason no matter what I say, I seem to tick you off. But may I say that we all have our sufferings in this world. Speaking for myself I suffered deeply the last 15 years. I thought it would never end, my husband got cancer, my brother died, my baby died, my father in law died , then my Dad died. My suffering was death. God cured my husband but took the rest.

I know what it feels like, when you suffer you feel you are the only one in the world. And you want help, and fast. But its only after your ordeal that you come out of it a better stronger, compassionate person.

Suffering does different things to different people. Some people can hide it, others give it up completely to God and say take over, I trust you. Its when you say Okay God I quit, I have to let you take over, I am not that strong, that a miracle happens. He will!

And then you find peace, and love, and contentment. And you know you are where you need to be. People like us cannot give you the answers. Only God can. You are doing Gods work. What you are put here to do, and he is proud. You will see that someday.

You need a hug, you need a shoulder, you need a break. See in the book of Job. when I first read it, I kinda felt like Job, that God was picking on me or something.

But after all the pain, the suffering, the loss I felt something different. I learned that some how some way I did survive. Like you are right now. Everyday no matter how hard, how you think you could not survive, you did, and you will. And thats God carrying you, and you never knew it. Like Job he trusted God completely. Look at the end of Job, God gave him ten times more.

My Dad used to tell me when we suffer we are the chosen ones, we are blessed by God. I used to think, are you nuts. But I am getting it now. And sometime soon you will to. I promise. Hang in there. Better days are ahead.

Remember what the navy seals say. Our easy day was yesterday. Its gonna feel that way for awhile, but soon you will get more good days I promise. And when you get them you will enjoy the much more.

I am not ticked off at all. I appreciate your post. Thanks for the hug I’m so sorry about your losses! Although I have had some miscarriages I have never had a baby die after birth. My sister had an 8yr old die and I can’t imagine losing a birthed child—even tho I believe that my babies before birth are still babies…I just never got to meet them!
Yes, I guess embracing the suffering is key. I just can’t seem to reconcile the health issues here, and how stress affects health and how health issues that are not corrected can cause, say, death. I have one life-threatening illness, and one maybe almost. My doctor keeps telling me to watch my stress…well with my life that’s all but up to God. I simply cannot heal my sons, correct the fact that we have no income at this point, that we are simply trapped by some things that are kind of out of our control. Although I am taking my severest son and leaving for one month to a warmer climate to get some sanity…someone has to do something…and I have felt that God is saying to me, What are you waiting for.???..it’s OK to make decision and I will further direct you.

My marriage is in shreds and I can’t continue to just pretend it’s OK and slap a smile on my face. My husband has a heart condition and is not capable of much…and at times I feel like I cannot do it all. I am isolated in geography and cannot get to MASS weekly. My husband is not Catholic. It breaks my heart that I can’t go as often as I would like. It is what it IS, and I’m happy to take the offer of a relative that is paying for my tickets to visit and get my son and myself out of this muck and mire…thx,
I was in a foul mood when I responded to your earlier post…and I apologize for that! Brittle Type I diabetes brings on depressions and strangeness in reactions

 

[prodigal-sun]

I haven’t taken the time to read all the postings, so perhaps I am singing the same song as others.

The annulment process in the Catholic Church is a church-granted divorce, pure and simple.

 One illustration. A friend of mine married in the Catholic Church. Fine. They had a wonderful 20+ years of marriage, having three beautiful children. Then he was severely injured in an accident that made him bedridden most of the time. His wife was very sympathetic at first, but gradually began to see him as a burden, etc. She secured a divorce with the help of a clever lawyer.

  A couple years later she wanted to marry again - and have a Catholic wedding. She submitted her request to the church court, as it were. She made all sorts of false claims against her first husband and, with the help of a priest (a relative, actually), she was granted the annulment. Here they were, over 20 years married, three children, but because he was now an invalid the church granted her an annulment.

  What do you think of all this?

  My own experience is that the Catholic position on marriage has driven millions of divorced Catholics away, making many of them alienated and even angry. In most mainline Protestant churches the minister basically is given the authority to make a judgement call. Some clergy are stricter than others. I know a minister who would marry divorced persons but under such conditions as (1) knowing one another 6 months or longer; (2) taking care of children by first marriage through conscientious child support; (3) counseling before the second marriage; (4) involvement in some church; etc.

   The problem with the Catholic annulment is the prying into intimate matters between the couple, looking for deficiencies of one partner or the other. Millions of American get married in good faith, love, have children, but somewhere along the way the flame goes out and they divorce. Why is it that the church finds it so hard to forgive this 'sin' (if you will) while they seem to ready to forgive all manner of other sins.

Well then go back and read through this whole thread because all of your concerns, judgements , and foolish remarks have been answered and dealt with in prvious posts!

Peace!

 

[rinnie]

Hi Gretahope, no problem. We all get our foul moods. Its just the human in us. I like you never got to meet my baby, should have been more clearer on that, and like you thank God he never gave me that cross to carry. But I like you also know that I will meet that baby someday. That will be a great day. Thank-you for being so kind to me and my past problems when you have so many to deal with. God Bless you!

Let me give you a little Pappy story. One of my dads, no matter how bad things were, he would never let us fill sorry for ourself. even through I felt we are all aloud sometimes.

There was this guy, he walked into church and said God dear God please take this cross from me. I cannot carry it no longer. So GOd said come in. So the guy walked into the room. God said okay pick any other cross here you want. So the guy looked around and there were thousands of crosses one bigger then the next. Huge Crosses.

But there by the door was this real tiny cross. The man said I want that one. God said, that is the cross you walked in here with.

Yes that was a story from my dad. He said with God you can carry any Cross! ANd you are doing it my Love. You are living proof that it can be done.

But hey we gotta get back on op or Sister is going to come with the ruler again. SOrry.