Protestants and Invincible Ignorance

[Third_Day]

On another thread there was the discussion about Protestants and unbelievers and whether or not they can commit a mortal sin since it is possible that they do not have full knowledge of mortal sin as do Catholics and can therefore claim invincible ignorance and not be held culpable

It seems to me that “Invincible” ignorance is over used.

Why did Pius IX use the word “invincible” to begin with? He could have just said those who are ignorant. It seems to me that he chose invincible to show how narrow this exception really is.
Invincible is something that cannot be penetrated like an invincible fortress. Few people will remain ignorant when presented with the truth unless they freely choose to. Just because you believe that once you are saved you are saved doesn’t mean that you are immune from damnation because you really didn’t know you were committing a mortal sin.

I would like to discuss this scripture from Jude 1:7
“……Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

If anyone could claim invincible ignorance it would be these people. This was before Jesus Christ. This was before the Ten Commandments. This was before missionaries brought the gospel YET somehow these people had “full “knowledge and knew they were committing a “grave” offense and did it willingly.

Yet today many believe that Protestants and others (and even ignorant Catholics) are saved because they are somehow invincibly ignorant, in other words, through no fault of their own they don’t know they are committing a grave sin.
How is that possible when Jude tells us the punishment of Sodom and surrounding cities was as an example to us? How could they be punished with hell fire yet those living today are not culpable because, somehow, through no fault of their own they are not culpable?

 

[Indifferently]

Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[kimg901]

From what I know, “Invincible Ignorance” applies to people that have never heard of Gods Words (Truth) through no fault of their own. People that have heard of His Words yet deny it cannot claim “Invincible Ignorance”

 

[PJM]

=Third Day;10554509]On another thread there was the discussion about Protestants and unbelievers and whether or not they can commit a mortal sin since it is possible that they do not have full knowledge of mortal sin as do Catholics and can therefore claim invincible ignorance and not be held culpable

It seems to me that “Invincible” ignorance is over used.

Why did Pius IX use the word “invincible” to begin with? He could have just said those who are ignorant. It seems to me that he chose invincible to show how narrow this exception really is.
Invincible is something that cannot be penetrated like an invincible fortress. Few people will remain ignorant when presented with the truth unless they freely choose to. Just because you believe that once you are saved you are saved doesn’t mean that you are immune from damnation because you really didn’t know you were committing a mortal sin.

I would like to discuss this scripture from Jude 1:7
“……Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

If anyone could claim invincible ignorance it would be these people. This was before Jesus Christ. This was before the Ten Commandments. This was before missionaries brought the gospel YET somehow these people had “full “knowledge and knew they were committing a “grave” offense and did it willingly.

Yet today many believe that Protestants and others (and even ignorant Catholics) are saved because they are somehow invincibly ignorant, in other words, through no fault of their own they don’t know they are committing a grave sin.
How is that possible when Jude tells us the punishment of Sodom and surrounding cities was as an example to us? How could they be punished with hell fire yet those living today are not culpable because, somehow, through no fault of their own they are not culpable?

There may be a wee-bit of 'wiggle- room" there for their lack of cupability. BUT God has written on ALL OF OUR HEARTS what is “right and wrong.” He’ll accept true ignorance but not lazyness.

Further is the issue of INTRINSIC EVILS

AND the Bible Clearly [even in the King James which I was looking at just moments ago] speaks precisely and clearly of “Sins UNTO TO [spiritual] Death” 1 John 5: 16-17 . It then becomes Incumbent on them, just like us to FIND OUT exactly what God means.

God WILL, bcause God MUST [Fair; Perfect and Just] make Judgment not on what we know; NOT on what we chose to believe BUT on what He Our God makes POSSIBLE for us to know. Amen:thumbsup:

 

[MillyMay]

If you do a search in the ask an apologist section, you’ll see that you haven’t quite hit it. II can also apply to those who were, say, brought up in a very staunch protestant or atheist household, in such a way where they simply emotionally CAN’T understand the truth of Catholicism.

 

[aspirant]

it is possible that they do not have full knowledge of mortal sin

I don’t think a developed concept of or belief in “mortal sin” is necessary to in order to know that an action such as murder or adultery is gravely wrong. Most of the Protestants I know have a pretty good grip on that.

While there are some actions the Catholic Church would recognize as gravely wrong that Protestants may or may not recognize as gravely wrong, such as contraception, there is no doubt in many other cases, such as the ones mentioned above.

Invincible is something that cannot be penetrated like an invincible fortress.

I think that’s probably an overstatement. To continue your metaphor, I don’t think it means the fortress itself is invincible but rather that the would-be invaders lack the means (tools, skills, whatever) necessary to penetrate it.

Bringing it back to the real world:

Someone to whom St. Paul directly preached the Gospel could not honestly claim he had “never heard of Jesus.” Someone living in Japan a few years after the resurrection, however, could honestly claim he had never heard of Jesus. Jee— who? What??? The latter would be a case of invincible ignorance: It’s not that no one anywhere could know who Jesus is, as if his identity was some impregnable fortress, it’s that some people lacked the means to know who Jesus is.

Some cases, of course, are not so easily figured out. When Paul preached in Athens, some people thought he was preaching about a couple of new gods named Jesus and Resurrection. They heard of Jesus, but they don’t appear to have understood what Paul was talking about. Could they have understood? If they had paid closer attention, maybe they would have. But maybe they lacked an adequate mental framework or preparation, so to speak, to really understand that particular address no matter how well they listened. Or maybe they found Paul’s accent or the common language difficult to understand. We don’t really know whether their ignorance was invincible or not. God knows, we leave that to him to discern.

If anyone could claim invincible ignorance it would be {the people of Sodom}. This was before Jesus Christ. This was before the Ten Commandments. This was before missionaries brought the gospel YET somehow these people had “full “knowledge and knew they were committing a “grave” offense and did it willingly.

As I mentioned above, I don’t think a developed concept of or belief in “mortal sin” is necessary to in order to know that an action such as murder or adultery is gravely wrong. Or, since we’re talking about Sodom, rape. I think it’s possible even for people “before the Ten Commandments” to figure out that rape is not only a bad thing, but a gravely bad thing.

Yet today many believe that Protestants and others (and even ignorant Catholics) are saved because they are somehow invincibly ignorant, in other words, through no fault of their own they don’t know they are committing a grave sin.

I can’t speak for the people you mention here, but the Protestants I know are very inclined to repenting and confessing the sins they’re aware of committing and asking for God’s forgiveness and mercy. I would think that if they are saved, it will be because they are eagerly receiving and cooperating with God’s grace to the extent they know how.

How is that possible when Jude tells us the punishment of Sodom and surrounding cities was as an example to us?

Did the people of Sodom repent?

 

[georget]

To whom much is given, much will be required.

 

[Publisher]

“Man looks on the outward appearce, but God looks upon the heart.” I will stand in confidence on That Day, because I know the One who knows me best, and loves me most is the One I stand before. I am in Good Hands.

 

[tomasocarthaigh]

I fear God will have a good snigger at us over contraception, I dont recall anywhere in the NT where the subject was broached, and even mb was an Old Testament hang up.

By using the withrawal method, we do exactly what contraception does, stops pregnancy as a result of sex. Fact.

Its where contraception is used to give a free for all sleeping around culture that it is wrong.

I think that’s the education we will get on reaching the pearly gates, while all those who secretly used common sense contraception within and without of marraige will be looking out at them from within!!!

But sure, being human, what would I know!!! ;-D

 

[PeterJohn]

I fear God will have a good snigger at us over contraception, I dont recall anywhere in the NT where the subject was broached, and even mb was an Old Testament hang up.

By using the withrawal method, we do exactly what contraception does, stops pregnancy as a result of sex. Fact.

Its where contraception is used to give a free for all sleeping around culture that it is wrong.

I think that’s the education we will get on reaching the pearly gates, while all those who secretly used common sense contraception within and without of marraige will be looking out at them from within!!!

But sure, being human, what would I know!!! ;-D

Tomas, those who use contraception outside of marriage are in grave danger unless they repent and seek confession.

Who are any of us to raise ourselves to the level where we could argue with the magisterium of the church?? We do not hold the God given authority to bind and loose as does the successor of St. Peter. Without this authority we would all descend into chaos and be divided amongst ourselves. Who are the sheep to question the shepherd? I for one would rather cling to the teachings of the Church then to stand and say “I knew better then those you left to shepherd me”

If you believe what the Catholic Church claims to be then have no fear. If you reject this claim, then you reject He who sent them.

 

[Third_Day]

If you do a search in the ask an apologist section, you’ll see that you haven’t quite hit it.** II can also apply** to those who were, say, brought up in a very staunch protestant or atheist household, in such a way where they simply emotionally CAN’T understand the truth of Catholicism.

So because they can’t understand the “truth” they are invincibly ignorant and therefore not culpable?
But how do you explain Jude? Those in Sodom never heard a word of the Gospel, the Ten Commandments didn’t exist yet so therefore they shouldn’t have been culpable YET apparently they were held culpable. How much more will people be held culpable today? I just don’t see how anyone can claim invincible ignorance in light of Jude and the punishment of Sodom

 

[Third_Day]

Did the people of Sodom repent?

How would they know they needed to repent? The Ten Commandments did not exist. Did any of them hear anything about repentance? No missionaries were sent to preach the Gospel.

If not culpable “through no fault of their own” applies to anyone who has ever lived then surely it applies to those in Sodom YET they were destroyed.

My point is that I constantly hear that people today are not at fault for living in mortal sin because they don’t have “full knowledge” and therefore cannot be culpable BUT those in Sodom somehow had "full " knowledge without ever hearing a word of the Gospel and they are burning in eternal fire.

In light of Jude I don’t see how anyone can claim invincible ignorance “through no fault of their own.”

 

[MillyMay]

So because they can’t understand the “truth” they are invincibly ignorant and therefore not culpable?
But how do you explain Jude? Those in Sodom never heard a word of the Gospel, the Ten Commandments didn’t exist yet so therefore they shouldn’t have been culpable YET apparently they were held culpable. How much more will people be held culpable today? I just don’t see how anyone can claim invincible ignorance in light of Jude and the punishment of Sodom

Wow, glad to see you know better than 2,000 years of Catholic Church history and you think every single person in the entire world is going to hell : D

 

[travelmap12]

Chúc b?n cu?i tu?n vui v? bÃ*i c?a b?n hay quá coment d? các b?n khác còn d?c hi

 

[PJM]

=PeterJohn;10554975]Tomas, those who use contraception outside of marriage are in grave danger unless they repent and seek confession.

Who are any of us to raise ourselves to the level where we could argue with the magisterium of the church?? We do not hold the God given authority to bind and loose as does the successor of St. Peter. Without this authority we would all descend into chaos and be divided amongst ourselves. Who are the sheep to question the shepherd? I for one would rather cling to the teachings of the Church then to stand and say “I knew better then those you left to shepherd me”

If you believe what the Catholic Church claims to be then have no fear. If you reject this claim, then you reject He who sent them.

WELL DONE Peter John!

 

[aspirant]

How would they know they needed to repent? The Ten Commandments did not exist.

The Ten Commandments did not teach people to repent sin. Repentance was not a new concept in the time of Moses, and plenty of people without biblical revelation understand and practice the concept.

No missionaries were sent to preach the Gospel.

Catholicism does not teach that people need to have heard the Gospel preached in order to repent and be saved. In fact, the Church teaches “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

Sodom was destroyed because the people did not “seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.” They could have done this, as other people can also do.

The only one who truly knows whether other people are doing this is God. You cannot claim to know when other people commit gravely wrong actions with full knowledge and deliberate consent. God knows that better even than the people themselves.

I constantly hear that people today are not at fault for living in mortal sin because they don’t have “full knowledge”

You and I don’t really know what other people know. We are not mind readers.

those in Sodom somehow had "full " knowledge

They were capable of knowing that rape was not only evil, but gravely evil, and they chose it anyway.

 

[Sirach2]

**How would they know they needed to repent? **The Ten Commandments did not exist. Did any of them hear anything about repentance? No missionaries were sent to preach the Gospel.

Man is without excuse, as we read in Paul’s epistle to the Romans. Why? Because God has written His law on our hearts, and all men will be judged on how they follow this natural law in their conscience.

Romans 2:12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them