Protestants and Holy Communion

[inkaneer]

Quote:
=inkaneer;9155561]Maybe its because Luther never used the term ‘consubstantiation’. But he believed that the Lord’s Supper was one of the central mysteries of the faith and that the body of Christ was physically present in the communion offering because Christ said, “This is my body.” Therefore, Christ’s body must be “with, in, and under” the elements of the offering. The bread and wine, however, do not change their substance, and, for Luther, there was no miracle of the mass in which the priest was thought to alter the substance of the sacrifice.

You don’t understand it because you come from a reference of a metaphysical description. That’s understandable. Sacramental Union is not a metaphysical construct. We understand the mystery as just that, a mystery. Christ said, "this [bread] is my body. And so it is.

If the Holy Spirit led the church to define Transsubstatiation in metaphysical terms then who am I, or you, or Luther to interpret it otherwise? To do so is the very thing Jesus warned us about when He spoke of the ‘traditions of men’.

Quote:
Call it what you will but Luther’s ideas, as well intentioned as they may have been, were wrong and were rejected by the church that Jesus said would be guided by the Holy Spirit. So who do we go with here? Do we go with a church with a 2,000 year history and which Jesus said would be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit and one He would remain with until the end of the age or do we go with a man who was a child abuse victim and who ran from parental authority as well as church authorrity?

The argument you provide here is not convincing. Certainly, Holy Orthodoxy has a 2,000 year history, and they do not describe the mystery in metaphysical terms.

So what? I will remind you that very early the Trinity was a mystery that was not descibed in metaphysical terms either. But we now understand the Trinity in terms of person, substance and essence. As for Orthodoxy all I can say is that with the exception of protestantism, they were responsible for all of the greatest heresies that beset the church. Even to this day Arianism is alive and well in some Orthodox communities. Maybe, just maybe, if they sought to define matters of belief then there would be less chance of erroneous beliefs. Furthermore, they later rejected the unity that they had accepted at the Council of Florence and it was not long after that the forces of Islam conquered Constantinople and the cathedral church of Orthodoxy was turned into an Islamic mosque. Is there a parallel there with the Old Testament Jewish Temple and the pagan sacrifices offered there? A lot of peole think so.

Quote:
You can come back any time. Nothing is stopping you but you.

Come back to where?

To where we were before Luther unleased his ‘tradition of men’ heresy.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

I see your point, and I am thinking that you are closer to the mark than my good friend Cinette, Christ promised a good number of things - and all of them designed to shake up the status quo:

1.) Division : Matt 10:34-36

2.) Not peace but the sword: Matt 10:34

3.) Being persecuted: John 15:20

While there are many aspects involving the Catholic Church’s corpora works of mercy being open to all - this really does not capture the essence of the Christian message: dying to self and living for Christ by following His commands and the example He has given to us. This is a message that is not widely received - although it may be widely scattered like the seeds in the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:1-23)

God bless

…actually, the Catholic Church threatens everybody:

• Believers because they must put self (ego) aside and submit to Christ as taught by His Church
• Non-Believers because they are left out in the cold (check out hollowood’s propaganda in the various films/tv shows: a god that kills/hates/controls/lies/betrays not only those who reject him but his own followers)
• Non-Christians because the Church professes that Salvation is only through Christ Jesus

…personally, I am bemused by the atheists who are so bent on eradicating God that they learn not only the Bible but Catholic Doctrine in an effort to convince the Believers that God does not exists! :juggle:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

I think you have inappropriately responded to Inkaneer and seriously misunderstood the Catechism in your ‘defense’ of calling your religion by a fictitious name: “evangelical catholic”.

We do form One Body through Baptism. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm But, it does not end there. Look at Romans 11:17-21

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,m 18do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.n 19Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.o 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either.

One must stay with the Vine in order to be considered part of it. A branch that leaves the Vine dies - and this is the clear message: rejoin the Vine or there is a serious risk of being cast away. If you think you have been ‘grafted’ to a cut-off branch - the challenge is to find a way to unite and then stay united to the Vine through cooperation with God’s Grace.

There really is no such thing as an ‘Evangelical Catholic’ who is really a Lutheran. Just like there is really no such thing as a fish that is also a fowl. Now, if you really believe Lutheranism is the way to Christ - be the best Lutheran you can be. But, if you are trying to pretend you are a Catholic - then that seems like a problem to me.

God bless

Obviously it is not a matter of my personal opinion, at least no moreso than yours. If the Catholic Catechism says:

This speaks of one body of Christ - the Church Catholic! And that our division, for which both sides are to blame (yes! your side and mine), ruptures the unity of the one holy catholic and Apostolic Church.

And,

If I am accepted as a brother, am I not part of the family?

And,

If my “ecclesial community” is used by His Spirit as a means of salvation (no salvation outside the Catholic Church), then,

the simplistic claim that I am not Catholic, though not in communion with the Bishop of Rome, is, in your words, fraudulent.

But let’s be clear here, my profile claims to be evangelical Catholic, and if that moniker bothers triumpalists on either side, so be it.

Jon

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC,

I think you have inappropriately responded to Inkaneer and seriously misunderstood the Catechism in your ‘defense’ of calling your religion by a fictitious name: “evangelical catholic”.

We do form One Body through Baptism. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm But, it does not end there. Look at Romans 11:17-21

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,m 18do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.n 19Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.o 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, [perhaps] he will not spare you either.

One must stay with the Vine in order to be considered part of it. A branch that leaves the Vine dies - and this is the clear message: rejoin the Vine or there is a serious risk of being cast away. If you think you have been ‘grafted’ to a cut-off branch - the challenge is to find a way to unite and then stay united to the Vine through cooperation with God’s Grace.

There really is no such thing as an ‘Evangelical Catholic’ who is really a Lutheran. Just like there is really no such thing as a fish that is also a fowl. Now, if you really believe Lutheranism is the way to Christ - be the best Lutheran you can be. But, if you are trying to pretend you are a Catholic - then that seems like a problem to me.

God bless

I’ll take your word for it, Tom.

A blessed Easter,
Jon

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jcrichton,

I see your point, and I am thinking that you are closer to the mark than my good friend Cinette, Christ promised a good number of things - and all of them designed to shake up the status quo:

1.) Division : Matt 10:34-36

2.) Not peace but the sword: Matt 10:34

3.) Being persecuted: John 15:20

While there are many aspects involving the Catholic Church’s corpora works of mercy being open to all - this really does not capture the essence of the Christian message: dying to self and living for Christ by following His commands and the example He has given to us. This is a message that is not widely received - although it may be widely scattered like the seeds in the Parable of the Sower (Matt 13:1-23)

God bless

Hi, Tom!

…yeah, Christ’s offer that we allow Him to carry our yoke while we carry His is really a trade that is hard to do for many since it requires that we both Trust Him exclusively and submit our wills to His… so it is not surprising that many staunch Believers (including Catholics) navegate away from such passages as you’ve quoted and tricky ones as “…if you Love Me, Obey My Commandments…”

…Christians must stop being more hearers of the Word than doers!

I pray that the Holy Spirit convicts us of our neglect and reluctancy so that He can rebuild us after God’s own Heart!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Abu]

Roy5 #13
In Matt. 25 I think I read that when Christ comes he will not judge on the basis of doctrine or church membership but - when did we see ye hungry? etc. That, to me, is the main essence of Christianity. I know this is heresy among traditional Catholics, but millions of Catholics - I believe - feel similarly. Many have been turned off because they feel that the church has majored in minors.

How quaint and erroneous – so the facts need to be seen. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21). “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Don’t you know that Catholics, through Christ’s Church “invented charity as we know it in the West”? She built Western Civilization. (See How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Thomas E Woods, Jr., Regnery, 2005).

Instead of “traditional Catholics” concentrate on Christ – His “main essence” is not only social teaching like feeding the hungry, but establishing His Church with His authority to teach us ALL of His commands.
Jesus of Nazareth gave four promises to Peter alone:

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Jesus mandates all eleven apostles: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

JonNC #117
Certainly, scripture is innerant, but human understanding can be.

Scripture is inerrant only because the Catholic Church gave us precisely what writings, and no others, comprise the Word of God, and only She has the authority to interpret the Sacred Scriptures which is why Protestant Bibles are missing 7 books, and there are some 40,000 different denominations – the result of private interpretation.

 

[Cinette]

How quaint and erroneous – so the facts need to be seen. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21). “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Don’t you know that Catholics, through Christ’s Church “invented charity as we know it in the West”? She built Western Civilization. (See How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Thomas E Woods, Jr., Regnery, 2005).

Instead of “traditional Catholics” concentrate on Christ – His “main essence” is not only social teaching like feeding the hungry, but establishing His Church with His authority to teach us ALL of His commands.
Jesus of Nazareth gave four promises to Peter alone:

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Jesus mandates all eleven apostles: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Scripture is inerrant only because the Catholic Church gave us precisely what writings, and no others, comprise the Word of God, and only She has the authority to interpret the Sacred Scriptures which is why Protestant Bibles are missing 7 books, and there are some 40,000 different denominations – the result of private interpretation.

*Abu you have stated the truth very clearly. I wonder why JonC fails to see it. I have given it much thought and conclude as I said above that he is like a fan (cheering his Lutheran club) or perhaps he is of the type who says "My Grandfather was Lutheran, my Father was Lutheran and so I am a Lutheran! What else? He cannot claim that the Lutherans have Apostolic succession or the deposit of faith - he can only deny the 1500 years that preceded the Reformation! That the Holy Spirit made a terrible mistake and that Jesus was not with His Church which he founded on Peter. How can John cheer our Popes John Paul and Benedict when he does not believe what they uphold is beyond me.

However I do believe that in his own incomprehensible way Jon is being sincere to his incomprehensible beliefs!

God bless all
Cinette*

 

[Abu]

Thank you, Cinette.
While Roy5 sees little of Christ’s great constructive edifice of truth within His Church, JonNC sees and understands much of that panorama of truth – what remains to complete the tapestry is what Christ’s Apostles teach:

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).”

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

To those who would not receive His representatives proclaiming His teaching He said: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say unto you it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.”
[Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude, Ignatius Press, 1995, p 189-190].

And the promise was fulfilled: I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

St. Clement died about 80 A.D., some 20 years before the last Apostle, St. John, died. Although St. John was still alive in Ephesus, which was much closer to Corinth than was Rome, the Corinthians appealed to the Bishop of Rome because he had the “keys” of authority. Pope Clement wrote to the Church at Corinth: “You, there who laid the foundation of the rebellion, submit to the presbyters and be chastened to repentance, bending your knees in a spirit of humility.” (First Letter To The Corinthians, 57, 1; Jurgens, p. 12.)

Rejection of any doctrine of the Catholic Church is anathema to Christ Himself, as we saw in post #126.

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

Precisely – so it is with sadness that we view any rejection of that unity of faith and morals through Christ’s Supreme Vicar, while we hope and pray for that unity.

 

[Cinette]

Thank you, Cinette.
While Roy5 sees little of Christ’s great constructive edifice of truth within His Church, JonNC sees and understands much of that panorama of truth – what remains to complete the tapestry is what Christ’s Apostles teach:

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” small correction - (1 Tim 3:15)

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

To those who would not receive His representatives proclaiming His teaching He said: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say unto you it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.”
[Fr Thomas Dubay, *Faith And Certitude

, Ignatius Press, 1995, p 189-190].

And the promise was fulfilled: I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

St. Clement died about 80 A.D., some 20 years before the last Apostle, St. John, died. Although St. John was still alive in Ephesus, which was much closer to Corinth than was Rome, the Corinthians appealed to the Bishop of Rome because he had the “keys” of authority. Pope Clement wrote to the Church at Corinth: “You, there who laid the foundation of the rebellion, submit to the presbyters and be chastened to repentance, bending your knees in a spirit of humility.” (First Letter To The Corinthians, 57, 1; Jurgens, p. 12.)

Rejection of any doctrine of the Catholic Church is anathema to Christ Himself, as we saw in post #126.

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

Precisely – so it is with sadness that we view any rejection of that unity of faith and morals through Christ’s Supreme Vicar, while we hope and pray for that unity.

 

[RyanBlack]

Quote:
=inkaneer;9155561] As for Orthodoxy all I can say is that with the exception of protestantism, they were responsible for all of the greatest heresies that beset the church. Even to this day Arianism is alive and well in some Orthodox communities. Maybe, just maybe, if they sought to define matters of belief then there would be less chance of erroneous beliefs. Furthermore, they later rejected the unity that they had accepted at the Council of Florence and it was not long after that the forces of Islam conquered Constantinople and the cathedral church of Orthodoxy was turned into an Islamic mosque. Is there a parallel there with the Old Testament Jewish Temple and the pagan sacrifices offered there? A lot of peole think so.

What is it with you and your hatred for the Orthodox-one, which, BTW, the leadership of the Catholic Church does not share, and rather, actually repudiates?

Where is your evidence of Arianism being alive and well in some Orthodox communities? Provide the evidence or retract this absurd claim. BTW, is is absurd to blame the Orthodox for Arianism, and all the other heresies that arose in the East, since it was the Orthodox faithful in the East who combatted and defeated these heresies. Arianism, for example, continued and thrived in the West far longer than it did in the East. The great defenders of the faith against Arianism were St. Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers (all Eastern); against Apollinarianism and the heresy of the Pneumatomachoi it was the Cappadocian Fathers (Eastern); against Nestorianism it was St. Cyril of Alexandria (Eastern); against Monothelitism it was St. Maximus the Confessor (Eastern).

Finally, let’s drop these absurd claim about the conversion of the Hagia Sophia, which you have erroneously referred to as the Church of the Holy Spirit (Sophia means wisdom, not spirit), into a mosque as amounting to divine retribution. If that’s the case, then what are the sins of Rome for which the annihilation of Christianity in northern Africa by Islam and the conversion of Catholic Churches into Protestant places of heretical worship are divine retribution? What is really behind this other than your obvious contempt for our Orthodox brethren?

 

[bmonk]

Ah, but consider that chapter. It is set at Passover (John 6:4), Jesus “takes, blesses, (breaks), and gives” the bread to the assembly (6:11), and the disciples gather up the “fragments” left over (6:12, 13–the very same word used for the fragments of the Eucharist). After the meal, the disciples, and then Jesus cross over the sea (another Passover reference). He then speaks extensively on the Bread of Life (6:26-58). All of these point to the Last Supper. More, when we get to the Last Supper in Chapter 13, there is no reference to the bread as body (or wine as blood)–unlike the other three Gospels, and even Paul in 1 Cor 11, that all happens here. If this is not some sort of reflection or commentary on the Last Supper, I don’t know what it is.

And this is not a minor point. If it does refer to the Last Supper, the sort of language Jesus uses: eat and drink, plus a different form of eat: munch or chew or gnaw, the substantial presence does reach the physical human experience. It is more than symbolic. We are totally involved, not just mind or spirit, but body also.

God does not just save us as spirits or minds, he saves us a whole human persons, body and soul and spirit. And, therefore, human realities, such as the divisions we have caused in our churches, do matter.

As I was preparing upcoming readings for homilies, I noticed another point: The beginning of the Chapter uses language of Passover: Jesus crosses the sea followed by the crowd (as Moses did), and then goes up the mountain. All of this happens when “the Jewish feas of Passover was near.” Then, he has the people “recline” for the feast–another reference to the Passover, still remembered in the “Four Questions” that mark Passover as different from all other nights. Only then does the language shift to Eucharistic language, as noted above.

Given that, what particular meal marks this shift from Passover to Eucharist? Historically, only one: the Last Supper.

 

[JonNC]

=Cinette;9159876]Abu you have stated the truth very clearly. I wonder why JonC fails to see it. I have given it much thought and conclude as I said above that he is like a fan (cheering his Lutheran club) or perhaps he is of the type who says "My Grandfather was Lutheran, my Father was Lutheran and so I am a Lutheran! What else?

Is it possible, Cinette, that I confess the Augsburg Confession? Or do I really appear as shallow as what you state above? If I do, then I have done a terrible job of expressing myself.

He cannot claim that the Lutherans have Apostolic succession or the deposit of faith - he can only deny the 1500 years that preceded the Reformation! That the Holy Spirit made a terrible mistake and that Jesus was not with His Church which he founded on Peter.

Is it possible that I can accept as authoritative the 7 general councils of the early Church, and the Three Creeds, and reject all that happened for the 1st 1500 years of the Church?
Again, do I really come accross that shallow?

How can John cheer our Popes John Paul and Benedict when he does not believe what they uphold is beyond me.

Why would I have to believe everything they say in order to recognize the greatness of their faith and leadership?

However I do believe that in his own incomprehensible way Jon is being sincere to his incomprehensible beliefs!

Thanks, I think.

God bless all

And you as well.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Abu,

Well said!

While I am not sure about the ‘quaintness’ here … I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

God bless

How quaint and erroneous – so the facts need to be seen. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21). “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Don’t you know that Catholics, through Christ’s Church “invented charity as we know it in the West”? She built Western Civilization. (See How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Thomas E Woods, Jr., Regnery, 2005).

Instead of “traditional Catholics” concentrate on Christ – His “main essence” is not only social teaching like feeding the hungry, but establishing His Church with His authority to teach us ALL of His commands.
Jesus of Nazareth gave four promises to Peter alone:

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Jesus mandates all eleven apostles: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Scripture is inerrant only because the Catholic Church gave us precisely what writings, and no others, comprise the Word of God, and only She has the authority to interpret the Sacred Scriptures which is why Protestant Bibles are missing 7 books, and there are some 40,000 different denominations – the result of private interpretation.

 

[Cinette]

Is it possible, Cinette, that I confess the Augsburg Confession? Or do I really appear as shallow as what you state above? If I do, then I have done a terrible job of expressing myself.

*I fail to understand how you cannot see and acknowledge the irreparable harm Luther did to Christianity. I cannot understand your staunch loyalty to such a man!
*
Is it possible that I can accept as authoritative the 7 general councils of the early Church, and the Three Creeds, and reject all that happened for the 1st 1500 years of the Church? It is inconceivable and doesn’t make any sense.
Again, do I really come accross that shallow? *Despite your inconceivable reasoning I can only say that I believe that you believe in your sincerity! It is very hard. *

Why would I have to believe everything they say in order to recognize the greatness of their faith and leadership?They represent truth - they occupied/occupy the seat of Peter - they were/are the representatives of the Church here on earth. They were appointed by God to take care of the flock! How can you deny that?

 

[jcrichton]

Hi…

I do my best to read through every post on each thread that I join… I attempt to address issues dealing with Scriptures and the Catholic Faith…

…at times I’m not as patient as I should be (nor as charitable)… but I do make great efforts to not engage in circular arguments or personal confrontations… though I must admit that I do throw my weight around, just a little…

…without passing judgment, I think that some of the last posts on this thread are getting us nowhere… I suggest that the next volley be made as concise and as pertinent as possible… too many tangents can wreck more than just nerves…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Huiou_Theou]

*I understand Jesus to mean true flesh and true blood. *

I agree, although the theology of St. Thomas concerning the appearances (accidentals) and the substance were not both made dogmatic; and his struggle (and partial failure) to understand is also ours;

There still is some Catholic freedom to understand the “atoms” and other physical attributes of the bread and wine as remaining under normal acts of trans-substantiation. eg; That is, we are not restricted to believing what is seen is an “optical” illusion with something from 2000 years ago “substituted” underneath.
Our understanding changes, because the WHO and WHAT that holds the soma/corpus of bread in existence goes from impersonal/indirect – to a person and their Spirit.

Spiritual food to me would be grace.

Yes, that is correct.

 

[JonNC]

=Cinette;9163547]
*I fail to understand how you cannot see and acknowledge the irreparable harm Luther did to Christianity. I cannot understand your staunch loyalty to such a man!
*

Irreparable? That seems a rather low opinion of the power of the Holy Spirit. That said, he had an huge amount of help from some folks in Rome at the time.

It is inconceivable and doesn’t make any sense.

So, what teachings of the historic Church am I aloud to agree with then.

*Despite your inconceivable reasoning I can only say that I believe that you believe in your sincerity! It is very hard. *

Alas, your belief that I am sincere doesn’t answer the question as to whether you think I am shallow.

Why would I have to believe everything they say in order to recognize the greatness of their faith and leadership?They represent truth - they occupied/occupy the seat of Peter - they were/are the representatives of the Church here on earth. They were appointed by God to take care of the flock! How can you deny that?

I only question that they have universal jurisdiction or infallibility ex cathedra.

Jon

 

[Abu]

JonNC #137
I only question that they have universal jurisdiction or infallibility ex cathedra.

That’s where you deny Christ who gave His authority to Peter and His successors (post #126).

Christ, Himself, warned “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17)
St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

But Christ is not enough; St Paul’s clear understanding is not enough for the new oracle JonNC.

St. Paul has counseled us as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

Thus Christ’s own know the pitfalls of selfism.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

As you know, Catholics believe two things about the Eucharist that are really critical to a genuine understanding of this Mystery of Faith:

1.) Only a duly ordained priest acting within his competence can consecrate ordinary bread and wine, to be both valid and licit.

2.) The Consecrated Host is the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ hidden under the appearance of Bread and Wine.

There was no Apostolic Succession through Luther or via any 16th Century followers of Luther or any of the others who revolted from the Catholic Church - except initially for the Anglicans, but this did not last long because of the desire to totally break with the Catholic Church.

And, that appears to be where the disagreement lies (at least for this specific thread )… well, at least as I see it. Lutherans (and a few others) have developed their own traditions and customs specific to what they call communion. But, lacking Apostolic Succession - and this would be through the consecration by a bishop of a man to be an ordained priest, there is no valid minister of the Sacrament. And, lacking a valid minister, all that is taking place is (hopefully) an edifying experience.

Now, I would be curious as to why you claim to believe the seven early church councils and three creeds - and stop there. Now, I can only guess that you are including the very first council, the Council of Jerusalem (c. 66AD) and then from there I think the order is:

1st Council of Nicaea 325AD
1st Council of Constantinople 381AD
Council of Ephesus 431AD
Council of Chalcedon 453AD
2nd Council of Constantinople 553
3rd Council of Constantinople 680AD and if the Council of Jerusalem is not counted, then
2nd Council of Nicaea 787

So, why stop there?

God bless

Irreparable? That seems a rather low opinion of the power of the Holy Spirit. That said, he had an huge amount of help from some folks in Rome at the time.

So, what teachings of the historic Church am I aloud to agree with then.

Alas, your belief that I am sincere doesn’t answer the question as to whether you think I am shallow.

I only question that they have universal jurisdiction or infallibility ex cathedra.

Jon

 

[Cinette]

Irreparable? That seems a rather low opinion of the power of the Holy Spirit. That said, he had an huge amount of help from some folks in Rome at the time.

So, what teachings of the historic Church am I aloud to agree with then.

Alas, your belief that I am sincere doesn’t answer the question as to whether you think I am shallow.

I only question that they have universal jurisdiction or infallibility ex cathedra.

Jon
*Yes I firmly believe that Luther is responsible for a HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE to Christianity and it continues to this day. One sees thousands of Protestant denominations which continue to increase to this day, all as a consequence of Luther’s actions. He attacked the scriptures denying James’ epistles which is part of the Canon. He thought he was more powerful than the Pope - in fact, he was his own “pope”.

I think you are misguided. I do not believe you are shallow. You love the Lord, I believe that - I believe that you care very much about your beliefs (although some are erroneous). I cannot call you shallow in any way. You are absolutely wrong in many of your statements - yes!

*